Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: Phokus

Rick Warren goes on national TV and lies through his teeth; via Americablog, here's Warren, speaking to Larry King:

"I was asked a question that made it sound like I equated gay marriage with pedophilia or incest, which I absolutely do not believe."

Oh, okay. He was misunderstood ... it just sounded like he equated it with pedophilia and incest:

"Steven Waldman: One controversial moment for you in the last election was your support for Proposition 8 in California. [...]

Rick Warren: Not a problem to me. But the issue to me is, I?m not opposed to that as much as I?m opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I?m opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I?m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I?m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.

Steven Waldman: Do you think, though, that they are equivalent to having gays getting married?

Rick Warren: Oh I do."

Don't you hate it when people try to put words in your mouth?

Warren also claimed that:

"I never once went to a meeting, I never once issued a statement, I never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop 8 was going.

The week before the vote, somebody in my church said, 'Pastor Rick, what do you think about this?' And I sent a note to my own members that I actually believe that marriage is really should be defined, that definition should be say between a man and a woman, and then all of a sudden out of it they made me something that I really wasn't."

Apparently some people "equated" this public service announcement with a statement and an endorsement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...eature=player_embedded

I'm 100% positive that conservative evangelicals don't read the bible... it's not like the 10 commandments say you shouldn't lie or anything.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo...ms-Hes-Not-A-Homophobe

keep grasping. Your bigotry needs an outlet.

Are you serious - grasping at what?

Yes, let's just ignore the fact Phokus attempts to paint an entire group based on the actions of just one person. Hmmm, using that (lack of) logic, all Democrats are convicted felons guilty of sexual assault and abuse of a minor, just because one (Mel Reynolds of Illinois) was found guilty of those actions! Sure, that makes loads of sense. :roll:

Phokus, the village idiot, trolling again.

I was referring to Warren being a lying SOB rather than the generalization. Sorry.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
"Lie" is such a strong word. I prefer something like, "The Devil led them astray" and caused a temporary blackout on the truth.

This could be easily remedied with my custom No Evil Oil.

We pray over my NEO for 17 days. It's guaranteed. Make checks payable to me.

For those on a more direct path to damnation we offer women's panties that have been soiled for 17 days.

Must see pics of said woman before purchase! :laugh:

 

[Illusio]

Got ninja'd. removed post with redundant comment.

 

[Mr. Lennon]

Originally posted by: Dark Jedi

Originally posted by: Zeppelin2282

Originally posted by: Dark Jedi

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Dark Jedi

Originally posted by: OCguy
Plan to help the economy:

Take away the tax-exempt status off all these meth-loving in the closet mega-church ministers and their organizations.

:roll:
So you'd prefer if churches got government funding like lots of other organizations out there? Great plan there...I'll keep my government and religion separate thank you very much.

Really?


Heres a hint: The government and religion are very intertwined. I just want a piece of all of the income these up and coming mega-churches are getting.

Believing in a magic man in the sky should not preclude you from paying your "fair share", as the liberals would put it.

The government might be letting churches use funds for...CHARITY work!!!! OMG!! run for the hills. </sarcasm>

There are safeguards to FBI such as (Stolen from wikipedia) :
* They may not use direct government funds to support inherently religious activities such as prayer, worship, religious instruction, or proselytization.
* Any inherently religious activities that the organizations may offer must be offered separately in time or location from services that receive federal assistance.
* FBOs cannot discriminate on the basis of religion when providing services (GAO 2006:13[3]).

Charity work.... that's what they must call it these days when they use their untaxed income to buy multiple homes and cars. I have seen many pastors guilty of this.

Back to the OP...

I went with my cousin to the youth night at Rick Warrens church (Saddleback). Not only did the pastor admit to having a problem with masturbation in his marriage (due to never having sex until he was 28 obviously), he also said this:

"If you are struggling with urges of attraction to the same sex, please let us help you! This problem is curable!"

I promptly left in disgust.

I just love it when people generalize an entire group based off what a few people do. You've seen a few pastors with multiple homes and thus everyone one in the faith are guilty? I've read a few articles of teachers having sex with their students, so I suppose all teachers are evil like that? Why don't you treat individuals as just that, individuals? How's the view on that high horse of yours?

Its not just "a few" pastors. The majority of pastors in Orange County are guilty of this. Even my bible thumping cousin who spends the majority of his week in church agrees with me. I'm not saying that there aren't any legit church's out there, I'm sure there is. They just seem to be in the minority.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Phokus
I just find it funny that one of the most important leaders in the evangelical movement is allowed to get away with lying and no other conservative leader will call him out on his sin.

No "other" conservative leader? Do you mean to imply that these evangelical priests are somehow leaders of secular conservatism as well?

Rick Warren and his ilk sure aren't my leaders. In fact, I find most of the prominent evangelical leaders to be rather ridiculous caricatures of religiosity. Now, I don't extend that to all evangelicals, who are not a homogeneous group; I am restricting my comment to the evangelical priests who are out there courting media attention rather than doing their jobs.

ZV

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Phokus
I just find it funny that one of the most important leaders in the evangelical movement is allowed to get away with lying and no other conservative leader will call him out on his sin.

Ok, my serious answer.

If you reduce this discussion down to a two-dimensional analysis of his statements, yes, you are correct, he lied.

