Why do people buy "Apple" computers?

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Flatline

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2001
1,248
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I have to say that I find it amusing that some of the Mac advocates in this thread have mentioned that Apple is good and Intel and IBM are evil...
Who do you people think makes those nifty PowerPC processors? IT'S NOT APPLE :D

Basically, what I've seen for the most part in this thread is that Mac advocates are saying that they are more comfortable with Macs; I don't see anything wrong with that.

As far as the "stability" quips go, it's a unix-based OS ('nixes tend to be extremely stable unless the user does something really stupid); I'm writing this on my SuSE 8.1 machine at home, which hasn't crashed-ever. It didn't crash before SuSE 8.1, when it had RedHat on it. My Windows 2000 machine doesn't crash (although I have had one lockup due to a bug in a game...installed a patch for their poorly written software and it hasn't crashed since).

I've also seen a lot of people saying that Macs are great if all you want to do is surf the 'net, get email, etc. If that's all you want, then RedHat, Mandrake, SuSE, WinXP, or Win2000 would work just as easily (and much cheaper).

If you prefer Macs, that's great; it's not my thing, but if it makes you more productive then go with it.

One caveat: I would like to try out a Mac notebook. So many people love them that it makes me curious ;)
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,196
3,829
136
There are two reasons people use/buy Macs today:

1. Interia - They are used to what they are using and upgrade to the same type of system.

2. Many new computer users are brainwashed by Mac user about how much easier the Mac is to use.


The reason I say brainwashed in #2 is because, a few years ago, the Mac was easier to use.

Back in the days of Windows 3.11, the PC platform was pretty difficult for the beginner computer user, and things were constantly changing. There is no doubt in my mind that the Mac was the better computer then.

During the Win95/98 days the Mac was still better but MS has narrowed the gap considerably. Plug and Play was starting to work, the OS was much more user friendly.

Now, with Win2000 and XP I think the OS playing field has been pretty much leveled. And when you consider the enormous amount of quality software and hardware available for the PC you have to begin to realize that the balance of power has shifted.

I have yet to have my current Dell system crash. Granted it's only a few months old but I have it doing a lot of things, primary among them is editing video and burning DVD's.

I have not had extensive experience with OS X, please tell me what it does so much better than Win2000 Pro or XP Pro?

XP has been doing exactly what it is supposed to for me - STAYING OUT OF MY WAY AND LETTING ME WORK!

 

Pauli

Senior member
Oct 14, 1999
836
0
0
Originally posted by: Eug.... (And the funny thing is I'm not even a computer techie. :p)...

Ummm, Eug, I think you're in denial. Dude...you have over 6000 posts on Anandtech!
 

Pauli

Senior member
Oct 14, 1999
836
0
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Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
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5. Wintel and IBM are evil. Apple is good. (The people I have known who run Macs seemed to have a moral issue with PCs)

This is the biggest untruth of all the rhetoric. It was Apple that forced the customer to use Apple or Apple approved and licensed software, development tools, and hardware. They have exclusive dealerships and restrictive advertising, using strong arm tactics for those who do not obey. Granted, Microsoft and Intel use cutthroat competitive practices of their own, but the fact of the matter is that anyone can develop hardware and software for the Wintel platform and users have incredible freedom of choice. Of course, they sometimes pay for that choice because things sometimes don't work well together when introducing new hardware or software on the PC, but at least there is choice. Apple software and peripherals are under much tighter control and therefore work together better with fewer incompatibilities.

I'm not saying that Apples business practices are necessarily bad -- in fact, I think their approach deserves praise. I just think that people who use this argument are misguided. If Apple had 90% share of the desktop market, everyone would be hating them too. Remember, IBM used to be the big, bad, evil force in the desktop market. Now, how are they thought of? They're hardly an afterthought anymore. Lotus and Ashton-Tate as well.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,165
1,809
126
I have not had extensive experience with OS X, please tell me what it does so much better than Win2000 Pro or XP Pro?
Well, I would suggest trying it out. You may not like OS X and that's fine, but personally I find the OS makes more sense, despite the fact I grew up on Windows. Some examples:

Installing software (if done correctly) is simply dragging the directory off the install disc to the hard drive. Indeed, strangely enough, that's how you install Microsoft's Office v.X.

