Why can't we have a flat tax on ALL income after a base amount?

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dirtboy

Originally posted by: miguel
OMG, I cannot believe the stuff I'm reading here. Trickle down economics means instead of paying the government, you spend your money in the economy, thus increasing production and providing more jobs. Actually, this is kinda hilarious reading your inane posts. Please continue!

Yea, Dave is pretty amusing. If it wasn't for him I might not bother stopping in at this forum.

I think the problem Dave has with trickle-down is that it doesn't trickle fast enough. It is much, much faster to raise taxes and hand that money over to the poor. While that works great in the short run, it doesn't create a sustainable economy, because the basis is to take from the working and give to the non-working.

How quickly Dave forgets, because he doesn't believe in looking back at history (which he has said), is that America once had zero taxes and existed purely on a trickle down economy. Notably, it was one of the most successful times this nation has ever seen.

Dave would be the first to complain that there is lack of high paying construction jobs if the rich did not build huge houses.

Have you been out of your house away from the Computer? Have you been to a Construction site lately? If you had you would not make such idiotic remark, show me one person that speaks English or pays taxes building these houses.

There is these run down Vans and pick-ups with ladders hanging off all over them driving on practically flats loaded down to the because it is overloaded with the illegal workers. They throw beer cans and trash everywhere.

That's your high paying Construction jobs in America now.

I don't see that problem around here. We have tons of housing going up and not just your little 2-3 bedroom places. I'm talking some pretty high value homes for this area. I also know quite a few of the builders and subs. I think you are just seeing what you want to see Dave. Try looking at things in a positive light for once - it'd most definately help your DEPRESSION.

CkG

Come on down and see with your own eyes. And you're welcome to stay here

I'm only 5 miles from these Megadivisions being built as they call them. Each is over 4,000 houses.

REUNION - A New American Village

The Estates at Château Élan
Info needs updating, it says 2,000 houses but that has been doubled to 4,000.

That's just two of the massive projects underway.

In addition to the 20,000 houses being built is projects like this below all on a 2 lane Country road. The meeting Boadr below said the DOT is planning on widening the orad to 4 lanes. I spoke with the head of the DOT and he told me point blank they will not widen the road for at least 10 years. I said to him he is purposely planning on gridlock to come back to the Taxpayers pockets. He turned beat red at the meeting. They already put 2 of the planned 6 traffic lights in thos stretch. It will take at least 45 minutes to travel the 5 mile stretch to get to I-85.

Braselton shopping center gets OK

Great for progress and all but like I said come here and you will be hard pressed to find one English speaking worker on the Construction sites.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dirtboy

Originally posted by: miguel
OMG, I cannot believe the stuff I'm reading here. Trickle down economics means instead of paying the government, you spend your money in the economy, thus increasing production and providing more jobs. Actually, this is kinda hilarious reading your inane posts. Please continue!

Yea, Dave is pretty amusing. If it wasn't for him I might not bother stopping in at this forum.

I think the problem Dave has with trickle-down is that it doesn't trickle fast enough. It is much, much faster to raise taxes and hand that money over to the poor. While that works great in the short run, it doesn't create a sustainable economy, because the basis is to take from the working and give to the non-working.

How quickly Dave forgets, because he doesn't believe in looking back at history (which he has said), is that America once had zero taxes and existed purely on a trickle down economy. Notably, it was one of the most successful times this nation has ever seen.

Dave would be the first to complain that there is lack of high paying construction jobs if the rich did not build huge houses.

Have you been out of your house away from the Computer? Have you been to a Construction site lately? If you had you would not make such idiotic remark, show me one person that speaks English or pays taxes building these houses.

There is these run down Vans and pick-ups with ladders hanging off all over them driving on practically flats loaded down to the because it is overloaded with the illegal workers. They throw beer cans and trash everywhere.

That's your high paying Construction jobs in America now.

