Why are People Constantly Complaining about the Economy?

[soulcougher73]

Excellent summation.


Another excellent post. We have far too many people expecting that any four year degree is going to make them flush, based on the hay day when we first started outsourcing our production. The cost savings of going to cheap non-US labor made US corporations highly profitable, allowing them to hire lots of fluff jobs. The foreign corporations that previously manufactured our products are now serious direct competitors, requiring US corporations to cut out all those cushy college grad jobs that weren't truly necessary. Those jobs aren't coming back. If anything we'll continue to hemorrhage good white collar jobs as development is also moved offshore (like Government Motors) and as foreign corporations take over or drive out of business their bloated American competitors. (I'm assuming here that upper management will continue cutting and divesting to maintain their own compensation at bloated levels - I think that's a reasonably safe assumption.)


True, and well said. We're seeing the confluence of several factors - the maturation of our outsourcing production houses becoming serious competitors and the accompanying requirement to become leaner, our lower need for jobs due to outsourcing, our increasing regulatory and tax burden, our softening work ethic, our out of control illegal immigration and higher legal immigration (inflating the labor supply as the demand shrinks), and as BoberFet pointed out elsewhere increased productivity (primarily through automation) requiring fewer people to do the same work. Put this together with our massive debt load and the huge amounts of wealth stripped out in the derivatives fiasco and it should be easy for anyone to see why the economy is suffering.

Another issue is that we've made it easier to exist without a job. A family friend was laid off and refused to even send out resumes until he had exhausted all two years of unemployment compensation, because living with (and off of) his father that was sufficient for his needs. After that ran out, he got a good job with Homeland Security because in its infinite wisdom, the federal government gives preference to the long time unemployed. Let's all contemplate the blinding efficiency THAT little wrinkle will bring to the federal government . . .

One more thing about great jobs in general. I have a buddy who was IT director at a major hospital. His entire department was slowly phased out, and there are damned few equivalent jobs for someone in his fifties. He went back school, went through the electrical apprenticeship program and got his journeyman license. Now he's wiring custom automation equipment, working a hell of a lot harder for a lot less money. Another guy, friend of a friend, was president of a company for almost twenty years. One day in 2008 the CEO came in and told him go away, we don't need you anymore. To cut costs, they simply rolled his position into the CEO's. There simply aren't many equivalent positions around. A lot of companies are simply removing their top level people and giving the work to either their direct bosses, or their underlings (or both.) Those jobs probably aren't coming back either.

All really good information. Ive noticed lately ive seen more talk about lack of jobs, automation, outsourcing, population growth etc. As you mentioned BoberFett who i read a few days ago mentioning that. I hope this gets talked about more because i fear it is what is really going to bring this country/world to its knees sooner or later.

Here is the post i started awhile back bringing those types of questions up. Maybe it got some of you thinking about it or maybe just now talking about it. Either way its a good urgent topic that needs some kind of attention from the government IMO.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2240154&highlight=population

 

[Capt Caveman]

haha I lol'ed. You are correct. It annoys me how these snooty liberal arts people act like they are enlightened. What, so engineering and computer science degrees can't be enlightening? If they were truly enlightened, they would have pursued a degree that actually has real-world value.

You're not enlightened. You're as ignorant as they come.

And define real-world value? I'm know many liberal arts majors making a more positive impact on society than you.

 

[TalonStrike]

You're not enlightened. You're as ignorant as they come.

And define real-world value? I'm know many liberal arts majors making a more positive impact on society than you.

lol you represent the epitome of ignorance.

 

[Doppel]

You people who talk about getting 'real degrees that pay" etc have no grip on reality. If they just got rid of all the degrees you deem "useless" then everyone would go into engineering, law, accounting etc that you deem worthwhile. Gee i wonder what happens when you have 100million enginners in the US. Oh look, your so called "real degree" is now useless because there are now way to many engineers running around all wanting 60K+ to start. Then the wages start to decrease until engineers are just another $10/hour job anyone can do.

Open your eyes and think for once. You are only making the big bucks now because you are in demand due to how few of you there are compared to the working population. People experince supply and demand just as an product does.

"They" are never going to "just [get] rid of all the degrees deem useless". There won't be 100 million engineers in the US any time soon, as there won't be 100 million physicians, even though many of us would like our kids to go into that field. Do you think recommending a child go into medicine is bad because if "everybody was a doctor", then its pay would go down to $10/hour as well? It would, if there were, but there won't be. Most are just not smart enough to be competent physicians no matter how flexible the entry requirements were. And many cannot get a decent degree nor offer any beneficial ability within its field.