When I close the lid on my laptop, the machine shuts off and goes to sleep. When I open the lid, it starts back again within about 5 seconds, precisely where I left off.

Every app can save files as .pdf files, because it's a native format of the OS.

Auto fall-back of network interfaces is cool. My primary network is wireless, but 10/100/1000 is my secondary. When I'm not near a wireless access point I just plug in Ethernet... and it just works. No need to adjust the config settings.

I can mount the hard drives from other Macs via Firewire. eg. If I plug a Firewire cable into both my TiBook and my iBook, I can reboot one of the computers while holding down the "T" key. That computer goes into Firewire mode and its drive simply gets seen as any other Firewire drive mounted on the other computer. Faster than 100 Mbps Ethernet (and much faster than current Windows and Mac implementations of Firewire networking), without need for removing a drive.

This is a software issue, but contextual menus (ie. right clicking or ctrl-clicking) seem to be better on Macs. I find often in Windows far too many things are crammed into the right click menu. I suppose because the Mac OS tends to be built around one button, it's easier to access the main features via that one button, with more select stuff in the right button contextual menus. I have no problems using my single button on my track pad for my laptops, whereas using a single button on a Windows XP would be much more difficult.

Disk images. OS X prefers works with disk images instead of stuff like zip files. To backup a CD or create a new archive you just use the built-in disc image function. You can then mount them and they get seen as any other hard drive and can be partitioned and formatted, etc. This is similar to Drive Image in Nero, but simpler, and built into the OS. However, if you want, you can use .zip files or .sit files.

External displays are much better supported. It's built into the OS and simply works. Sometimes I find myself fighting with ATI or nVidia drivers to get dual displays working as they should. Although usually not necessary, sometimes in XP or 2000 a reboot after plugging the second display in helps. This is not needed in OS X, ever. Plus I think my laptop is in the only laptop line in existence with DVI output. DVI is sweet. :)

I hate AOL, but Apple's AIM client is actually quite nice.

iDVD I'm told is the best consumer level home DVD authoring program in existence. I've made picture books with iPhoto (great for gifts), and iPhoto has ultra easy image web site creation. And I don't even like iPhoto (free) that much, but it's certainly better than most inexpensive image software I've seen on the Windows side.

I don't deal with it much, but others love the underlying Unix backbone, with full Unix compatibility, without the difficult ergonomics of Linux. What I do use is SMB to mount Windows drives over the network, and I may start using CUPS.

P.S. People using only Win 98/ME, NT, and OS 9 and who haven't checked out anything else, should really check what's available these days. Win 98/ME and OS 9 are yesterday's technology, and have long since been left behind by Win XP and OS X.2. Although NT may be useful in the legacy corporate realm, NT is simply useless on the home desktop. Indeed, one of the reasons I bring my laptop to work several times a week is because half the stuff I need to use doesn't even work in NT, but my workplace is NT-only. I won't lump Linux in with Win 98 or OS 9, since Linux is much more powerful, but I find the usability of Linux terrible for those without a lot of hardcore computer experience. It's truly a geek OS, built by computer geeks for computer geeks, and not ready for the Joe Shmoe mainstream user. If you really want to though, you can simply install PPC Linux on a Mac. Being a non-*nix person, I'm not sure I see the point though since OS X.2 is already Unix.

I think a dual pentium 3.2 Ghz machine or amd 2800+, or opteron when it comes out would be pretty nice for mac heads, I would think the faithful would like it instead of being sutck with slow processors.
I personally don't care what chips my Macs use, but as it stands now the OS and software are simply incompatible with x86 chips (if you exclude Darwin). So it's not even an option to switch to a P4.