I don't see that problem around here. We have tons of housing going up and not just your little 2-3 bedroom places. I'm talking some pretty high value homes for this area. I also know quite a few of the builders and subs. I think you are just seeing what you want to see Dave. Try looking at things in a positive light for once - it'd most definately help your DEPRESSION.

CkG

Come on down and see with your own eyes. And you're welcome to stay here

I'm only 5 miles from these Megadivisions being built as they call them. Each is over 4,000 houses.

REUNION - A New American Village

The Estates at Château Élan
Info needs updating, it says 2,000 houses but that has been doubled to 4,000.

That's just two of the massive projects underway.

In addition to the 20,000 houses being built is projects like this below all on a 2 lane Country road. The meeting Boadr below said the DOT is planning on widening the orad to 4 lanes. I spoke with the head of the DOT and he told me point blank they will not widen the road for at least 10 years. I said to him he is purposely planning on gridlock to come back to the Taxpayers pockets. He turned beat red at the meeting. They already put 2 of the planned 6 traffic lights in thos stretch. It will take at least 45 minutes to travel the 5 mile stretch to get to I-85.

Braselton shopping center gets OK

Great for progress and all but like I said come here and you will be hard pressed to find one English speaking worker on the Construction sites.

Sounds like that will generate alot of good paying jobs.

 

[DeeKnow]

why can't we have flat taxes? simple ... cause the rich make the laws. everywhere. not just in the US. if we had flat taxation, the rich wouldn't be rich for very long...

 

[djNickb]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dirtboy

Originally posted by: miguel
OMG, I cannot believe the stuff I'm reading here. Trickle down economics means instead of paying the government, you spend your money in the economy, thus increasing production and providing more jobs. Actually, this is kinda hilarious reading your inane posts. Please continue!

Yea, Dave is pretty amusing. If it wasn't for him I might not bother stopping in at this forum.

I think the problem Dave has with trickle-down is that it doesn't trickle fast enough. It is much, much faster to raise taxes and hand that money over to the poor. While that works great in the short run, it doesn't create a sustainable economy, because the basis is to take from the working and give to the non-working.

How quickly Dave forgets, because he doesn't believe in looking back at history (which he has said), is that America once had zero taxes and existed purely on a trickle down economy. Notably, it was one of the most successful times this nation has ever seen.

Dave would be the first to complain that there is lack of high paying construction jobs if the rich did not build huge houses.

Have you been out of your house away from the Computer? Have you been to a Construction site lately? If you had you would not make such idiotic remark, show me one person that speaks English or pays taxes building these houses.

There is these run down Vans and pick-ups with ladders hanging off all over them driving on practically flats loaded down to the because it is overloaded with the illegal workers. They throw beer cans and trash everywhere.

That's your high paying Construction jobs in America now.

I don't see that problem around here. We have tons of housing going up and not just your little 2-3 bedroom places. I'm talking some pretty high value homes for this area. I also know quite a few of the builders and subs. I think you are just seeing what you want to see Dave. Try looking at things in a positive light for once - it'd most definately help your DEPRESSION.

CkG

Come on down and see with your own eyes. And you're welcome to stay here

I'm only 5 miles from these Megadivisions being built as they call them. Each is over 4,000 houses.

REUNION - A New American Village

The Estates at Château Élan
Info needs updating, it says 2,000 houses but that has been doubled to 4,000.

That's just two of the massive projects underway.

In addition to the 20,000 houses being built is projects like this below all on a 2 lane Country road. The meeting Boadr below said the DOT is planning on widening the orad to 4 lanes. I spoke with the head of the DOT and he told me point blank they will not widen the road for at least 10 years. I said to him he is purposely planning on gridlock to come back to the Taxpayers pockets. He turned beat red at the meeting. They already put 2 of the planned 6 traffic lights in thos stretch. It will take at least 45 minutes to travel the 5 mile stretch to get to I-85.

Braselton shopping center gets OK

Great for progress and all but like I said come here and you will be hard pressed to find one English speaking worker on the Construction sites.

Sounds like that will generate alot of good paying jobs.