The advice to not get a toilet paper degree is advice I'd give to people who could realistically serve in a fruitful capacity in that area. I don't think liberal arts degree majors are significantly stupider than those with science degrees, I just think they are lazier, taken as a whole, and/or ignorant of what their degree will get them. Or they just don't care; I doubt things have changed, but I don't think many who were getting these TP degrees when I was in school had much illusion about it being a ticket to a job, but they simply didn't care because it was a few years off and drinking was THIS WEEKEND!

I got my degree many years ago. And even back then we all made fun of those with liberal arts degrees. Sociology was worthless then, worthless now, will be worthless long after I'm gone (for most people). You are right that things ebb and flow, but only to a degree (hee hee). There has never been a time when physicians were not in strong demand. And there has never been a time when a history major's skill set was in strong demand.

I personally came very close to getting one of these toilet paper degrees and I blame that in part on myself and in part on the culture at the time (apparently still alive and well) that said it doesn't matter. Well, it does. If I had left school with a lot of debt and a major in music I'd be scrounging out a living teaching kids piano because there's not much else I could do with it.

I read on NPR recently a comment that made me laugh. Paraphrased: "I talk to a philosophy major every day. He asks if I want cream with my latte."

 

[Doppel]

This tracks earnings by degree, interesting:

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/coll...s_lifetime_income_based_on_college_major.html

 

[Infohawk]

Because these degrees cost real money to get and yet don't make real money. You could still get a minor in English lit if u want but the urge is to major in something that is more likely to lead to a real job.

What is "real" money? What is a "real" job? Your own link shows that non-STEM majors make money.

 

[Doppel]

What is "real" money? What is a "real" job? Your own link shows that non-STEM majors make money.

You know exactly what I mean.

 

[TalonStrike]

You know exactly what I mean.

I know what you mean.

Annoys me how the liberal arts people in here keep acting like everything is so ambiguous when it is not at all. If you have to ask whether or not your degree is useless, then it probably is.

 

[Infohawk]

You know exactly what I mean.

Well I'm giving you a chance to explain yourself because my assumption is that your argument is ridiculous. For example, you criticize English majors. English majors can become teachers. I would hope you're not suggesting teaching isn't a real job or that they don't make enough money (whatever "enough" is).

 

[Capt Caveman]

lol you represent the epitome of ignorance.

How? You're the one making stupid ignorant statements here, as well as 99% of your threads. I'm not the only one calling you out here, either. Plenty of liberal majors out there that make more money and/or add more to society than you ever will.

Read/watch the news, use google, volunteer at a homeless shelter/food kitchen and you'd be less ignorant and wouldn't have to make so many ignorant threads.

 

[Doppel]

Well I'm giving you a chance to explain yourself because my assumption is that your argument is ridiculous. For example, you criticize English majors. English majors can become teachers. I would hope you're not suggesting teaching isn't a real job or that they don't make enough money (whatever "enough" is).

Not sure what your game is on this one...it should be clear enough I mean real as in lots, not real as in does it exist or does it not. You can make "real money" at McDonalds, but CEOs are making real money.

Enough money is subjective to some extent, and to others not. I.e. if you have to pay back an insane amount of money and your income is that of a new teacher it probably won't seem like enough.

Not only can English majors become teachers they can also become a CEO or an entrepreneur, though one of the courses I took as part of my science degree was statistics and it told me that just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. And this is precisely borne out by my link. Science dominates; arts are dominated.

My main gist is we need to stop telling high school grads that any degree is good enough. If they want to get an easy degree (because arts degrees are much easier to get than science) then they should know they're more likely to have a lower income later on and throughout their career and try to gain employment among a more competitive field because their skill set just isn't valued as much.

 

[TalonStrike]

How? You're the one making stupid ignorant statements here, as well as 99% of your threads. I'm not the only one calling you out here, either. Plenty of liberal majors out there that make more money and/or add more to society than you ever will.

Read/watch the news, use google, volunteer at a homeless shelter/food kitchen and you'd be less ignorant and wouldn't have to make so many ignorant threads.

Would you like some cheese with that whine? It's not my fault you didn't major in something useful and weren't able to get a good job.

 

[werepossum]

All really good information. Ive noticed lately ive seen more talk about lack of jobs, automation, outsourcing, population growth etc. As you mentioned BoberFett who i read a few days ago mentioning that. I hope this gets talked about more because i fear it is what is really going to bring this country/world to its knees sooner or later.