5. Wintel and IBM are evil. Apple is good. (The people I have known who run Macs seemed to have a moral issue with PCs)
Apple is far from being anti-IBM, since lots of Macs these days use IBM chips. iMacs use them, as do iBooks. And probably next year we'll see IBM-based PowerMacs. If your friends are anti-IBM then then they should boycott Apple because their logic simply makes no sense. As for Microsoft, the best office suite for Mac is Office v.X, and MS Internet Explorer ships with EVERY Mac. You can't even say that with Intel/AMD machines.

By the way, it almost seems to me that home PC builders never buy software. :p People compare prices but don't include any software in that price, and often don't even include the OS cost.

In the end, I'm not saying Macs are perfect. If they were, I wouldn't own both Macs and Windows machines. However, I am just pointing out that some of the opinions voiced about Macs are simply due to lack of information and experience with the Mac hardware and software.

Ummm, Eug, I think you're in denial. Dude...you have over 6000 posts on Anandtech!
Heheh. True. What I meant was that I don't work with computers for a living.

This is the biggest untruth of all the rhetoric. It was Apple that forced the customer to use Apple or Apple approved and licensed software, development tools, and hardware. They have exclusive dealerships and restrictive advertising, using strong arm tactics for those who do not obey. Granted, Microsoft and Intel use cutthroat competitive practices of their own, but the fact of the matter is that anyone can develop hardware and software for the Wintel platform and users have incredible freedom of choice.
Actually, anybody can write software for Apple. They don't have to be "Apple approved"

Apple software and peripherals are under much tighter control and therefore work together better with fewer incompatibilities.
And that's why I like it. On the Wintel side I try to stay away from bargain basement stuff because much of it is crap. I try to buy the higher end components, not just because they're better quality, but also because they seem to be better tested with other components and with the OS. On the Apple side, that's largely already a given, since Apple controls much of the hardware as you said.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: Hulk
There are two reasons people use/buy Macs today:

1. Interia - They are used to what they are using and upgrade to the same type of system.

2. Many new computer users are brainwashed by Mac user about how much easier the Mac is to use.

Or they have a legitimate use for one, they like diversity, they find learning an extremely fun activity, they do not want to deal with the hassle of making Windows usable for their environment, etc.


The reason I say brainwashed in #2 is because, a few years ago, the Mac was easier to use.

Back in the days of Windows 3.11, the PC platform was pretty difficult for the beginner computer user, and things were constantly changing. There is no doubt in my mind that the Mac was the better computer then.

During the Win95/98 days the Mac was still better but MS has narrowed the gap considerably. Plug and Play was starting to work, the OS was much more user friendly.

Now, with Win2000 and XP I think the OS playing field has been pretty much leveled. And when you consider the enormous amount of quality software and hardware available for the PC you have to begin to realize that the balance of power has shifted.

Having more software does not make a platform easier to use, especially when 99% of that software is crap (sorry, its true).

I have yet to have my current Dell system crash. Granted it's only a few months old but I have it doing a lot of things, primary among them is editing video and burning DVD's.

Im happy for you. I really am :)

I have not had extensive experience with OS X, please tell me what it does so much better than Win2000 Pro or XP Pro?

Now, if you are looking for a Mac zealot answer that will not only prove my ignorance or atleast be a blanket statement for all users, go back to sucking on the teat of mommy gates because there is no answer for everyone. I will, however, list my reasons for thinking Mac OS X is better:
Darwin, the core of Mac OS X, is cross platform. Its easier to port clean code than crap code.
Its not Windows: I do not understand Windows, so a system that "thinks different" is a good thing for me.
Its not Microsoft: I have moral objections from purchasing Microsoft products
OpenSSH is included by default
perl is included by default
Free development cds included
Apple's aversion to DRM and similar technologies
A good command line interpreter.
Great command line tools (sed, awk, grep, etc)

These reasons are not in any order.
 

