Why Biden is pulling the US -- and NATO -- out of Afghanistan

[BonzaiDuck]

Let see if we finally leave. I'm sure the Republicans are prepping all of their BS talking points and every dumbass is going to pull the "Politicians kept us from WINNING!!! Derpa vietnam derpa derpa"

I only need to respond to the initial post. You are right on -- spot on. Biden is talking about Sunk Cost. If you have a business, losing money year after year, and throwing more and more money into the enterprise to recoup the previous loss, the only sound business decision is to cut bait, salvage what you can in dollar asset-values, and do something else.

When there are lives lost, your average citizen insists on making those losses meaningful by doing just the opposite. That's what happened in Vietnam, a decade after SEATO withdrew from the conflict. Eisenhower had not wanted a land war in Asia and chose only to put in advisors. Johnson had come under the influence of hawks on the JCS, reversing Kennedy's plan to "vietnamize" the war and get out. Look at the other major powers. Are they occupying little countries half a world away? The Soviets had tried their own Vietnam experiment in Afghanistan with a little more success, leaving a government in place after they withdrew, but that didn't last long with the Taliban insurgency.

Vietnam resulted in nothing but a loss in excess of 2 million lives in addition to the treasure expended on it. We had relocated 1.7 million Vietnamese to serve as an electorate for Diem, and we had designed the ballots in his election for appeal to Vietnamese superstition -- guaranteeing his election.

It is not a "political" argument to observe that the GOP precipitated -- first -- the nation-building expense of $2 Trillion in Afghanistan, and -- second -- the insistence to overthrow Saddam with an accumulated price-tag of $3 Trillion under the same nation-building fantasy. Worse, the Iraq War led to the metastasizing birth and growth of ISIS.

Your average GOP voter wants to totally eliminate a steady-state of global tension, which is folly. We lived for many decades under the possibility of a nuclear war, which we (so far) prevented. We have to accept the idea that money spent elsewhere can be spent at home instead. I still have a theory that some elements of the GOP just wanted to fritter it away on warfare, and deprive us of an ability to use the tax revenues in domestic programs and spending.

Veterans of these failed war adventures have nothing -- nothing to be ashamed of. They deserve the highest honors. Preserving the nation-state of the USA is the first priority. We chose to call our war-making establishment the "Department of Defense" as opposed to the "War Department". And barring a national security threat to the USA, this is not some NFL game or global World Series or a race on the SPEED channel. Such was the mistake of the last administration, with their "we win -- you lose" response to the popular majority who otherwise won the election for Clinton. Four years of hurting people! Four years of doing nothing constructive to prepare for a withdrawal, to say "Exit strategy? I don't need an exit strategy!" A blocked transition to the next administration, which might have allowed for better preparation.

But -- oh, no! This is "all on Biden's watch". Now let me tell you about the Bay of Pigs. Kennedy chose to take the heat. The entire plan was flawed, and developed by CIA under Eisenhower.

This nonsense has got to stop. What could you better do with $5 Trillion? Things a whole lot better!

 

[Ajay]

South Korea maybe getting antsy considering the out come of this episode.

Uh, no.

 

[Z15CAM]

Ajay: Don't forget Taiwan or Japan ;o)

 

[Leeea]

Well, to, uh, preserve the current relative peace, we are moving in these from the 160th SOAR.

View attachment 49132

That is just a peaceful rescue helicopter, nothing to see here.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I only need to respond to the initial post. You are right on -- spot on. Biden is talking about Sunk Cost. If you have a business, losing money year after year, and throwing more and more money into the enterprise to recoup the previous loss, the only sound business decision is to cut bait, salvage what you can in dollar asset-values, and do something else.

When there are lives lost, your average citizen insists on making those losses meaningful by doing just the opposite. That's what happened in Vietnam, a decade after SEATO withdrew from the conflict. Eisenhower had not wanted a land war in Asia and chose only to put in advisors. Johnson had come under the influence of hawks on the JCS, reversing Kennedy's plan to "vietnamize" the war and get out. Look at the other major powers. Are they occupying little countries half a world away? The Soviets had tried their own Vietnam experiment in Afghanistan with a little more success, leaving a government in place after they withdrew, but that didn't last long with the Taliban insurgency.