There's probably some great real estate to invest in within those developing projects but I think Dave would rather work for money so he can complain instead.

 

[Ferocious]

Flat tax would be nothing more than a tax cut for the rich and potentially a tax increase for the lower middle class depending on what the numbers are.

The flat tax rate would almost certainly be lower than the upper bracket is now (hence a tax cut for big earners) and would have to be higher for the rest of people....if you want to maintain the same level of tax revenues.

basic math 101.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Char is right about VAT.

http://www.bcentral.co.uk/finance/tax/vatfaq/What_is_vat.asp

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Flat tax would be nothing more than a tax cut for the rich and potentially a tax increase for the lower middle class depending on what the numbers are.

The flat tax rate would almost certainly be lower than the upper bracket is now (hence a tax cut for big earners) and would have to be higher for the rest of people....if you want to maintain the same level of tax revenues.

basic math 101.

"rich" don't have income so they would pay more under a flat tax assuming all revenue generated is taxed flat.

Here's how it works now.
Guy builds a shopping center for 4M.
10 years later sells it for 10M.
Subtotal gain=6M
Minus all "investment" and "management" expenses. Which could easily add up to 2M if he likes driving a S600, private plane etc.
Minus all building costs and maintainence expenses during interm. say 1M.
Capital gain is around 3M which is taxed at 15% = 450K tax paid unless he does a 1031 which would be no taxation.

Here's how a flat tax would work.
Guy builds a shopping center for 4M.
10 years later sells it for 10M.
Gain=6M no deductions taxed at 20%= 1.2M tax paid

Or even better I've head proposed zero deduction even in investment.
10 years later sells it for 10M.
Gain=10M no deductions taxed at 20%= 2.0M tax paid


It all depends on what people mean by *flat* and what people mean by *income*. But almost anyway you define it and every plan I've seen the "rich" would pay more not less if we had flat taxation. And best of all middle class would pay less and stop being hit with AMT which is happening more and more since the rate has never changed for inflation since the early 80s.

 

[rahvin]

Under any scenario you can come up with the flat tax % required to maintain the same level of government funding will result in an INCREASE in the taxes I and most americans pay.

The only flat tax I would support is a graduated (or progressive) flat tax with brackets. This would result in an overall increase in taxes on those with homes and families and a decrease on single renters. In reality this wouldn't be a flat tax but would just be the elimination of all deductions.

I'm a firm believer that those with higher incomes benefit more from our society and are obligated to pay a higher percentage for income above certain levels to maintain this society.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: rahvin

I'm a firm believer that those with higher incomes benefit more from our society and are obligated to pay a higher percentage for income above certain levels to maintain this society.

Yes, I know, society just stopped them one day on the street and dropped a truckload of money at their feet.

Those with higher incomes benefit from their hard work, risk-taking, ambition, and sacrifice or the hard work, risk-taking, ambition, and sacrifice of their parents. You see, it's a trade off...take your time and smell the roses and goof off on one hand or have lots of money on the other. Both have their upsides and downsides. The downside to goofing off and indulging yourself and not ever taking chances is that you have less money and the downside to having lots of money is that you have to spend a lot of time and energy and make lots of sacrifices and risk a lot. ANYBODY who wants to be filthy rich in America can do so...all it takes is some hard work and daring and sacrifice. But it's not like society GAVE them anything.

I'm a firm believer that those who think the rich should be taxed more heavily than the non-rich are jealous and spiteful and selfish.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: rahvin

I'm a firm believer that those with higher incomes benefit more from our society and are obligated to pay a higher percentage for income above certain levels to maintain this society.

Yes, I know, society just stopped them one day on the street and dropped a truckload of money at their feet.

Those with higher incomes benefit from their hard work, risk-taking, ambition, and sacrifice or the hard work, risk-taking, ambition, and sacrifice of their parents. You see, it's a trade off...take your time and smell the roses and goof off on one hand or have lots of money on the other. Both have their upsides and downsides. The downside to goofing off and indulging yourself and not ever taking chances is that you have less money and the downside to having lots of money is that you have to spend a lot of time and energy and make lots of sacrifices and risk a lot. ANYBODY who wants to be filthy rich in America can do so...all it takes is some hard work and daring and sacrifice. But it's not like society GAVE them anything.