DT4K

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2002
6,944
3
81
Bill: Hey Steve, look at our new OS. We are calling it windows.
Steve: That's not fair, we stole it first.
Bill: And look at this thing we call a mouse.
Steve: That's not fair, we stole it first.
Bill: Hey Steve, how come your computers are so damn expensive.
Steve: Oooh, look at the pretty colors.

By the way, the whole compatibility / stability issue is bs. I've used many macs, and they all crashed or froze just as much as win 98. The recent OS'es are a great step forward on both sides. My friend and I have both been running systems with win XP for almost a year (Mines OC'ed ). And neither one of us has ever had a system hang or crash. Occasionally a game will hang, but the OS handles it beautifully. Ctrl-alt-del, kill the process and you are back in business. Win XP is a far superior OS to the likes of Win 98 / Me. With Win XP, basically everything "just works". Which has always been a selling point of Apple.
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
0
0
Originally posted by: Shanti

By the way, the whole compatibility / stability issue is bs.

By the way, I guess it just depends what you are using yer computer for.


Lethal

 

Bovinicus

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2001
3,145
0
0
Most people who are into content creation (Music, video, etc.) say that Macs are excellent for this purpose. As well, the user-friendy aspect is always a popular one. I like the OS. It's really stable and the system just feels smooth when using it. The aesthetics of the hardware doesn't hurt either.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,165
1,809
126
Originally posted by: ShantiBy the way, the whole compatibility / stability issue is bs. I've used many macs, and they all crashed or froze just as much as win 98. The recent OS'es are a great step forward on both sides. My friend and I have both been running systems with win XP for almost a year (Mines OC'ed ). And neither one of us has ever had a system hang or crash. Occasionally a game will hang, but the OS handles it beautifully. Ctrl-alt-del, kill the process and you are back in business. Win XP is a far superior OS to the likes of Win 98 / Me. With Win XP, basically everything "just works". Which has always been a selling point of Apple.
Yeah, like I said, Win/ME should not even be discussed in this thread. Similarly, OS 8 or 9 (which is probably what you've been running on those Macs over the years) should not even be discussed in this thread. All of those are dead OSes IMO.

The comparison is between Win XP and Mac OS X.2. Both are quite good. However, the stability does depend upon what is being run. I'm actually not hugely concerned with XP stability, as it's only just a desktop machine I use it with. I just like the overall feel of OS X.2 a bit better. But like I said, I use XP as well too.

This is a lesser point, but one thing is I don't like about XP though is the aesthetics. Apple always seems to have an upper hand in that dept. In fact with XP, I now simply turn off all the eye candy and run it in Classic mode. Speed isn't the main issue. I just find XP's colours a bit on the tacky side, and prefer the blandness of the classic Win 2000 look. Aqua on X.2 is gorgeous OTOH, but takes a lot of OpenGL power (ie. Radeon) to make it work effectively.
 

Flatline

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2001
1,248
0
0
Try Gnome2 with an H2O theme or a simulated Aqua theme (I do have to admit, aqua is pretty)

As far as Linux not being ready for the masses, that depends on what you're talking about...most people just check email, do word processing, and surf the 'net. You could use evolution (or kmail or mozilla mail or netscape mail, etc.), OpenOffice (or abiword or one of the hundreds of others), and mozilla/netscape (or Galeon, or Konqueror, etc.) for those things. I could set up a 'nix box in less than an hour for a fraction of the cost (if you buy the software) of a Windows or OSX machine that could do all these things easily and intuitively.

If you haven't tried Gnome2.x or KDE3.x, I heartily suggest that you do. If you're a gamer, you pretty much have to run Windows, but give the other 'nixes a try if you're a Mac user; I promise that, given an opportunity, I would give your beloved OSX a try.

For the most part, people stick with what they're used to; that seems to be the bottom line.
 