Vietnam resulted in nothing but a loss in excess of 2 million lives in addition to the treasure expended on it. We had relocated 1.7 million Vietnamese to serve as an electorate for Diem, and we had designed the ballots in his election for appeal to Vietnamese superstition -- guaranteeing his election.

It is not a "political" argument to observe that the GOP precipitated -- first -- the nation-building expense of $2 Trillion in Afghanistan, and -- second -- the insistence to overthrow Saddam with an accumulated price-tag of $3 Trillion under the same nation-building fantasy. Worse, the Iraq War led to the metastasizing birth and growth of ISIS.

Your average GOP voter wants to totally eliminate a steady-state of global tension, which is folly. We lived for many decades under the possibility of a nuclear war, which we (so far) prevented. We have to accept the idea that money spent elsewhere can be spent at home instead. I still have a theory that some elements of the GOP just wanted to fritter it away on warfare, and deprive us of an ability to use the tax revenues in domestic programs and spending.

Veterans of these failed war adventures have nothing -- nothing to be ashamed of. They deserve the highest honors. Preserving the nation-state of the USA is the first priority. We chose to call our war-making establishment the "Department of Defense" as opposed to the "War Department". And barring a national security threat to the USA, this is not some NFL game or global World Series or a race on the SPEED channel. Such was the mistake of the last administration, with their "we win -- you lose" response to the popular majority who otherwise won the election for Clinton. Four years of hurting people! Four years of doing nothing constructive to prepare for a withdrawal, to say "Exit strategy? I don't need an exit strategy!" A blocked transition to the next administration, which might have allowed for better preparation.

But -- oh, no! This is "all on Biden's watch". Now let me tell you about the Bay of Pigs. Kennedy chose to take the heat. The entire plan was flawed, and developed by CIA under Eisenhower.

This nonsense has got to stop. What could you better do with $5 Trillion? Things a whole lot better!

the amount of domestic investment we could have made would have been astronomical. or we could have just as easily countered china's belt-and-road policy with something much less predatory while still improving our international position.

 

[K1052]

Evacuees are piling up in Qatar plus now Bahrain and Germany slowing things down. Civil Reserve Fleet might be activated to move people from those places to bases stateside.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1429188105614069773

 

[Ajay]

the amount of domestic investment we could have made would have been astronomical. or we could have just as easily countered china's belt-and-road policy with something much less predatory while still improving our international position.

TPP. But, we know what happened to that.

 

[pauldun170]

Vice from earlier

 

[pmv]

Ajay: Don't forget Taiwan or Japan ;o)

You mean they are getting nervous that if China does something to make the US mad, the US will, following the established template, invade another country in the same general region? e.g. them?

 

[A///]

Taiwan, Korea and Japan are regional partners. That partnerships is several times longer than this Afghanistan debacle. Afghanistan was never and will never be a regional partner. The US's major fault was placing too much faith in Pakistan, namely their ISI, which likely forwarded what US intelligent we offered them directly to the Taliban. China only cares about their belt and road initiative here and exploiting Afghanistan's mineral stores.

I'm not entirely sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if China takes a no holds barred/we don't care approach to Afghanistan and their financial slave, Pakistan. Even the Soviets still played by most rules during their invasion of Afghanistan. Time will tell.

 

[A///]

You mean they are getting nervous that if China does something to make the US mad, the US will, following the established template, invade another country in the same general region? e.g. them?

China is all bark and no bite. If they even attempt to make a move, Whinnie the Pooh will have a bomb shoved up his behind.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

the amount of domestic investment we could have made would have been astronomical. or we could have just as easily countered china's belt-and-road policy with something much less predatory while still improving our international position.

