Why are the democrats still hand-counting ballots?

[cxim]

I don't understand Russ. What is an honest democrat ?

 

[Michael]

JoeBaD - if you read up on what happened in Duval County, you will find out that the Democrat "get out the vote" effort screwed up. It was Democrats that made mistakes and cancelled their votes.

Michael

 

[JoeBaD]

Ride,

the point is that is MIGHTY FISHY.

..and having a bunch of minimum wage workers so called recounting these ballots aint gonna make it smell any better.

I agree that the Reps would be demanding a recount if the situation were reversed. The difference is that I don't believe that the Reps are as capable of stealing this election as the Dems (not that they're of higher moral character, but that they just don't have the human assets in place to do it). Face it, there probably aren't too many of those low income ballot counters that voted for Bush. It doesn't take much to poke a hole or make an indentation in one of those ballots as you're handling them. And, yeah, I think they'd do it.

As I said before. I think the Dems will do whatever it takes to win this election. And its ANY MEANS TO THAT END!

 

[chess9]

Russ:

I wondered how long it would be before you started singing that tune. Can't stomach a different opinion, eh?

By the way, folks, apparently this was done by the Supremes on their own. This was done to maintain the status quo, but I'm not sure it mattered. How would an invalid certification of results by Harris have changed anything? Strange? Maybe they wanted to give Gore's people some hope for this weekend.

 

[ride525]

<< I see I was wrong when I speculated that a few honest democrats may have made it on to the Florida State Supreme Court. I should have known better. >>



This result was easy to predict....they HAD to put a temporary hold on certification, until they have heard and ruled on all the election-rated stuff.

What's not so easy to predict, is what the FINAL ruling will be.

 

[chess9]

JoeBad:

Duval County didn't do a re-count out of fear that the votes would have gone Gore's way. You see, women and minorities tend to screw up their ballots much more often than, say, white males. I happen to agree with that conventional wisdom. There would have been no gain in Duval County for Bush if a re-count had occurred.

 

[chess9]

Ride:

I disagree. I think Harris would have looked like a complete idiot if she had certified results with a major Supreme Court case pending, but if she did it, it wouldn't have changed the Supremes mind. Only the important facts will be considered.

 

[JoeBaD]

Michael,

let me understand.

in one county the Dems voted for Buchanan instead of Gore because they were confused.

and in the other county the Dems voted for Bush because they were confused.

LOL

 

[ride525]

Joe,

Sorry, not sure I still get it....what's fishy?

The fact that there are 22,000 ballots disqualified in Duval County (a Republican area)?

I think there were almost 20,000 ballots disqualified in Palm Beach County (a Democratic area)?

 

[Michael]

I'm curious as to where you would appeal the injunction to. I wonder if you could make an emergency appeal to the US Supreme Court. The appeal would be that the Florida Supreme Court is interfering with the proper authority and duties of the elected branch of government.

Michael

 

[ride525]

<< I disagree. I think Harris would have looked like a complete idiot if she had certified results with a major Supreme Court case pending, but if she did it, it wouldn't have changed the Supremes mind. Only the important facts will be considered. >>



Chess9,

What are you disagreeing on?

 

[Michael]

JoeBaD - I think that the Duval section for President on the Duval ballot was divided into two pages. The voters that the Democrats bussed over were told again and again that they had to vote in every section and that they had to vote Democrat.

They voted for Gore on the first page. On the second page the were five other candidates for President. They voted for one of the five therefore making two votes for Predient and invalidating their vote.

Michael

 

[Engineer]

Sorry...missed this in the other part of the threads....sorry again

:Q

 

[ride525]

<< I'm curious as to where you would appeal the injunction to. I wonder if you could make an emergency appeal to the US Supreme Court. The appeal would be that the Florida Supreme Court is interfering with the proper authority and duties of the elected branch of government. >>



I suppose the Republicans COULD appeal to some FEDERAL court. But, the FEDERAL courts seem to be reluctant to get involved in state's issues. My take on this is that much of this involves Florida law, and the interpretation of Florida law. I think the Florida Supreme Court has the FINAL say in Florida law and how it is intrepreted.

Now there are also some Federal Election laws involved in other cases, but this seems more arguing over Florida law, like when the Florida deadlines are, and should be, and whether manual recounts should be allowed in Florida. All Florida STATE law.

My take is that there will be a lot of appeals from both sides.....

 

[chess9]

Ride:

Your assertion that they had to put a temporary hold on certification. Not so. This was a blatant PR effort by the Florida Supreme Court. They are sending a strong message to the people that that Lewis' ruling is in danger and the counts should go forward. But it makes no difference in how they ultimately rule. I think this is a major point because they did it on their own. This is sotto voce with the rubber mallet.

 

[chess9]

Ride:

Victoria Toensing, a right wing Republican lawyer said the case doesn't belong in Federal Court! I'm guessing the Federal Appeals Court will kick those two cases out the door.

