Why are People Constantly Complaining about the Economy?

[werepossum]

I completely agree with everything you said.

Then I know I'm reasonably on plumb.

 

[PrinceofWands]

I know what you mean.

Annoys me how the liberal arts people in here keep acting like everything is so ambiguous when it is not at all. If you have to ask whether or not your degree is useless, then it probably is.

As a matter of fact it completely is, it's just that you're such an ignorant, worthless son-of-a-prick that you can't see it.

 

[Infohawk]

I wouldn't say any majors are useless, or even necessarily worth more than another. I don't think anyone is saying that.

Actually the OP is saying exactly that. To the extent he says he agrees with what you said he's contradicting himself.

Far too many people in my opinion get an education in whatever interests them and then rail at the world because their education does not provide the lifestyle choices they desire.

Do you have any specific examples? I think you're just hearing people complain about the economy generally. There is no question that across the board unemployment is higher and that wages are down on average. I don't think it's unreasonable for a liberal arts graduate, or medical doctor (and yes I've heard doctors complain about this) to ask why they have a lower standard of living than someone with an identical education had in previous generations. Whining about certain people's choice of major (again, among the 33% that even have a college degree to begin with) is silly.

 

[Paul98]

What happens when a huge number of people move from the low wage majors to the high wage majors?

The problem is that with how things currently work the large companies and even mid sized end up making the rules. We have all these lawmakers who just keep on piling up the laws and the little guys and start ups keep on getting screwed unless they are way ahead of the curve. Then after getting into place they start buying influence themselves.

We need to start to have people who clean up the laws that are on the books, make them so that they make sense for the good of the society. It's sick and we will continue to have concentration on the top of the top income earners.

 

[Infohawk]

PhD in chemistry from UCLA, a top 20 institution, 2 year post doc at Columbia, a top 10 institution. Haven't gotten so much as a callback, let alone an interview, in the last month. I've applied to 20 odd jobs or so, all over the country, in various industries.

Offshoring has led to a glut of chemists on the market in the last 5 years or so. They're slowly starting to bring them back, so I hear, but a lot of other companies are still trying to outsource. Problem is, a lot of the outsourced countries just can't innovate.

Are you looking in academia too? Or does that seem even more difficult?

 

[Doppel]

I'm not arguing that it's just as easy for people with BA to get a job as people with BS degrees but Doppel and especially OP are going overboard, especially when you take into account people's actual interests.

That's really all I'm arguing. Youth now even compared to a decade ago are facing substantial employment challenges. I just think it's a particularly bad time to spend four years getting a dubious degree and entering a very possibly bad job market with likely more debt than they'd have had in the past, because student loan debt keeps skyrocketing.

Decades ago a high school diploma got you a decent middle-class job. Then you wanted to have a degree, but any degree was ok, now you don't want just any degree, you want a decent one.

but ideally you'd quantify the difference before making sweeping statements.

If i were trying to get published I'd quantify it. For the internet I enjoy sweeping generalizations, but within those generalizations is some truth.

When i speak of toilet paper degrees I mean when compared to others. I would still rather have a major in philosophy than no degree at all, but I'd rather have one in business.

Do you have any specific examples?

It's actually worse. I knew many, many people at college getting degrees in psychology/ologies and believe me, they weren't doing it because it was interesting. Maybe that's what they sold to their parents. They did it because it was damned easy. Maybe first semester calculus tore them a new one and then suddenly they didn't want a bachelor of science after all, but how convenient that all of a sudden they want to read about Freud. Also seemed to me that their classes started later in the day

 

[werepossum]

Actually the OP is saying exactly that. To the extent he says he agrees with what you said he's contradicting himself.


Do you have any specific examples? I think you're just hearing people complain about the economy generally. There is no question that across the board unemployment is higher and that wages are down on average. I don't think it's unreasonable for a liberal arts graduate, or medical doctor (and yes I've heard doctors complain about this) to ask why they have a lower standard of living than someone with an identical education had in previous generations. Whining about certain people's choice of major (again, among the 33% that even have a college degree to begin with) is silly.