Think of even more to demoralize us totally. Al Gore had run for president on his "Inconvenient Truth" platform. And maybe a year or so after Bush took office, LA Times had published 2 or 3 full pages on a modern "search for a Northwest Passage", which detailed the melting ice at the north pole and Greenland. The writing was on the wall.

With or without Elon Musk and Tesla, that $5 Trillion -- over time -- could have been channeled into attenuating our addiction to oil as fuel, and refining lithium battery, hydrogen fuel and other technologies. Exxon-Mobil, from the files of their internal memoranda, knew what was happening to the polar ice back in the '90s, and they knew why it was happening. Instead, they continued to pursue their short-term bottom line and kept it from the public.

In hindsight, the GOP has left its fingerprint on a trail of failed policies. And it has cost us "bigly, big-league" in time and money.

But watch them make a campaign issue of the chaos Biden explained, when the chaos was due to Trump's unwillingness to provide a smooth transition. I think the latest news revealed a Trump administration employee who recounted Trump's reversal of any visa program that would've accommodated the Afghan interpreters and their families -- all part of his, and Stephen Miller's -- racist ban on Muslim travel and immigration.

Those sonsab****es need to serve hard time, and this isn't just some "lock him up!" mantra. It's a response to criminals.

 

[cytg111]

Think of even more to demoralize us totally. Al Gore had run for president on his "Inconvenient Truth" platform. And maybe a year or so after Bush took office, LA Times had published 2 or 3 full pages on a modern "search for a Northwest Passage", which detailed the melting ice at the north pole and Greenland. The writing was on the wall.

With or without Elon Musk and Tesla, that $5 Trillion -- over time -- could have been channeled into attenuating our addiction to oil as fuel, and refining lithium battery, hydrogen fuel and other technologies. Exxon-Mobil, from the files of their internal memoranda, knew what was happening to the polar ice back in the '90s, and they knew why it was happening. Instead, they continued to pursue their short-term bottom line and kept it from the public.

In hindsight, the GOP has left its fingerprint on a trail of failed policies. And it has cost us "bigly, big-league" in time and money.

But watch them make a campaign issue of the chaos Biden explained, when the chaos was due to Trump's unwillingness to provide a smooth transition. I think the latest news revealed a Trump administration employee who recounted Trump's reversal of any visa program that would've accommodated the Afghan interpreters and their families -- all part of his, and Stephen Miller's -- racist ban on Muslim travel and immigration.

Those sonsab****es need to serve hard time, and this isn't just some "lock him up!" mantra. It's a response to criminals.

There is an xkcd for that

Global Temperature Over My Lifetime

xkcd.com

 

[K1052]

8k out of Kabul in last 24 hours

https://twitter.com/x/status/1429429576866877441

Civil Reserve Fleet activated. 18 aircraft from US carriers.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1429410730370117638

 

[brycejones]

Yup.

A former Pence adviser said Trump had 4 years to help Afghan allies leave the country but Stephen Miller's 'racist hysteria' blocked it from happening

She claimed the allies of Trump and Miller across the administration actively worked against the visa process for Afghans who helped US troops.

www.businessinsider.com

Miller is such a shit stain his own family won’t associate with him.

 

[emperus]

The Trump's sycophants have takin gaslighting to a new level. Pompeo and JHaley giving interviews. You have to respect their level of don't care crazy though.

 

[K1052]

The Trump's sycophants have takin gaslighting to a new level. Pompeo and JHaley giving interviews. You have to respect their level of don't care crazy though.

The fault is with the outlets having them on and who are entirely failing to contextualize their culpability here in name of taking shots on the Biden admin. Pompeo himself did the deal with the Taliban for christs sake and they let him wiggle off the hook every time.

 

[Jaskalas]

Complete apples to oranges comparison being made across this topic. Where people argue on one issue, but replies speak to another.

