Why bash those who believe in God?

[AlgaeEater]

Originally posted by: tagej
I'm Catholic and see nothing wrong with religion and those who have faith. That said, I do bash those who use religion to push ignorance or to defy all rational logic. My religion is between me and my creator, I don't think it should be pushed onto others, into politics, into the classroom etc etc. That's where the problems always begin. When someone tries to push their beliefs (or lack thereof) unto others, people are going to resent it.

Exact same thoughts.

 

[Praxis1452]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
If anyone feels like a rational debate (which at this point is unlikely), find flaws with the following:

Ontological Argument - Anselm

1. God exists in our understanding. This means that the concept of God resides as an idea in our minds.
2. God is a possible being, and might exist in reality. He is possible because the concept of God does not bear internal contradictions.
3. If something exists exclusively in our understanding and might have existed in reality then it might have been greater. This simply means that something that exists in reality is perfect (or great). Something that is only a concept in our minds could be greater by actually existing.
4. Suppose (theoretically) that God only exists in our understanding and not in reality.
5. If this were true, then it would be possible for God to be greater then he is (follows from premise #3).
6. This would mean that God is a being in which a greater is possible.
7. This is absurd because God, a being in which none greater is possible, is a being in which a greater is possible. Herein lies the contradiction.
8. Thus it follows that it is false for God to only exist in our understanding.
9. Hence God exists in reality as well as our understanding.

How do you jump from "it's possible" in #6 to "it exists" in #9? The point in #7 provides absolutely zero reason for whether or not something exists.

I think of it like this.

Basically the concept of greater is reality. If something exists in your mind it is less than something that exists in reality. If god were to exist then he would be greater than if he were only in your mind. But god cannot be greater. He can only be the greatest. Therefore the previous assumption was wrong and he does exist.

Don't argue with me. I'm just trying to explain.

 

[DangerAardvark]

The problem is that a Christian can say "Jesus Christ is the one, true God" and no one accuses him of "bashing" every religion that doesn't believe in his god. Yet anything said with the same certainty from an Atheist standpoint is instantly regarded as an attack.

The root of it is this sort of artificial air of respect surrounding religion. It is considered bad taste to criticize one's religious beliefs. Yet, most any other opinion or view they have is fair game. No reasonable discussion or debate can really occur in such a climate.

Anyway, the point is that religious people need to stop playing the victim card. They need to understand the difference between criticism and bigotry.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: kotss

You might not realize it, but God might of affected you or touched your life in some way.

However, there is at least one fundamental truth in it. Jesus died and raised from the dead 3 days later to open the gates of heaven.

These were the two quotes from Hyperblaze that triggered my reaction.

Yeah, I can understand that. Stating beliefs as fact is rather bothersome to those who don't share your viewpoint.

I should of mentioned "I believe" in front of those two statements. I can understand how it might offend some folks if I say those two phrases like "fact". Even if I believe it's true, doesn't mean others do.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Viper0329
They're all flawed. And this is coming from the guy who is studying for the Catholic Priesthood. If you really want me to post them, PM me and I'll do the research.

I know they are all flawed. I was just trying to move to a rational debate on religion, instead of the OMFGWTFZUPBBQ!!!1!1!1RELIGIONSUXORZ!!! type drivel I always read. So, go ahead and post them.

So you decided to start a debate by providing flawed arguments? Isn't that just a fancier way of say OMGGODISLEET!

 

[antillean]

Because you try to undermine our constitution. Because you prevent people from receiving education regarding HIV. Because you constantly treat scientific fact as opinion. Because you try and succeed in making your religious views public policy, infringing on the rights of others. Because your recently developed extreme zealotry, known as fundamentalism, is extremely dangerous to a free society.

 

[dbk]

I don't bash but please keep it to yourself...stop invading my life with your religion.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
If anyone feels like a rational debate (which at this point is unlikely), find flaws with the following:

Ontological Argument - Anselm

1. God exists in our understanding. This means that the concept of God resides as an idea in our minds.
2. God is a possible being, and might exist in reality. He is possible because the concept of God does not bear internal contradictions.
3. If something exists exclusively in our understanding and might have existed in reality then it might have been greater. This simply means that something that exists in reality is perfect (or great). Something that is only a concept in our minds could be greater by actually existing.
4. Suppose (theoretically) that God only exists in our understanding and not in reality.
5. If this were true, then it would be possible for God to be greater then he is (follows from premise #3).
6. This would mean that God is a being in which a greater is possible.
7. This is absurd because God, a being in which none greater is possible, is a being in which a greater is possible. Herein lies the contradiction.
8. Thus it follows that it is false for God to only exist in our understanding.
9. Hence God exists in reality as well as our understanding.