Here is the post i started awhile back bringing those types of questions up. Maybe it got some of you thinking about it or maybe just now talking about it. Either way its a good urgent topic that needs some kind of attention from the government IMO.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2240154&highlight=population

Agreed. Seems to me we really have three or four interconnected problems.
(1) How do we keep good jobs in America?
(2) How do we react to increasingly capable automation, which increases productivity and societal wealth but also devalues labor, decreases the number of jobs (especially well-paying jobs), and concentrates wealth into the hands of the resource owners?
(3) How do we handle the increasing reality that humans will be needed to consume wealth far more than they are needed to produce it?
(4) Assuming we can solve #3 acceptably, how do we produce the raw materials necessary for a world of automated production without further destroying our environment? And assuming we solve THAT problem, what do we do with the garbage?

I'm going to post a modified version of this back in your thread so that anyone wanting to weigh in won't further derail this thread.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2240154&highlight=population

 

[Arglebargle]

One of the general assets of an engineering degree is critical thinking and problem solving.

I was amused to run across info on a company that employs engineers: But they won't hire any engineer who does not also work with his hands in some field or hobby. Car mechanics, carpentry, that sort of thing. They said that their experiance was that engineers who don't work with their hands were not good enough at real world solutions.

But I guess the guys lacking that can still get jobs elsewhere. Wonder if basket weaving might have helped them though....

 

[Infohawk]

Not sure what your game is on this one...it should be clear enough I mean real as in lots, not real as in does it exist or does it not. You can make "real money" at McDonalds, but CEOs are making real money.

Enough money is subjective to some extent, and to others not. I.e. if you have to pay back an insane amount of money and your income is that of a new teacher it probably won't seem like enough.

Not only can English majors become teachers they can also become a CEO or an entrepreneur, though one of the courses I took as part of my science degree was statistics and it told me that just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. And this is precisely borne out by my link. Science dominates; arts are dominated.

My main gist is we need to stop telling high school grads that any degree is good enough. If they want to get an easy degree (because arts degrees are much easier to get than science) then they should know they're more likely to have a lower income later on and throughout their career and try to gain employment among a more competitive field because their skill set just isn't valued as much.

When people complain about the economy, they're not saying that they want to make as much money as a CEO. You're trying to act like most English majors end up working at McDonalds. Do you realize that only a third of the adult population even has a college degree? It's not the English majors that are likely to be working at McDonalds. It's people with a high school diploma or worse.

I don't think most English majors go into it wanting to become rich. Lots of people want to have a middle-class standard of living while doing something they enjoy.

 

[Capt Caveman]

When people complain about the economy, they're not saying that they want to make as much money as a CEO. You're trying to act like most English majors end up working at McDonalds. Do you realize that only a third of the adult population even has a college degree? It's not the English majors that are likely to be working at McDonalds. It's people with a high school diploma or worse.

I don't think most English majors go into it wanting to become rich. Lots of people want to have a middle-class standard of living while doing something they enjoy.

I know several English majors. My cousin started out as an editorial assistant for a publishing company which led to becoming a senior technical editor at one of the largest software companies in the US making six figures. But then decided to go back to school and is now a social worker, something she loves and making 1/4 of what she used to make.

A friend from high school got a degree in English and his first job was as a concierge for a large apartment complex. He also interned for free at a advertising company which led to a copywriter position at a large newspaper. He's now a senior copywriter for a large digital marketing firm and just bought a house on the beach for his family.

Another ended-up in software sales and makes a good living.

I'm pretty confident that all of them make or made more money than the OP.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Would you like some cheese with that whine? It's not my fault you didn't major in something useful and weren't able to get a good job.

:biggrin: Keep on trolling b/c you can't be this ignorant. And want to bet $10k that I make more money than you? Have more degrees than you?

I manage nubs like you.

 

[werepossum]

When people complain about the economy, they're not saying that they want to make as much money as a CEO. You're trying to act like most English majors end up working at McDonalds. Do you realize that only a third of the adult population even has a college degree? It's not the English majors that are likely to be working at McDonalds. It's people with a high school diploma or worse.

I don't think most English majors go into it wanting to become rich. Lots of people want to have a middle-class standard of living while doing something they enjoy.