• You'll have Republicans complaining about not killing all the Taliban. Not "winning" the war.
• You'll have Republicans complaining about not staying until the Afghan Gov could survive.
• You'll have Republicans and Democrats complaining about our Afghan allies being left to the slaughter.
• You'll have Republicans and Democrats complaining about the botched withdrawal that trapped thousands of NATO citizens behind enemy lines.

Trump's actions absolutely do not touch upon or give excuse for the fourth issue. May or may not hold responsibility for the third issue. Though a competent administrator could have straightened out allied VISAs in eight months. Our Presidents starting with Bush - are responsible for the first and second issue. Aside from staying the course, Biden holds no responsibility for those. The loss of Afghanistan to the Taliban was sealed the day Bush took his eye off the ball and attacked Iraq instead. And no one who followed cared to course correct.

It is solely Biden's fault that he botched the exit, and became wholly dependent upon the good graces of the Taliban to not slaughter tens of thousands of NATO citizens. One last factor at play, is this is an ongoing and developing situation. The stain it leaves behind has not yet taken shape. It could turn out better or worse than expected. Maybe we can complete our exit in peace. Or maybe there will be a blood bath. How it turns out will factor into the damage it causes President Biden.

Perhaps some media (beyond Republican circles) will hype up the emotional impact of Biden holding the ball, we should be clear on what he is and is not responsible for. Getting our people out safely is his job. It is scary and beyond our control at this point. It should not have come to that. We'll see how messy it becomes before the end.

 

[pauldun170]

Here is a sample script to use in case you get trapped in an elevator with someone who really loves tactical fishing hats and you don't want to argue.

It's a failure of American leadership for pulling Americans out of Afghanistan without first pulling Afghans out of Afghanistan. We should not be leaving Afghanistan until we have defeated the Afghans who are taking control of Afghanistan. We should stay as long as we can to evacuate Afghans who helped Americans and insure that none of them come here because while we don't want our Afghans to stay in Afghanistan we would rather they be someone else's problem. Except maybe the specific people that helped translate for me after we would kick down doors in that village that one time looking for Afghans next to the Mosque that we bombed with a drone. That guy was super cool and I'm crying now because he is in danger.

If only we had our more leeway to kill more Afghans after we killed Bin Laden then maybe we wouldn't have this whole situation of Afghans taking power in Afghanistan and killing afghans. That was supposed to be our job. If only we could carpet bomb stuff and brrrt all the things.

This is embarrassing. We look like we are running away when we should have left them with a democratic country that has resorts and stuff where I could have reunions and take pictures with locals. Unless those Afghans are the ones we don't like win the elections. Then it's sanctions baby and we are going to squeeze that country until its a dustbowl of starving babies and groups that we finance to blow up government buildings and stuff.
What we should be doing is carpet bombing Kabul to create a safe haven in Kabul and then It come be like before where have a nice little safe space to "complete the mission" and stuff.

 

[Ajay]

Vice from earlier

Vice has been putting out some great stuff on this. Didn’t realize how badly off some of the 'elite' Afghan military were. Exhausted, underfed, short on supplies and increasingly outgunned. Scattered around the country as little islands to enact a counter-insurgency. By early summer, the Afghan military were losing the war, even with limited support from the US.

 

[hal2kilo]

The fault is with the outlets having them on and who are entirely failing to contextualize their culpability here in name of taking shots on the Biden admin. Pompeo himself did the deal with the Taliban for christs sake and they let him wiggle off the hook every time.

MSM is a shameless whore. They're getting lots of clicks tearing down Biden right now, gotta ride the wave.

 

[K1052]

Perhaps some media (beyond Republican circles) will hype up the emotional impact of Biden holding the ball

"Perhaps" is a weird way to describe a stunningly hawkish media who is doing precisely this and practically goading the admin to engage the Taliban militarily because more war is good content.

Getting our people out safely is his job. It is scary and beyond our control at this point. It should not have come to that.

US consular staff was evacuated successfully. Americans in country were told (for months) to depart at the earliest opportunity due to deteriorating security conditions and repeatedly warned the US may not be able to come to their aid.

