Why can't we have a flat tax on ALL income after a base amount?

Oct 16, 1999
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Say a flat 35% after the first $50K for couple and $25K for singles? A couple at the $56,800 mark would pay $2,380 in taxes versus the $8520 they are paying now. Even someone at the top bracket would get a cut of about $17500.

Here's a chart of the current income tax rates after G.W.'s cuts (pulled this off the first site I found, I'm assuming it's correct):

Joint return Single taxpayer Rate
0?-----------14,000 0?-----------7,000 10.0%
14,000?----56,800 7,000?----28,400 15.0%
56,800?--114,650 28,400?--68,800 25.0%
114,650?174,700 68,800?143,500 28.0%
174,700?311,950 143,500?311,950 33.0%
311,950 and up 311,950 and up 35.0%

Now, before G.W.'s tax cuts, Capital gains were taxed at 20%, and Dividends were taxed as normal income. Thanks to G.W. both are now taxed at a flat 15%. I have a to believe a huge chunk of Bush's fat-cat friends are making out like bandits being taxed at the same level as someone who is lower-middle class, assuming a major chunk of these fat-cats' income is from capital gains and dividends, which is not an unreasonable assumption to make.

Now this isn't meant to be a veiled attack on Bush, I'm trying to make that as flagrant as possible, based on the actual fact of the matter. But that's not the primary point of this post. The point is, why is it that our government won't go to a simpler, fairer system like this? Is it because of all the fat-cats making bank on their capital gains and dividends, or is it something else?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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I'd go for a flat tax based on what $ cut off you suggest with the following proviso.
First you determine the budget for the next year.. not fiscal year. Then you provide for increase in debt related to capital type expenses and not current budget delta. In the budget you'd include the debt service on the existing and increased debt as well as the cash needed to pay down on some rational basis the debt until it becomes based on only the fixed asset type funded costs. (this too needs being paid down but only based on the new issue related to it).
If the rate needed based on logical expectations is 25% tax rate fine and if it is 40% fine too but, this would tend to stiffle the economy so you'd have to provide for this condition or cut expenses... somewhere.. right? Sorta a balanced budget based on accepted 'business' accounting.. not bankrupt government accounting.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
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It would be nice if the tax code was thrown out the window. Forget all of the social engineering (and corporate profiteering). Just exempt the first 20K (with annual adjustment for inflation) and then flat tax ALL income. Granted, I think the estate tax should be very high. Not to mention a federal VAT.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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BBD: Why should estate tax be high? I think that's one of the worst "taxation without representation" that we have...

Concur with the rest...
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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Originally posted by: alchemize
BBD: Why should estate tax be high? I think that's one of the worst "taxation without representation" that we have...

Concur with the rest...

A vat is a bad idea. It hides the cost of goverment.

A national retail sales tax i could live with.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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BBD: Why should estate tax be high? I think that's one of the worst "taxation without representation" that we have...
Maybe I'm not against ALL social engineering. :D

A vat is a bad idea. It hides the cost of goverment. A national retail sales tax i could live with.
Maybe that's my ignorance talking . . . I thought a VAT was essentially a national retail sales tax.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Also because the rich would have to pay tax then. Now they get away with dishing out so little it's next to nothing compared percentage wise to middle class pay out.

Eh?

THe top 10% pay about 70% of the income taxes.

top 50% pay 96% of all income taxes.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: alchemize
BBD: Why should estate tax be high? I think that's one of the worst "taxation without representation" that we have...

Concur with the rest...

A vat is a bad idea. It hides the cost of goverment.

A national retail sales tax i could live with.

At the end of the day they both are very similar. The only real difference is the price includes VAT, generally and the Sales tax is additive. There are exemptions to tax for both.

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
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Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Also because the rich would have to pay tax then. Now they get away with dishing out so little it's next to nothing compared percentage wise to middle class pay out.

Eh?

THe top 10% pay about 70% of the income taxes.

top 50% pay 96% of all income taxes.
That's a pretty typical response that pops out when Dave says something. Eh?

I guess DM draws the middle class line at 50-95% income range?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: alchemize
BBD: Why should estate tax be high? I think that's one of the worst "taxation without representation" that we have...

Concur with the rest...

A vat is a bad idea. It hides the cost of goverment.

A national retail sales tax i could live with.