You may consider this semantics, but there's a big difference between "useless" and "worthless". "Worthless" implies something has no inherent value. "Useless" implies something has no suitable use. Talonstrike specifically said "useless" majors, in which he is correct as a generality. Many graduates in soft disciplines now find their degrees are useless because they cannot use them to find a job - generally considered the prime reason to get an education. Those degrees are, at the moment, useless. They are not worthless because they still represent learning, commitment, dedication. They have (hopefully) enriched the lives of those who got them. But they cannot be put to use. Hence, they are useless, and their worth is (at the moment) only non-financial. That's not the result all non-STEM majors have found, of course, and some STEM graduates likewise find their degree is not doing what it should, or rather, what they thought it would. But clearly an engineering B.S. is more useful than a liberal arts B.A. from the same school at this point in time. I'd argue that it's also worth more, because the primary reason to get a degree is to get a good job. But an education's worth is a much more difficult thing on which to agree than is an education's usefulness, the former being at least partly intangible and the latter being much more cut and dried.

For your second paragraph, I'm all for people examining why they are not experiencing the lifestyle they anticipated. Outsourcing indirectly threatens us all. Right now the USA is the world's largest and most profitable market, so foreign corporations want to manufacture things here and have things designed here. But we're currently supporting that on credit, and already things are falling apart. GM sells more vehicles in China than in the USA, as does Volkswagen. As China becomes more of a consumer, more will be designed for the Chinese market, with the USA forced to adapt to Chinese sensibilities. As the market inevitably shifts away from the USA, jobs like manufacturing, management, accounting, etc. have to follow, if only from foreign corporations taking over American corporations and/or their markets. However, that doesn't change the balance of usefulness now, and if in the future we have fewer STEM jobs, we'll have less wealth and can support even fewer non-STEM jobs as well.

EDIT: I should add that I support people going after their interests, but I think they should also plan how that degree will make them a living. If their burning interest is in 17th century French poetry, they'd better either have a double major or a really good plan, including moving as needed to find that all-important entry level job. Most of the time I think they'd be better off with a minor in 17th century French poetry - an avocation rather than a vocation. People pay for what's useful to them, not what's interesting to you. If I had my druthers I'd probably be a writer or a highland stream biologist rather than an engineer, but I'd rather do something I enjoy that is profitable and employable than try to force the world to accommodate my desires.

 

[werepossum]

PhD in chemistry from UCLA, a top 20 institution, 2 year post doc at Columbia, a top 10 institution. Haven't gotten so much as a callback, let alone an interview, in the last month. I've applied to 20 odd jobs or so, all over the country, in various industries.

Offshoring has led to a glut of chemists on the market in the last 5 years or so. They're slowly starting to bring them back, so I hear, but a lot of other companies are still trying to outsource. Problem is, a lot of the outsourced countries just can't innovate.

Man, that's rough. Hope things pick up. I've seen SO many people with degrees in chemistry go back to school to degree in chemical engineering just to find a job.

 

[Infohawk]

You may consider this semantics, but there's a big difference between "useless" and "worthless". "Worthless" implies something has no inherent value. "Useless" implies something has no suitable use. Talonstrike specifically said "useless" majors, in which he is correct as a generality. Many graduates in soft disciplines now find their degrees are useless because they cannot use them to find a job - generally considered the prime reason to get an education. Those degrees are, at the moment, useless. They are not worthless because they still represent learning, commitment, dedication. They have (hopefully) enriched the lives of those who got them. But they cannot be put to use. Hence, they are useless, and their worth is (at the moment) only non-financial. That's not the result all non-STEM majors have found, of course, and some STEM graduates likewise find their degree is not doing what it should, or rather, what they thought it would. But clearly an engineering B.S. is more useful than a liberal arts B.A. from the same school at this point in time. I'd argue that it's also worth more, because the primary reason to get a degree is to get a good job. But an education's worth is a much more difficult thing on which to agree than is an education's usefulness, the former being at least partly intangible and the latter being much more cut and dried.

You're going overboard again. If I go with your definition of useless, there is actually a demand for liberal arts majors. It's not as big as a demand as nursing or computer science, but there's still a demand. Yes, there are jobs that would want someone who has a degree in design or art. "Useless", even as you define it, is an exaggeration.

 

[werepossum]

You're going overboard again. If I go with your definition of useless, there is actually a demand for liberal arts majors. It's not as big as a demand as nursing or computer science, but there's still a demand. Yes, there are jobs that would want someone who has a degree in design or art. "Useless", even as you define it, is an exaggeration.