That leaves the Florida Supremes as the only refs.

Looking mighty bleak for W.

Michael:

If she certifies results, she will go to jail so fast her head will swim. Furthermore, it would be a rookie move for the RePubliClowns to make. Americans would take grave exception to such conduct.

I guess we know why you aren't a lawyer.

(Ditto for me.)

 

[chess9]

Swami Says:

I predict Bush goes to about 800 votes with absentees counted. Then the PBC and Broward County results will start coming in Saturday evening. By Monday, Gore will be leading. If Miami-Dade wades into the fray, then Gore will win by several thousand easily.

 

[ride525]

<< Face it, there probably aren't too many of those low income ballot counters that voted for Bush. It doesn't take much to poke a hole or make an indentation in one of those ballots as you're handling them. >>



I've thought that all of this counting is done in front of both Republican and Democrat observers.

And I've heard over and over that Republicans don't want ANY recounts, since they think the recounts would hurt their vote. One theory is that many of the additional votes might come from women who didn't quite push the punch out hard enough.

Gore offered to have the WHOLE state recounted, Bush turned him down.

 

[Russ]

chess9,

If your scenario actually played out, then I would hope that Bush would have the guts to drag Bore and his minions in to court to show the world exactly the level of fraud and manipulation that has occured in this attempt to steal the election.

ride525,

Yes, there are both Republican and democrat observers, but the final decision on each vote is left up to a democrat. The criteria is different in each county, and there are already complaints filed alleging manipulation of the ballots.

This thing smells worse every minute.

Russ, NCNE

 

[DefRef]

chess9 perfectly stated the hopes of the Gore team: The certified vote count from Tuesday will be added to the absentee ballots to give the final margin of victory for Bush. Then the Democrats in the recount areas will know how many votes they need to make up to steal the election. It's a good plan (unless you're old-fashioned and believe the law matters).

 

[Capn]

It would take Gore a long time to recount all those ballots all by himself. Seeing as he has no authority to offer any recounts, and seeing as the current recounts are being fought based on schedule the other recounts couldn't have been done either. Gore made a political PR move to spin the story his way, that's all it was. He could've offered world peace and a new car for everyone too but he as about as much chance of doing that as well.

 

[Michael]

chess9 - Now I'm very confused. The Florida Supreme Court decided to make an injunction to delay the certification of the ballot without being asked to do so? I have never heard of a court making a ruling or injunction like that without a request.

I also am confused about why it is taking so long to have the hearing.

Michael

ps - I doubt that they would toss the SoS in jail. Maybe she can have them hauled into jail for interfering with her lawful duties <grin>

 

[ride525]

<< Yes, there are both Republican and democrat observers, but the final decision on each vote is left up to a democrat. The criteria is different in each county, and there are already complaints filed alleging manipulation of the ballots. >>



You are right, there seems to be different criteria. I don't know think there is any Florida law spelling out the criteria though. In fact I think the Democrats have requested the Florida Supreme Court to spell out the criteria that would be appropriate. I don't think the Florida SC has ruled on this however, and they might rule that since there is no Florida law governing this, that it is up the each county.

It seems likely to me that there WOULD be Democrats on these election boards since these are Democratic counties. If any of the Republican counties in Florida had chosen to do this, I would think that their boards would be predominately Republican. I would trust you to be on such a board. I would think your decisions would be consistent and honest. Hopefully, all of these folks working on this will be honest and consistent.

 

[chess9]

Russ and others:

I'm sorry, but it's the Republicans who are trying to steal the election by preventing legitimate votes from being counted.

In addition, one of the talking heads on CNN just mentioned that the 20K + plus votes disallowed in Duval County (Jacksonville, Florida) were in overwhelmingly African American precincts. This is nothing more than Jim Crow rearing its ugly head again. First you tell Blacks they can't vote, then when you lose that issue you make the process so difficult they can't vote properly.

I think this whole mess stinks and points up how important it is to provide a reasonable means of voting for all people. Don't forget, you may vote, regardless of I.Q. or even if you happen to have poor spatial abilities and can't line an arrow up with a dot. (Many people can't.)

Frankly, I think a lot of people on this board are too stupid to vote, but I'm not here telling them they can't vote. j/k

I hope the next election sample ballots (ACTUAL sample ballots) are mailed to all registered voters or we have computerized voting that is fair to everyone.

If Democracy is really going to work, everyone needs to be able to participate.

 

[chess9]

Michael:

Yes, and Greta van Susterin must be reading AnandTech because she just parroted my exact point.

Also, Boyden Gray, who I cannot stand or fathom, just said he thinks the Florida Supreme Court is going to allow the hand counted ballots. He also thinks this matter will go to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals.

Meanwhile, the Republicans are planning on stealing the election in the Florida State Legislature or in the U.S. Congress by objecting to the process in Florida. I hope they aren't planning on running for re-election in two years.