Woodchuck2000

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2002
1,632
1
0
This is a lesser point, but one thing is I don't like about XP though is the aesthetics. Apple always seems to have an upper hand in that dept. In fact with XP, I now simply turn off all the eye candy and run it in Classic mode. Speed isn't the main issue. I just find XP's colours a bit on the tacky side, and prefer the blandness of the classic Win 2000 look. Aqua on X.2 is gorgeous OTOH, but takes a lot of OpenGL power (ie. Radeon) to make it work effectively.
Funny you should say that - I've just been playing with an excellent OSX skin for winXP. My computer is looking gorgeous and the brushed aluminium taskbar matches my case.
(;))
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Originally posted by: Woodchuck2000
This is a lesser point, but one thing is I don't like about XP though is the aesthetics. Apple always seems to have an upper hand in that dept. In fact with XP, I now simply turn off all the eye candy and run it in Classic mode. Speed isn't the main issue. I just find XP's colours a bit on the tacky side, and prefer the blandness of the classic Win 2000 look. Aqua on X.2 is gorgeous OTOH, but takes a lot of OpenGL power (ie. Radeon) to make it work effectively.
Funny you should say that - I've just been playing with an excellent OSX skin for winXP. My computer is looking gorgeous and the brushed aluminium taskbar matches my case.
(;))
Care to provide a link? :)
 

Insidious

Diamond Member
Oct 25, 2001
7,649
0
0
what makes people buy Apple computers

The same thing that makes people subscribe to AOL
rolleye.gif


and I have no idea what it is..... just hope it isn't contageous! :p
 

KF

Golden Member
Dec 3, 1999
1,371
0
0
>Well, I would suggest trying it out.
But you have to spend a fortune in order to try an Apple. I can fool with one in a store, but I see nothing to recommend Apples there.

>You may not like OS X and that's fine, but personally I find the OS makes
> more sense, despite the fact I grew up on Windows. Some examples:

>Installing software (if done correctly) is simply dragging the directory
>off the install disc to the hard drive. Indeed, strangely enough, that's how you install Microsoft's Office v.X.

It is peculiar to call this a good thing. In Windows, you put in the CD and the program automatically installs. It's been like that for a long time. True, they usually give you an opportunity to say yes or no. Or they give you a menu ( like Standard Installation, or Choose Options) which can be confusing, but they don't have to. They don't ask you any questions when you install on an Apple? Must be nice! I would like that. I guess the people who write installation programs for Apples are better at being kind to the user.

In the main, I don't conceive of ever doing the other things you mention, so if I had an Apple to try, I wouldn't notice them. What I'm getting from these examples is that Apples have the whole thing worked out completely for lot of things, and don't leave it up to the user to figure out the in-between steps. I think the problem is that Gates, as you would expect from a programmer, has no concept of what simplicity is. And neither do the programmers who write for Windows. But when MS tries to set a pattern to keep it simple, developers don't seem to want to follow it anyway.

I see people saying how nice XP is. For convenience. XP is about as messy, confusing, intricate and illogical as it ever was with W98. ( Well, they added a couple of Wizards.) It's the way the bosses at MS think is best I guess. Behind the scenes XP may be better, but where you interface, it isn't. The revised artistic aspect is OK IMO, but you have always been able to change all those appearance items. MS just included another alternative with XP. Anybody remember "Do It On Your Desktop." And there were things to put Apple style borders and bars around things instead of Window style. The market for this type of thimg is just practically non-existant.

People like Unix style command line shells? There are only about 500 different ones around you can use with Windows.
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Originally posted by: KF
>Well, I would suggest trying it out.
But you have to spend a fortune in order to try an Apple. I can fool with one in a store, but I see nothing to recommend Apples there.

>You may not like OS X and that's fine, but personally I find the OS makes
> more sense, despite the fact I grew up on Windows. Some examples:

>Installing software (if done correctly) is simply dragging the directory
>off the install disc to the hard drive. Indeed, strangely enough, that's how you install Microsoft's Office v.X.