I'm a firm believer that those who think the rich should be taxed more heavily than the non-rich are jealous and spiteful and selfish.

And I'm also a firm believer that you put your foot in your mouth and focus on non-topics to belittle those with different ideas than your own. I never said that those with financial assests are not hard workers or do not deserve their money, what I said is that our society has created rules and a system that allows that hard work and sacrifice to generate wealth. As a result of relying on a system that does that those that benefit from that system are obligated to help support the continuation of that system because they benefit the most from it.

What people like yourself suggest is that the only system available is one that rewards hard work and that is NOT true. We could easily choose a political and economic system that punishes hard work or fails to reward it. Our choice to focus on a system that rewards hard work and expansion of the economy but it comes at a cost and that cost to me is that those that benefit most from the system are obligated to pay more to support that system. The taxes we pay go to support and keep alive the system we as a people have choosen.

Now if you want to continue to make unfounded accustations about my economic standing or baseless statements that because I support a graduated system that taxes those that have more I must be poor and envious of the "rich" go right ahead, but it just shows what an idiot you are.

 

[miguel]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: rahvin

I'm a firm believer that those with higher incomes benefit more from our society and are obligated to pay a higher percentage for income above certain levels to maintain this society.

Yes, I know, society just stopped them one day on the street and dropped a truckload of money at their feet.

Those with higher incomes benefit from their hard work, risk-taking, ambition, and sacrifice or the hard work, risk-taking, ambition, and sacrifice of their parents. You see, it's a trade off...take your time and smell the roses and goof off on one hand or have lots of money on the other. Both have their upsides and downsides. The downside to goofing off and indulging yourself and not ever taking chances is that you have less money and the downside to having lots of money is that you have to spend a lot of time and energy and make lots of sacrifices and risk a lot. ANYBODY who wants to be filthy rich in America can do so...all it takes is some hard work and daring and sacrifice. But it's not like society GAVE them anything.

I'm a firm believer that those who think the rich should be taxed more heavily than the non-rich are jealous and spiteful and selfish.

What people like yourself suggest is that the only system available is one that rewards hard work and that is NOT true.

It's called Capitalism, comrade.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: rahvin

I'm a firm believer that those with higher incomes benefit more from our society and are obligated to pay a higher percentage for income above certain levels to maintain this society.

Yes, I know, society just stopped them one day on the street and dropped a truckload of money at their feet.

Those with higher incomes benefit from their hard work, risk-taking, ambition, and sacrifice or the hard work, risk-taking, ambition, and sacrifice of their parents. You see, it's a trade off...take your time and smell the roses and goof off on one hand or have lots of money on the other. Both have their upsides and downsides. The downside to goofing off and indulging yourself and not ever taking chances is that you have less money and the downside to having lots of money is that you have to spend a lot of time and energy and make lots of sacrifices and risk a lot. ANYBODY who wants to be filthy rich in America can do so...all it takes is some hard work and daring and sacrifice. But it's not like society GAVE them anything.

I'm a firm believer that those who think the rich should be taxed more heavily than the non-rich are jealous and spiteful and selfish.

And I'm a firm believer you're a wannabe rich and sit around all day and blame "those damn taxes" "those damn liberals" or "those damn minorites" for it not being so.

We live in a democracy, for now, and most rational people understand, we don't tax people, we tax dollars instead, and vote accordingly on this progessionary tax schema. And they understand the more you make the more you benefit and the more you can "afford to pay". You paid the same taxes as Bill Gates did on you'alls first 15K of income. How is that not fair?

As far as your working hard thesis..sure that might put you in the middle or upper middleclass..but for every multimillionaire businessman you show me selfmade I'll show you 10 which got a huge head start or are simply trust fund babies or hiers to large fortunes.