Yes, hopefully it's only a minority of non-STEM graduates finding their degrees useless, and hopefully that percentage will decline. But then, very little in the world is absolute, and if we are to speak only about absolutes then it will be a very quiet world.

 

[rchiu]

That's really all I'm arguing. Youth now even compared to a decade ago are facing substantial employment challenges. I just think it's a particularly bad time to spend four years getting a dubious degree and entering a very possibly bad job market with likely more debt than they'd have had in the past, because student loan debt keeps skyrocketing.

Decades ago a high school diploma got you a decent middle-class job. Then you wanted to have a degree, but any degree was ok, now you don't want just any degree, you want a decent one.If i were trying to get published I'd quantify it. For the internet I enjoy sweeping generalizations, but within those generalizations is some truth.

When i speak of toilet paper degrees I mean when compared to others. I would still rather have a major in philosophy than no degree at all, but I'd rather have one in business.It's actually worse. I knew many, many people at college getting degrees in psychology/ologies and believe me, they weren't doing it because it was interesting. Maybe that's what they sold to their parents. They did it because it was damned easy. Maybe first semester calculus tore them a new one and then suddenly they didn't want a bachelor of science after all, but how convenient that all of a sudden they want to read about Freud. Also seemed to me that their classes started later in the day

Yeah well, people need to understand time has changed and this is not decades ago. US has shifted from labor intensive industries to service oriented industries, and in order to get a good job, you need to have skills, education and experiences businesses want. Just putting in a day of physical labor that doesn't require any degree/marketable degree, is no longer enough if you want above average pay.

And yeah I agree with you. Alot of people get into certain major not because they were interested, but because they party too hard. Those people who are really interested in their major and does really well should be able to find some good job and make good bucks anyway. J. K. Rowling certainly makes more money than thousands of engineers combined. But the sad fact is there seems to be more people in liberal arts department drifting through life, don't know what they want, don't know what the society expects, and just become bitter and complain all the time.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Did I miss something, or is there a massive pile of conjecture on this whole "liberal arts majors complaining" thing?

Of course, TalonStrike started this whole thing with some day dreaming idea pulled out of a porta-toilet.

Bah, who cares what the data shows, its how I feel thats important!

 

[Dr. Zaus]

^100% wrong^

But the sad fact is there seems to be more people in liberal arts department drifting through life, don't know what they want, don't know what the society expects, and just become bitter and complain all the time.

Yes, this is what the data show.

 

[Veliko]

Why do so many people seem to think that the sole purpose of an education is to get a job?

It's completely absurd.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Are you looking in academia too? Or does that seem even more difficult?

I'm not looking in academia, but those are traditionally harder to get.

 

[cybrsage]

Decades ago a high school diploma got you a decent middle-class job. Then you wanted to have a degree, but any degree was ok, now you don't want just any degree, you want a decent one.If i were trying to get published I'd quantify it.

This is so true. Unless you were in a specialized field, most employers accepted any college degree as being good enough. When I got my job in robotics, they wanted a degree - and readily accepted my nuclear engineering degree as good enough for robotics.

 

[Jhhnn]

So what the thread tells us, despite all the pontificating, is that students and degrees have changed very little, if at all, while job opportunities have narrowed & diminished.

So much for trickledown economics.

 

[classy]

PhD in chemistry from UCLA, a top 20 institution, 2 year post doc at Columbia, a top 10 institution. Haven't gotten so much as a callback, let alone an interview, in the last month. I've applied to 20 odd jobs or so, all over the country, in various industries.

Offshoring has led to a glut of chemists on the market in the last 5 years or so. They're slowly starting to bring them back, so I hear, but a lot of other companies are still trying to outsource. Problem is, a lot of the outsourced countries just can't innovate.

I heard a lot of high end educated people like yourself say this. Its kinda tough, you ever thought of living in another country? Just curious if you ever thought that would be feasible maybe. I do think that for some people that might have to become an option.

 

[mikeymikec]

UK person here.

I don't think this is a perfect indicator of the state of the economy, but it's a fairly good one. In say 2007-2008, I don't remember any/many unused shop buildings. Now in every town and village there's more than I'd expect for just 'average' turnover (businesses retiring or going bust for one reason or another). The UK is heavily reliant on retail/service industries, so it's a pretty good indicator for our country.