We had a fairly brief period where a lot of liberal arts majors made a lot of money, because American corporations began outsourcing and suddenly were a lot more profitable. Now those jobs are gone, and they aren't coming back because they were an artificial blip in the first place. Many of those jobs required a college degree, but any four year degree would do; thus they were disproportionately filled by liberal arts majors. Now those jobs are gone, and while a BA in English Lit or Philosophy is fine for your Minority Outreach Director or your Head of Community Affairs or your Human Resources hire, you aren't going to consider these people to fill a position in your engineering or accounting departments. Combine that with Doppel's earlier points - harder to get a job, lower wages (basic supply and demand), fewer benefits, harder working requirements, higher cost of living - and you should be able to see that while the economy sucks for everyone, it sucks markedly more for the liberal arts graduate. And this is doubly true for the young, who typically have a LOT of debt and very few of their wish list items.

 

[werepossum]

I know several English majors. My cousin started out as an editorial assistant for a publishing company which led to becoming a senior technical editor at one of the largest software companies in the US making six figures. But then decided to go back to school and is now a social worker, something she loves and making 1/4 of what she used to make.

A friend from high school got a degree in English and his first job was as a concierge for a large apartment complex. He also interned for free at a advertising company which led to a copywriter position at a large newspaper. He's now a senior copywriter for a large digital marketing firm and just bought a house on the beach for his family.

Another ended-up in software sales and makes a good living.

I'm pretty confident that all of them make or made more money than the OP.

English majors are perhaps a bad example, because communications skills are very important in most white collar jobs. The psychology or philosophy or art or history majors are probably considerably worse off, and probably women's or minority studies worst of all.

 

[Infohawk]

We had a fairly brief period where a lot of liberal arts majors made a lot of money, because American corporations began outsourcing and suddenly were a lot more profitable. Now those jobs are gone, and they aren't coming back because they were an artificial blip in the first place. Many of those jobs required a college degree, but any four year degree would do; thus they were disproportionately filled by liberal arts majors. Now those jobs are gone, and while a BA in English Lit or Philosophy is fine for your Minority Outreach Director or your Head of Community Affairs or your Human Resources hire, you aren't going to consider these people to fill a position in your engineering or accounting departments. Combine that with Doppel's earlier points - harder to get a job, lower wages (basic supply and demand), fewer benefits, harder working requirements, higher cost of living - and you should be able to see that while the economy sucks for everyone, it sucks markedly more for the liberal arts graduate. And this is doubly true for the young, who typically have a LOT of debt and very few of their wish list items.

I'm not arguing that it's just as easy for people with BA to get a job as people with BS degrees but Doppel and especially OP are going overboard, especially when you take into account people's actual interests.

I'm fully aware of the larger economic issues. And in light of those issues, it's absurd to make a big deal about choice of major. It's like arguing that it's better to have a bigger bucket when you have a gaping hole in your hull after being hit by an iceberg. The iceberg was the problem, the choice of bucket isn't going to save anything. Mainly due to unrestrained free trade, we're seeing various levels of jobs get progressively outsourced. People are dreaming if they don't think engineering or even management positions aren't next the way things are going.

English majors are perhaps a bad example, because communications skills are very important in most white collar jobs. The psychology or philosophy or art or history majors are probably considerably worse off, and probably women's or minority studies worst of all.

All BA majors at reputable institutions teach communications (mainly writing) skills. That along with critical thinking is basically the entire point of a liberal arts degree. Sometimes I wonder if people think that "liberal arts" literally means arts that are liberal...

 

[werepossum]

I'm not arguing that it's just as easy for people with BA to get a job as people with BS degrees but Doppel and especially OP are going overboard, especially when you take into account people's actual interests.

I'm fully aware of the larger economic issues. And in light of those issues, it's absurd to make a big deal about choice of major. It's like arguing that it's better to have a bigger bucket when you have a gaping hole in your hull after being hit by an iceberg. The iceberg was the problem, the choice of bucket isn't going to save anything. Mainly due to unrestrained free trade, we're seeing various levels of jobs get progressively outsourced. People are dreaming if they don't think engineering or even management positions aren't next the way things are going.

All BA majors at reputable institutions teach communications (mainly writing) skills. That along with critical thinking is basically the entire point of a liberal arts degree. Sometimes I wonder if people think that "liberal arts" literally means arts that are liberal...

Big difference between teaching and emphasizing. My course of engineering studies taught me statistics; it did not teach me statistics as a statistician would learn it. And it's not at all absurd to make a big deal about choice of major in a discussion about (to a large degree) unemployment if some majors have a significantly higher rate of unemployment, especially right out of school. What was that part about critical thinking again . . .