It is peculiar to call this a good thing. In Windows, you put in the CD and the program automatically installs. It's been like that for a long time. True, they usually give you an opportunity to say yes or no. Or they give you a menu ( like Standard Installation, or Choose Options) which can be confusing, but they don't have to. They don't ask you any questions when you install on an Apple? Must be nice! I would like that. I guess the people who write installation programs for Apples are better at being kind to the user.

In the main, I don't conceive of ever doing the other things you mention, so if I had an Apple to try, I wouldn't notice them. What I'm getting from these examples is that Apples have the whole thing worked out completely for lot of things, and don't leave it up to the user to figure out the in-between steps. I think the problem is that Gates, as you would expect from a programmer, has no concept of what simplicity is. And neither do the programmers who write for Windows. But when MS tries to set a pattern to keep it simple, developers don't seem to want to follow it anyway.

I see people saying how nice XP is. For convenience. XP is about as messy, confusing, intricate and illogical as it ever was with W98. ( Well, they added a couple of Wizards.) It's the way the bosses at MS think is best I guess. Behind the scenes XP may be better, but where you interface, it isn't. The revised artistic aspect is OK IMO, but you have always been able to change all those appearance items. MS just included another alternative with XP. Anybody remember "Do It On Your Desktop." And there were things to put Apple style borders and bars around things instead of Window style. The market for this type of thimg is just practically non-existant.

People like Unix style command line shells? There are only about 500 different ones around you can use with Windows.
So you don't like OS X but you don't really care for Windows XP, either. What do you like? I use Windows because I can't stand doing it in VMWare and have some apps that I currently "have" to use, though I spend the rest of my time in Linux; after I get them all set up to my satisfaction, I should be able to stay in Linux all the time because I'll have applications to replace the functionality of those I currently use in Windows.

Now, why would I go through all that trouble to use Linux, you might ask. Well, I prefer a freely upgradable OS that is secure and reliable. Windows may be secure and pretty reliable with enough tweaking, but it each time it gets a major update, you have to shell out $100 or more. Linux and *BSD systems are more secure, because their maintainers put out security patches in a much more timely manner, and they're also very easy to update when new releases come out (usually more frequently than Windows, FYI). In Debian, I just have to "apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade"; N0c can probably fill us in with what he has to do to update OpenBSD. I'm sure it wouldn't be any harder, and in fact it's probably even easier to update than Debian Linux.

Anyway, sorry, this is way OT.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: Flatline
Try Gnome2 with an H2O theme or a simulated Aqua theme (I do have to admit, aqua is pretty)

As far as Linux not being ready for the masses, that depends on what you're talking about...most people just check email, do word processing, and surf the 'net. You could use evolution (or kmail or mozilla mail or netscape mail, etc.), OpenOffice (or abiword or one of the hundreds of others), and mozilla/netscape (or Galeon, or Konqueror, etc.) for those things. I could set up a 'nix box in less than an hour for a fraction of the cost (if you buy the software) of a Windows or OSX machine that could do all these things easily and intuitively.

If you haven't tried Gnome2.x or KDE3.x, I heartily suggest that you do. If you're a gamer, you pretty much have to run Windows, but give the other 'nixes a try if you're a Mac user; I promise that, given an opportunity, I would give your beloved OSX a try.

For the most part, people stick with what they're used to; that seems to be the bottom line.

I started with DOS, moved to DOS with a gui shell (win3.11/Win9x), tried linux and FreeBSD, and finally found salvation in OpenBSD. I now have a Mac with Mac OS X and I love it. Much simpler than Linux ever was (Linux is a PITA for me), and I can do much more desktop type stuff than I could with OpenBSD. Why should I bother trying to get Linux working when I have a server/workstation OS (OpenBSD) and a desktop/workstation OS (Mac OS X) and both have given me many less headaches than Linux?

Now, I will install a newer version of Linux next week, you use Mac OS X and we will compare notes.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: KF
>Well, I would suggest trying it out.
But you have to spend a fortune in order to try an Apple. I can fool with one in a store, but I see nothing to recommend Apples there.