 

[jstern01]

Not sure what your game is on this one...it should be clear enough I mean real as in lots, not real as in does it exist or does it not. You can make "real money" at McDonalds, but CEOs are making real money.

Enough money is subjective to some extent, and to others not. I.e. if you have to pay back an insane amount of money and your income is that of a new teacher it probably won't seem like enough.

Not only can English majors become teachers they can also become a CEO or an entrepreneur, though one of the courses I took as part of my science degree was statistics and it told me that just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. And this is precisely borne out by my link. Science dominates; arts are dominated.

My main gist is we need to stop telling high school grads that any degree is good enough. If they want to get an easy degree (because arts degrees are much easier to get than science) then they should know they're more likely to have a lower income later on and throughout their career and try to gain employment among a more competitive field because their skill set just isn't valued as much.

"The liberal arts always situate graduates on the road for success. More Fortune 500 CEOs have had liberal arts B.A.s than professional degrees. The same is true of doctors and lawyers. And we know the road to research science most often comes through a liberal arts experience." "Liberal Arts II: The Economy Requires Them"Inside Higher Ed, 10/1/10

 

[Born2bwire]

Would you like some cheese with that whine? It's not my fault you didn't major in something useful and weren't able to get a good job.

Do you even have a job? Hell, have you even graduated? You haven't a clue on what it's like for the job market at the moment. Oh wait, are you just confused because you ended up moving to another country due to how bad the job market is in the US?

I'm seriously considering moving to a different country if the U.S. economy doesn't improve at all by the time I graduate

 

[rudder]

useless majors = majors that do not correlate to meaningful careers.

True in many cases... but there are quite a few people running around with useful degrees. They started working for these degrees because at the time they were fed some bullshit about on type of shortage or another. Take Nursing for example. A nursing degree seems useful. But given he fact that other nurses are putting off retirement, foreign nurses working cheaper, a massive increase of nursing graduates due to exploding school growth in this field, etc. Would you consider a nursing degree useful or useless?

So many times it is cyclical. The older nurses will eventually have to retire, some growth in needed numbers, doctor shortage may lead to more work for nurses. It is just that maybe in this point in time it may be hard for an RN to get a job.

But I do agree... people getting degrees in a large number of useless fields or subjects will have a hard time simply because there is no demand. These people then get pissed and demand that their student loan debt be expunged.

 

[rudder]

So what the thread tells us, despite all the pontificating, is that students and degrees have changed very little, if at all, while job opportunities have narrowed & diminished.

So much for trickledown economics.

No the numbers have changed. Before this big "get a degree and succeed" marketing campaign (fueled by esy to come by student loans, tax subsidies, etc) more people considered careers right out of high school.

There are manufacturing jobs in this country. And some industries are having trouble finding qualified recruits. Someone with $100,000 of student loan debt and a brand spanking new degree in Ancient Crimean dance theory would be loathe to take.

Job opportunities have shifted. You can't go to MCSE boot camp and expect a $75,000 job after taking a few test anymore.

 

[Jhhnn]

No the numbers have changed. Before this big "get a degree and succeed" marketing campaign (fueled by esy to come by student loans, tax subsidies, etc) more people considered careers right out of high school.

There are manufacturing jobs in this country. And some industries are having trouble finding qualified recruits. Someone with $100,000 of student loan debt and a brand spanking new degree in Ancient Crimean dance theory would be loathe to take.

Job opportunities have shifted. You can't go to MCSE boot camp and expect a $75,000 job after taking a few test anymore.

Heh. Fewer people got jobs straight out of high school in large part because there were fewer opportunities for them at that level of education, and now they're finding out that more education doesn't necessarily increase their opportunities at all. That's a systemic problem, not the fault of the people themselves as you'd like to paint it.

Of course some industries are having trouble finding qualified recruits- that's because they don't train anybody from square one, but rather want people already trained in specialized fields- you know, 5 years' experience, blah, blah, blah. Tech fields in particular have been exploiting the decrease in manufacturing to hire more experienced older pre-trained workers, but those workers are now retiring... leaving behind a skills gap that employers have inflicted on themselves.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Why do so many people seem to think that the sole purpose of an education is to get a job?

It's completely absurd.

THIS * eleventy-billion.