 

[Infohawk]

Big difference between teaching and emphasizing. My course of engineering studies taught me statistics; it did not teach me statistics as a statistician would learn it. And it's not at all absurd to make a big deal about choice of major in a discussion about (to a large degree) unemployment if some majors have a significantly higher rate of unemployment, especially right out of school. What was that part about critical thinking again . . .

What do you think Philosophy majors do? They read, analyze and write. Just like English majors. So do Political Science and Sociology majors. The only difference is the subject matter.

It's absurd to say that certain majors are "useless." It's absurd to act like most of the people serving you at Starbucks are people with English degrees. Now if you want to say that STEM majors have an easier time finding a job, then fine, but ideally you'd quantify the difference before making sweeping statements. Not only that but it really ignores the other variables like whether or not you have a graduate degree and what quality of school you went to.

 

[TalonStrike]

I know several English majors. My cousin started out as an editorial assistant for a publishing company which led to becoming a senior technical editor at one of the largest software companies in the US making six figures. But then decided to go back to school and is now a social worker, something she loves and making 1/4 of what she used to make.

A friend from high school got a degree in English and his first job was as a concierge for a large apartment complex. He also interned for free at a advertising company which led to a copywriter position at a large newspaper. He's now a senior copywriter for a large digital marketing firm and just bought a house on the beach for his family.

Another ended-up in software sales and makes a good living.

I'm pretty confident that all of them make or made more money than the OP.

What you are saying is the exception, not the norm. Most English majors won't be making six figures. Also, I like how you emphasized how they got successful jobs with software companies. Those are the good companies. Although it makes a lot more sense to major in software-related majors in order to get involved with companies like that, sure there may be a few random people who got lucky and ended up working for these companies by originally pursuing other majors. It really sounds like the examples you mentioned were random circumstances of luck, rather than viable career paths that others should use to plan out their lives.

 

[werepossum]

What do you think Philosophy majors do? They read, analyze and write. Just like English majors. So do Political Science and Sociology majors. The only difference is the subject matter.

It's absurd to say that certain majors are "useless." It's absurd to act like most of the people serving you at Starbucks are people with English degrees. Now if you want to say that STEM majors have an easier time finding a job, then fine, but ideally you'd quantify the difference before making sweeping statements. Not only that but it really ignores the other variables like whether or not you have a graduate degree and what quality of school you went to.

I wouldn't say any majors are useless, or even necessarily worth more than another. I don't think anyone is saying that. I WILL say that certain majors make it materially harder to find a job, especially without an advanced degree - which makes it more likely that the barista is a non-STEM graduate than a STEM graduate if certainly not more likely than a non-graduate - and/or make one's pay on average significantly less. If those with non-STEM majors accept that limitation, I'm fine with their degree choices. In fact, I'm fine with their career choices if they want to rail and bitch and whine. As long as I'm not being asked to subsidize philosophy camps or poem repairs shops or sensitivity counseling, I'm a happy camper. I do think though that it's only smart to consider job prospects before one runs up a lot of debt getting an education that may mean little to employers. One should have a decent idea before choosing a major of what is the likely pay, how easily one can find a job, what are the prospects for that career forty years down the road, and where one must likely go to find a job. Far too many people in my opinion get an education in whatever interests them and then rail at the world because their education does not provide the lifestyle choices they desire. Sacrifices should be made out of principle, not out of ignorance, and nobody owes you a good living.

 

[TalonStrike]

I wouldn't say any majors are useless, or even necessarily worth more than another. I don't think anyone is saying that. I WILL say that certain majors make it materially harder to find a job, especially without an advanced degree - which makes it more likely that the barista is a non-STEM graduate than a STEM graduate if certainly not more likely than a non-graduate - and/or make one's pay on average significantly less. If those with non-STEM majors accept that limitation, I'm fine with their degree choices. In fact, I'm fine with their career choices if they want to rail and bitch and whine. As long as I'm not being asked to subsidize philosophy camps or poem repairs shops or sensitivity counseling, I'm a happy camper. I do think though that it's only smart to consider job prospects before one runs up a lot of debt getting an education that may mean little to employers. One should have a decent idea before choosing a major of what is the likely pay, how easily one can find a job, what are the prospects for that career forty years down the road, and where one must likely go to find a job. Far too many people in my opinion get an education in whatever interests them and then rail at the world because their education does not provide the lifestyle choices they desire. Sacrifices should be made out of principle, not out of ignorance, and nobody owes you a good living.

I completely agree with everything you said.