Not at all. I spent $1500 on my iBook and I would have had to have spent much more to get a comparable x86 notebook.

>You may not like OS X and that's fine, but personally I find the OS makes
> more sense, despite the fact I grew up on Windows. Some examples:

>Installing software (if done correctly) is simply dragging the directory
>off the install disc to the hard drive. Indeed, strangely enough, that's how you install Microsoft's Office v.X.

It is peculiar to call this a good thing. In Windows, you put in the CD and the program automatically installs. It's been like that for a long time. True, they usually give you an opportunity to say yes or no. Or they give you a menu ( like Standard Installation, or Choose Options) which can be confusing, but they don't have to. They don't ask you any questions when you install on an Apple? Must be nice! I would like that. I guess the people who write installation programs for Apples are better at being kind to the user.

Some programs are that simple, other ask questions for customization.

In the main, I don't conceive of ever doing the other things you mention, so if I had an Apple to try, I wouldn't notice them. What I'm getting from these examples is that Apples have the whole thing worked out completely for lot of things, and don't leave it up to the user to figure out the in-between steps. I think the problem is that Gates, as you would expect from a programmer, has no concept of what simplicity is. And neither do the programmers who write for Windows. But when MS tries to set a pattern to keep it simple, developers don't seem to want to follow it anyway.

I see people saying how nice XP is. For convenience. XP is about as messy, confusing, intricate and illogical as it ever was with W98. ( Well, they added a couple of Wizards.) It's the way the bosses at MS think is best I guess. Behind the scenes XP may be better, but where you interface, it isn't. The revised artistic aspect is OK IMO, but you have always been able to change all those appearance items. MS just included another alternative with XP. Anybody remember "Do It On Your Desktop." And there were things to put Apple style borders and bars around things instead of Window style. The market for this type of thimg is just practically non-existant.

People like Unix style command line shells? There are only about 500 different ones around you can use with Windows.

Name one that is installed in the base install. The only half decent one I found was cygwin, and that needed a bunch of other stuff to be installed too. Which means, more time spent installing stuff and not enough time working.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: jliechty
Originally posted by: KF
>Well, I would suggest trying it out.
But you have to spend a fortune in order to try an Apple. I can fool with one in a store, but I see nothing to recommend Apples there.

>You may not like OS X and that's fine, but personally I find the OS makes
> more sense, despite the fact I grew up on Windows. Some examples:

>Installing software (if done correctly) is simply dragging the directory
>off the install disc to the hard drive. Indeed, strangely enough, that's how you install Microsoft's Office v.X.

It is peculiar to call this a good thing. In Windows, you put in the CD and the program automatically installs. It's been like that for a long time. True, they usually give you an opportunity to say yes or no. Or they give you a menu ( like Standard Installation, or Choose Options) which can be confusing, but they don't have to. They don't ask you any questions when you install on an Apple? Must be nice! I would like that. I guess the people who write installation programs for Apples are better at being kind to the user.

In the main, I don't conceive of ever doing the other things you mention, so if I had an Apple to try, I wouldn't notice them. What I'm getting from these examples is that Apples have the whole thing worked out completely for lot of things, and don't leave it up to the user to figure out the in-between steps. I think the problem is that Gates, as you would expect from a programmer, has no concept of what simplicity is. And neither do the programmers who write for Windows. But when MS tries to set a pattern to keep it simple, developers don't seem to want to follow it anyway.

I see people saying how nice XP is. For convenience. XP is about as messy, confusing, intricate and illogical as it ever was with W98. ( Well, they added a couple of Wizards.) It's the way the bosses at MS think is best I guess. Behind the scenes XP may be better, but where you interface, it isn't. The revised artistic aspect is OK IMO, but you have always been able to change all those appearance items. MS just included another alternative with XP. Anybody remember "Do It On Your Desktop." And there were things to put Apple style borders and bars around things instead of Window style. The market for this type of thimg is just practically non-existant.