So something that exists as an idea is lesser than the thing in reality The idea is ALWAYS lesser, and the thing in reality is ALWAYS greater.

#4 supposes that god only exists as an idea. That is to say it is a lesser version of god. I take great pains to point out that this is a lesser version.

#5 makes the assumption that the lesser, imagined version of god carries with it the full force of god's greatness, making it somehow equal to to the reality. The imagined version is not god. If we are to follow the rules of this argument then this version would ALWAYS be lesser than the hypothetical reality of god, whether he exists or not.

#6 refers to #5 once again sneaking in the assumption that the idea of god carries equal greatness as the reality of god, when in fact we are talking about 2 versions. One of which is lesser (idea) and the other being potentially greater (hypothetical reality) as per the rules of the original argument.

This argument is basically intellectual sleight of hand. It gets to the point of God being greater than himself by forgetting that if something exists in the mind it is LESSER than the reality. Of course a real god would be greater than the idea of god. That in no way proves he exists.

Cosmological Argument - Aquinas (shortened)

1. Every being (that exists or ever did exist) is either a dependent being or a self-existent being.
2. Not every being can be a dependent being.
3. So there exists a self-existent being.

This one is simple. #2 is fanciful imagination. It is entirely possible that every being in existence is dependent upon something else.

Teleological Argument - Aquinas

"We see that things that lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God."

Origin of Species. Natural selection. People also thought during this period that all sorts of animal life miraculously sprang up wherever water was present, which explained why there were animals near water sources. If you look at a living thing with the assumption that all of its kind sprang into existence exactly as it is now then it's very easy to think that it must be designed.

 

[Nocturnal]

I'm a Christian and it's because of the radical Christians and the radical Christian right that abuse their power and exploit Christianity.

 

[alien42]

unfortunately organized religion and hypocrisy often cross paths.

 

[compuwiz1]

I don't bash people who don't believe in God....I pity them.

In the end, if it turns out opposite of their beliefs, they are in deep shit.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: antillean
Because you try to undermine our constitution. Because you prevent people from receiving education regarding HIV. Because you constantly treat scientific fact as opinion. Because you try and succeed in making your religious views public policy, infringing on the rights of others. Because your recently developed extreme zealotry, known as fundamentalism, is extremely dangerous to a free society.

well gee....

thanks for accusing EVERYONE who believe in God of those things.

I don't even live in the states and you accuse me of undermining your constitution?

I never argued that fundamentalism is bad.

I have a difficult time talking to fundies actually. Like I said in my OP, I'm probably considered a heretic in some circles.

There are bad apples everywhere.

PS: you REALLY think you live in a free society? The US has lost so many rights of freedom it's not even funny. I'd consider Canada more free then the US now.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Inspector Jihad

Originally posted by: Mucho
Speaking for myself, I always associate religion with intolerance.

thats the irony of it, isn't it.

Heh. Indeed.

People love generalizations. They like to put other people in boxes. You're a this and he's a that, etc. It makes the world neat, orderly, understandable, and therefore safe. The danger though is that it also dehumanizes, making bigotry, intolerance, and hatred that much easier if left unchecked.

 

[Skacer]

Religions don't get bashed by nonbelievers because they believe in god, but because they make up rules and lifestyle decisions based on their belief, and they think everyone in the world should adhere to them. Trying to tell another person what to do is one of the universal best ways to make someone hate you.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
I don't bash people who don't believe in God....I pity them.

In the end, if it turns out opposite of their beliefs, they are in deep shit.

meh. I'm not worried. If it actually turns out different then what I believe, someone's got lots of explaining to do.....

And I'm not talking about anyone who's alive.

Kinda hard to explain if you don't believe in God.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze
I've never understand why folks bash those who believe in a superior being.

It's fun. Next.

 

[Homerboy]

Originally posted by: RollWave

Originally posted by: purbeast0
because it makes them feel good.

i've always noticed that people who don't believe in god have to let everyone know they don't believe in god, whereas everyone i know that believes in god kind of just keeps that fact to themself.

however I know many other people's experiences on these boards are different.

FALSE

Nope I have to agree with purbeast0 here. I know more peopel that go out of their way to try to convince beleivers that there is no God than vice versa. Its like they smell blood in the water or something and have to immediately defend THEIR belief of no God while the religous person just smiles and nods and says "Ok thats fine..."