BTW- I think it's funny to see you bash ravin as a liberal...he's right of Bush on most issues.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Zebo

BTW- I think it's funny to see you bash ravin as a liberal...he's right of Bush on most issues.

Right of Bush? I'm a Centrist (who hasn't voted for a Democrat or Republican in the past 2 presidental elections) and the Democans and Republicrats don't know what the hell that is. I'm critizied as to right or to left because my views fall in the middle and when 90% of the people that post to this forum are extremists that means if your view is anywhere but with them you are demonized as the other extreme.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: rahvin
Under any scenario you can come up with the flat tax % required to maintain the same level of government funding will result in an INCREASE in the taxes I and most americans pay.

I don't have numbers to back this up, and I'd appreciate it if someone could post the numbers (total taxable capital gains & dividends for any given year) but I have a strong suspicion that if ALL income was taxed as in my initial scenerio that the increased tax revenues from capital gains & dividends would go a long way in making up for the tax revenue otherwise lost from the flat tax rate. Plus, you seem to be overlooking the fact that you don't have to necessarily increase taxes to increase tax revenue. Also, I'm not sure with all the bloat our government perpetuates that keeping the current level of funding is a good thing, assuming it can act fiscally responsible unlike under Shrub.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: rahvin

I'm a firm believer that those with higher incomes benefit more from our society and are obligated to pay a higher percentage for income above certain levels to maintain this society.

Yes, I know, society just stopped them one day on the street and dropped a truckload of money at their feet.

Those with higher incomes benefit from their hard work, risk-taking, ambition, and sacrifice or the hard work, risk-taking, ambition, and sacrifice of their parents. You see, it's a trade off...take your time and smell the roses and goof off on one hand or have lots of money on the other. Both have their upsides and downsides. The downside to goofing off and indulging yourself and not ever taking chances is that you have less money and the downside to having lots of money is that you have to spend a lot of time and energy and make lots of sacrifices and risk a lot. ANYBODY who wants to be filthy rich in America can do so...all it takes is some hard work and daring and sacrifice. But it's not like society GAVE them anything.

I'm a firm believer that those who think the rich should be taxed more heavily than the non-rich are jealous and spiteful and selfish.

And I'm a firm believer you're a wannabe rich and sit around all day and blame "those damn taxes" "those damn liberals" or "those damn minorites" for it not being so.

I make enough to afford a house and to allow my wife to stay home with our daughter. But I also take time to enjoy the fruits of my labor. I've chosen to be balanced and have some of each.

We live in a democracy, for now, and most rational people understand, we don't tax people, we tax dollars instead,

LOL. If we taxed dollars, then we'd have a flat tax that taxed every dollar the same, but we don't, do we? No, we tax people based on their income.

As far as your working hard thesis..sure that might put you in the middle or upper middleclass..but for every multimillionaire businessman you show me selfmade I'll show you 10 which got a huge head start or are simply trust fund babies or hiers to large fortunes.

1) MC Hammer blew 20 million dollars in 3 years and so would a trust fund baby if they weren't smart so the only ones with money are the ones who've done the effort to see that they handle it wisely. 2) Giving your children a head start is one of the motivations for making money and having that reason. 3) I think it's probably 50 to 1 the other way depending on your definition of rich.

 

[Jhhnn]

Flat tax? Do you mean the elimination of all other taxes except for income taxes? Sales, excise, fuel and all of the other hidden taxes/fees born largely by the middle class on down?

And would it include all forms of income, including estates, trusts, capital gains and dividends? Gifts of cash or negotiable property?

Sounds great, but it'll never happen- those at the top would end up paying more than they do now....

 

[gordy]

easy solution:
Step 1
10% tax on everyone
make 30K a year 3K in taxes
make 100K a year 10K in taxes


Step 2
itemized tax sheet checklist
where do you want your taxes to go:
_education
_defense
_social programs
_another item
_and on

that way everyone gets taxed evenly, that way we choose were our tax dollars go...
that would gut bureaucracy in one fell swoop