Biden's biggest sins here are likely not setting the expectations for what this could look like at a realistic level and getting the SIV program flowing sooner. I expect that he'll eventually get most if not all those people out but it's going to be tougher than it was a few months ago.

 

[K1052]

MSM is a shameless whore. They're getting lots of clicks tearing down Biden right now, gotta ride the wave.

They just want more war to report on. Once this is over and the US is out coverage of Afghanistan will disappear because they don't have any appetite for coverage of something without the possibility of US intervention. See also: Syria.

 

[emperus]

Complete apples to oranges comparison being made across this topic. Where people argue on one issue, but replies speak to another.

• You'll have Republicans complaining about not killing all the Taliban. Not "winning" the war.
• You'll have Republicans complaining about not staying until the Afghan Gov could survive.
• You'll have Republicans and Democrats complaining about our Afghan allies being left to the slaughter.
• You'll have Republicans and Democrats complaining about the botched withdrawal that trapped thousands of NATO citizens behind enemy lines.

Trump's actions absolutely do not touch upon or give excuse for the fourth issue. May or may not hold responsibility for the third issue. Though a competent administrator could have straightened out allied VISAs in eight months. Our Presidents starting with Bush - are responsible for the first and second issue. Aside from staying the course, Biden holds no responsibility for those. The loss of Afghanistan to the Taliban was sealed the day Bush took his eye off the ball and attacked Iraq instead. And no one who followed cared to course correct.

It is solely Biden's fault that he botched the exit, and became wholly dependent upon the good graces of the Taliban to not slaughter tens of thousands of NATO citizens. One last factor at play, is this is an ongoing and developing situation. The stain it leaves behind has not yet taken shape. It could turn out better or worse than expected. Maybe we can complete our exit in peace. Or maybe there will be a blood bath. How it turns out will factor into the damage it causes President Biden.

Perhaps some media (beyond Republican circles) will hype up the emotional impact of Biden holding the ball, we should be clear on what he is and is not responsible for. Getting our people out safely is his job. It is scary and beyond our control at this point. It should not have come to that. We'll see how messy it becomes before the end.

I hear what you are saying but your argument seems to stem from an assumption that there was a way to leave Afghanistan w/o a mess. What leads you to believe that from everything you've seen so far? The Trump cease fire was ending on May 1st. The Taliban seemed determined to retake Kabul and even did so with the US still there evacuating. The Afghan army collapsed as if they had back door agreements to do so. The Afghan president fled. Even with this breakneck evac it is still taking weeks maybe more than a month and Biden has even enlisted the help of private aircraft. Does Biden sending in more troops really avert any of this? It seems the Taliban would have pressed on still and there would have been intense fighting right now as we tried to evacuate everyone. That means everyone behind the areas the US held would have been targets. How would the US have carried out the withdrawal in that situation, in the midst of intense fighting? It seems in that scenario we possible would be evacuating dead Americans soldiers and citizens alike.

I mean game out the possibilities and find me one that doesn't end like this or worse or without us committing 100,00o more troops there.

I think the die was cast with that agreement Trump made and the subsequent troop removals right before he left office. Biden really had no good options. And this sux to say, but despite the visuals if he can get out all Americans and troops without any deaths and a majority of the Afghans that helped, I would think it worked out well.

And lastly I think you along with the media are conflating the chaos with staying forever. The Taliban was always going to take over. visual chaos or not. That is clear as DAY. What happens with the chaos was going to happen after we left without this chaos. We were leaving and could not take nor protect every woman or child or every Afghan govt. employee who the Taliban may persecute.

 

[pauldun170]

Vice has been putting out some great stuff on this. Didn’t realize how badly off some of the 'elite' Afghan military were. Exhausted, underfed, short on supplies and increasingly outgunned. Scattered around the country as little islands to enact a counter-insurgency. By early summer, the Afghan military were losing the war, even with limited support from the US.

From 2017.
It's interesting re waching some of these

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

youtu.be

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

From 2014

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com