At the end of the day they both are very similar. The only real difference is the price includes VAT, generally and the Sales tax is additive. There are exemptions to tax for both.


a vat and retails sales tax are different.
With a retail sales tax, only the final product is taxed. With vat, the product is taxed everytime product changes hands in product and then at the retail level. This hides the cost of goverment.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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The VAT is calculated thusly:
For each level VAT is included but it is not additive as such.. If VAT is 15% and you buy a widget for 100$ then you simple divide the 100$ by 115 and derive the product cost and the VAT element. In this case VAT would be about 13$.

It is PDF so go to page 17 and see an example
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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Originally posted by: LunarRay
The VAT is calculated thusly:
For each level VAT is included but it is not additive as such.. If VAT is 15% and you buy a widget for 100$ then you simple divide the 100$ by 115 and derive the product cost and the VAT element. In this case VAT would be about 13$.

It is PDF so go to page 17 and see an example

As I said, the vat is added into the cost of the product at every step and eventually passed onto the consumer, thus hiding the cost of the tax.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Also because the rich would have to pay tax then. Now they get away with dishing out so little it's next to nothing compared percentage wise to middle class pay out.

Eh?

THe top 10% pay about 70% of the income taxes.

top 50% pay 96% of all income taxes.

What I believe he is talking about is the overall "income to overall taxation" ratio. We had a thread a while back where people tried to use this argument but couldn't/wouldn't provide much data to back it up.

I'd be just fine with a "flat" type tax with a base.

CkG
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
But is isn't.
You know the vat rate... so to 100% add the vat rate.. like in the example.. 21% = 121% take the price and divide by the 121% and you know both parts.. just like in Sales Tax..
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Also because the rich would have to pay tax then. Now they get away with dishing out so little it's next to nothing compared percentage wise to middle class pay out.

Eh?

THe top 10% pay about 70% of the income taxes.

top 50% pay 96% of all income taxes.

You believe that, I've got a Bridge For Sale for you too.


 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Also because the rich would have to pay tax then. Now they get away with dishing out so little it's next to nothing compared percentage wise to middle class pay out.

Eh?

THe top 10% pay about 70% of the income taxes.

top 50% pay 96% of all income taxes.

What I believe he is talking about is the overall "income to overall taxation" ratio. We had a thread a while back where people tried to use this argument but couldn't/wouldn't provide much data to back it up.

I'd be just fine with a "flat" type tax with a base.

CkG


Exactly, TY
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
The VAT paid on the previous step is 'Clawed' back.. not paid but deducted from the amount collected.. I think this is the common misunderstanding./.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: LunarRay
The VAT paid on the previous step is 'Clawed' back.. not paid but deducted from the amount collected.. I think this is the common misunderstanding./.

BUsiness pass on the cost of taxes to the consumer.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: LunarRay
The VAT paid on the previous step is 'Clawed' back.. not paid but deducted from the amount collected.. I think this is the common misunderstanding./.

BUsiness pass on the cost of taxes to the consumer.

A distinction without a difference, I think. In fact, in part, the revenuer gets use of the money sooner in VAT.. The tax is paid at the end of the day by the consumer in both cases.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Also because the rich would have to pay tax then. Now they get away with dishing out so little it's next to nothing compared percentage wise to middle class pay out.

Eh?

THe top 10% pay about 70% of the income taxes.

top 50% pay 96% of all income taxes.


You believe that, I've got a Bridge For Sale for you too.


top 1% pays 37%
top 5% pays 56%
top 10% pays 66%
top 25% pays 84%
top 50% pays 96%



linkage
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: LunarRay
The VAT paid on the previous step is 'Clawed' back.. not paid but deducted from the amount collected.. I think this is the common misunderstanding./.

BUsiness pass on the cost of taxes to the consumer.

A distinction without a difference, I think. In fact, in part, the revenuer gets use of the money sooner in VAT.. The tax is paid at the end of the day by the consumer in both cases.

one is hidden from the consumer and one is not.

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Charrison,
one is hidden from the consumer and one is not.

Well.. not if you know the vat rate.. if it is 21% it is 21%. The actual dollar amount takes some math.. but, failing that you'd be correct.

Also a Disclaimer.. I understand and have worked with the VAT in the UK and Irl.. and Bel and France but, the other nations with VAT may be different..