 

[AbAbber2k]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
I don't bash people who don't believe in God....I pity them.

In the end, if it turns out opposite of their beliefs, they are in deep shit.

I also bash "believers" because they tell me I'm in deep shit if I don't find Jesus. A friend of mine (well... co-worker) once tried to guilt trip me into becoming a Christian. He said to me "I will feel so bad for you when I'm standing at the gates of heaven, and I look down and see you at the gates of hell". I would have told him to go fuck himself, but the company was run by a bunch of religious nuts, and they probably would have fired me. Course I probably could have sued and could be rolling in dough right now... damnit!

And what kind of fucking moron subscribes to a particular faith because of the potential negative consequences. It's like playing Russian Roulette.

 

[Ronstang]

I don't bash people for their beliefs. I only have a problem with them when they insist on "sharing" about it. I don't need someone telling me what to believe and if you want to reinforce, justify, and attempt to validate your beliefs then do it elsewhere. It is the insecure that need everyone else to believe the same as they do.

 

[NanoStuff]

I for one would like to formally declare that god can lick my balls.

Does hell run on 220V? do I need to bring a transformer?

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: purbeast0
because it makes them feel good.

i've always noticed that people who don't believe in god have to let everyone know they don't believe in god, whereas everyone i know that believes in god kind of just keeps that fact to themself.

however I know many other people's experiences on these boards are different.

My experiences are exactly the opposite. No one is ever going to know how I feel or what I believe about religion/god unless they are a VERY close personal friend and we are discussing the matter.

I have NEVER had anyone just blurt out that they don't believe in god but I have had MANY people try to force their religion/god upon me without them even knowing my position at all. The worst being Born Agains and the Mormons. I'm 44 years old so I am going to have to go with what I have experienced as more of the norm.

 

[meltdown75]

Why do people bash anything? Ignorance is the most common reason.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Viper0329

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
If anyone feels like a rational debate (which at this point is unlikely), find flaws with the following:

Ontological Argument - Anselm

1. God exists in our understanding. This means that the concept of God resides as an idea in our minds.
2. God is a possible being, and might exist in reality. He is possible because the concept of God does not bear internal contradictions.
3. If something exists exclusively in our understanding and might have existed in reality then it might have been greater. This simply means that something that exists in reality is perfect (or great). Something that is only a concept in our minds could be greater by actually existing.
4. Suppose (theoretically) that God only exists in our understanding and not in reality.
5. If this were true, then it would be possible for God to be greater then he is (follows from premise #3).
6. This would mean that God is a being in which a greater is possible.
7. This is absurd because God, a being in which none greater is possible, is a being in which a greater is possible. Herein lies the contradiction.
8. Thus it follows that it is false for God to only exist in our understanding.
9. Hence God exists in reality as well as our understanding.

Cosmological Argument - Aquinas (shortened)

1. Every being (that exists or ever did exist) is either a dependent being or a self-existent being.
2. Not every being can be a dependent being.
3. So there exists a self-existent being.

Teleological Argument - Aquinas

"We see that things that lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God."

They're all flawed. And this is coming from the guy who is studying for the Catholic Priesthood. If you really want me to post them, PM me and I'll do the research.

ROTFL! Oh man, that is great!

<wipes tears from his eyes>

Aaaaaahahaha....LOL!

I tell you what, ATOT is always good for a laugh.






Oh wait, were you being serious?

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
I don't bash people who don't believe in God....I pity them.

In the end, if it turns out opposite of their beliefs, they are in deep shit.

LOL, the 'ol scare tactic.

Hey man, I don't bash people that don't believe in Big Foot... I pity them.

In the end, if it turns out opposite of their beliefs, they are in deep shit. They'll have to live in the deep, dark...ummm...cold...yeah cold forest, FOREVER! Ooooooo!

 

[NanoStuff]

Originally posted by: Homerboy
I know more peopel that go out of their way to try to convince beleivers that there is no God than vice versa. Its like they smell blood in the water or something and have to immediately defend THEIR belief of no God while the religous person just smiles and nods and says "Ok thats fine..."

The reason for that is non-religious are mostly intelligent, rational people. Their intentions are to get you to understand so that you don't have to remain an ignorant douche for the remainder of your life, they're trying to do you a favor. The reason the religious 'smile and nod' is because they have nothing intelligent to say in return, because of course there is nothing intelligent to be said in favor of their flaccid belief. Walking away is their 'god given' response to blank our rational thought. 'lalala I can't hear you, god is great, praise god lalala, I didn't hear a thing, lalala'.