People like Unix style command line shells? There are only about 500 different ones around you can use with Windows.
So you don't like OS X but you don't really care for Windows XP, either. What do you like? I use Windows because I can't stand doing it in VMWare and have some apps that I currently "have" to use, though I spend the rest of my time in Linux; after I get them all set up to my satisfaction, I should be able to stay in Linux all the time because I'll have applications to replace the functionality of those I currently use in Windows.

Now, why would I go through all that trouble to use Linux, you might ask. Well, I prefer a freely upgradable OS that is secure and reliable. Windows may be secure and pretty reliable with enough tweaking, but it each time it gets a major update, you have to shell out $100 or more. Linux and *BSD systems are more secure, because their maintainers put out security patches in a much more timely manner, and they're also very easy to update when new releases come out (usually more frequently than Windows, FYI). In Debian, I just have to "apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade"; N0c can probably fill us in with what he has to do to update OpenBSD. I'm sure it wouldn't be any harder, and in fact it's probably even easier to update than Debian Linux.

Anyway, sorry, this is way OT.

Applying some patches right now actually. Its more involved than Debian though.
 

EdipisReks

Platinum Member
Sep 30, 2000
2,722
0
0
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey:and this is really up to the user because I know I dont need a poorly designed 3.06ghz processor

that is about the dumbest thing i've read today. how is the Pentium IV poorly designed?
 

PliotronX

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
8,883
107
106
To go with their new Jettas! :p

Hey N0c, I'm curious if the motherboards of modern Macs are upgradeable, seemed like an opportune time to ask, I don't mean to join the debate though :)
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,165
1,809
126
>Installing software (if done correctly) is simply dragging the directory
>off the install disc to the hard drive. Indeed, strangely enough, that's how you install Microsoft's Office v.X.

It is peculiar to call this a good thing. In Windows, you put in the CD and the program automatically installs. It's been like that for a long time. True, they usually give you an opportunity to say yes or no. Or they give you a menu ( like Standard Installation, or Choose Options) which can be confusing, but they don't have to. They don't ask you any questions when you install on an Apple? Must be nice! I would like that. I guess the people who write installation programs for Apples are better at being kind to the user.
Actually, my point was that Apple "encourages" the software developers to create programs that live in one directory.

ie. All of Office applications are housed in one main directory. Everything you need is there and you don't even need an installer. Just copy the directory over and you're done. No requirement for a registry either. (However, if you want to customize the install (say if you're short on disk space) you'll have to run their installer which is like the Windows version.) Despite this simplistic method of installation, the OS still "knows" to associate .xls files with Excel for example.

Now this doesn't mean all programs are like this. I think Norton SystemWorks or whatever it's called, spreads itself all over the farking hard drive. I've always hated these types of installs, but they seem more common on the Wintel platform. Deleting registry entries in Windows from dead apps has got to be the worst.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: EdipisReks
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey:and this is really up to the user because I know I dont need a poorly designed 3.06ghz processor

that is about the dumbest thing i've read today. how is the Pentium IV poorly designed?

Have you read the news on it? The original design was pretty nice and then they started to yank stuff to get it out the door to compete with the Athlon. I would consider purchasing a P4 if I was in the market for an x86 machine.
 

bjc112

Lifer
Dec 23, 2000
11,460
0
76
Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
rolleye.gif

This must be thread #76437823843632847 on this subject.

I am sure people have their reasons to buy them. OSX rocks btw.

Yep. OSX is probably one of the main reasons... It really does make XP look bad....

Or get a really good OS in linux...
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: Insidious
what makes people buy Apple computers

The same thing that makes people subscribe to AOL
rolleye.gif


and I have no idea what it is..... just hope it isn't contageous! :p

Five or six years ago, I used AOL for a two or three months. It is to easy for a novice. But it was slow, expensive, and compared to the real internet limited in what it offered.

Hmmmm that does sound like a Mac....