If you take his statements through his eyes, allow for the theological nuances that he sees in the topic, you come out with something like this.
- Evangelicals subscribe to the idea that sin is sin, no matter what sin it is, and there isn't really a hierarchy of "lesser" or "greater" sins.
- The Bible defines pedophilia, incest and homosexuality all as sins (fact) without really commenting on the social or personal impact of any of them.
- Rick Warren recognizes that therefore homosexuality, from a sin/not-sin perspective as defined by a literal reading of Scripture, is equal to pedophilia and incest.

Now take a deep breath and keep thinking.
- It is clear that there is a significant difference in the social impact of pedophilia, incest and homosexuality when they are practiced
- Rick Warren has not denied this
- Rick Warren has not claimed that pedophilia, incest and homosexuality are equally harmful to individuals or society.

Keep thinking just a little longer.
- Rick Warren equates pedophilia and incest with homosexuality as "sins" from the standpoint of his personal moral code; this does not really matter to anybody who does not subscribe to his personal moral code
- The fact that Rick Warren considers all of the above to be equally morally wrong does not necessarily mean that he considers all to be equally personally or societally harmful; this is what should matter to people who do not share his personal moral code

So you are outraged because you think that A = B, when A and B are in fact completely different discussions.

Anybody can troll if they reduce down the facts to the point where they no longer resemble the reality.

[edit] I should add, I'm very much not a fan of Warren and can't stand his brand of Christianity in the name of book marketing.

 

[ericlp]

Uh, well, considering the whole bible thing was a lie.... What's the difference?

 

[sactoking]

Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You win the thread!!

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Phokus
I just find it funny that one of the most important leaders in the evangelical movement is allowed to get away with lying and no other conservative leader will call him out on his sin.

Ok, my serious answer.

If you reduce this discussion down to a two-dimensional analysis of his statements, yes, you are correct, he lied.

If you take his statements through his eyes, allow for the theological nuances that he sees in the topic, you come out with something like this.
- Evangelicals subscribe to the idea that sin is sin, no matter what sin it is, and there isn't really a hierarchy of "lesser" or "greater" sins.
- The Bible defines pedophilia, incest and homosexuality all as sins (fact) without really commenting on the social or personal impact of any of them.
- Rick Warren recognizes that therefore homosexuality, from a sin/not-sin perspective as defined by a literal reading of Scripture, is equal to pedophilia and incest.

Now take a deep breath and keep thinking.
- It is clear that there is a significant difference in the social impact of pedophilia, incest and homosexuality when they are practiced
- Rick Warren has not denied this
- Rick Warren has not claimed that pedophilia, incest and homosexuality are equally harmful to individuals or society.

Keep thinking just a little longer.
- Rick Warren equates pedophilia and incest with homosexuality as "sins" from the standpoint of his personal moral code; this does not really matter to anybody who does not subscribe to his personal moral code
- The fact that Rick Warren considers all of the above to be equally morally wrong does not necessarily mean that he considers all to be equally personally or societally harmful; this is what should matter to people who do not share his personal moral code

So you are outraged because you think that A = B, when A and B are in fact completely different discussions.

Anybody can troll if they reduce down the facts to the point where they no longer resemble the reality.

[edit] I should add, I'm very much not a fan of Warren and can't stand his brand of Christianity in the name of book marketing.

So much energy wasted on trying to dismiss a clear Lie. Dudes a Liar, deal with it.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: sactoking

Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You win the thread!!

That's a big Fail. People are not bound by the Constitution, they can Judge the guy anyway they want. Unless someone suggested the Government should intervene.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: sactoking

Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You win the thread!!

That's a big Fail. People are not bound by the Constitution, they can Judge the guy anyway they want. Unless someone suggested the Government should intervene.

You fail at reading. The key word was "allowed".

 

[evident]

conservative evangelical christians piss me the hell off :|

 

[Atreus21]

Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone.

Phokus: Right. So we CAST that mutha!

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Phokus
I just find it funny that one of the most important leaders in the evangelical movement is allowed to get away with lying and no other conservative leader will call him out on his sin.

Ok, my serious answer.

If you reduce this discussion down to a two-dimensional analysis of his statements, yes, you are correct, he lied.

If you take his statements through his eyes, allow for the theological nuances that he sees in the topic, you come out with something like this.
- Evangelicals subscribe to the idea that sin is sin, no matter what sin it is, and there isn't really a hierarchy of "lesser" or "greater" sins.
- The Bible defines pedophilia, incest and homosexuality all as sins (fact) without really commenting on the social or personal impact of any of them.
- Rick Warren recognizes that therefore homosexuality, from a sin/not-sin perspective as defined by a literal reading of Scripture, is equal to pedophilia and incest.

Now take a deep breath and keep thinking.
- It is clear that there is a significant difference in the social impact of pedophilia, incest and homosexuality when they are practiced
- Rick Warren has not denied this
- Rick Warren has not claimed that pedophilia, incest and homosexuality are equally harmful to individuals or society.

Keep thinking just a little longer.
- Rick Warren equates pedophilia and incest with homosexuality as "sins" from the standpoint of his personal moral code; this does not really matter to anybody who does not subscribe to his personal moral code
- The fact that Rick Warren considers all of the above to be equally morally wrong does not necessarily mean that he considers all to be equally personally or societally harmful; this is what should matter to people who do not share his personal moral code

So you are outraged because you think that A = B, when A and B are in fact completely different discussions.

Anybody can troll if they reduce down the facts to the point where they no longer resemble the reality.

[edit] I should add, I'm very much not a fan of Warren and can't stand his brand of Christianity in the name of book marketing.

So much energy wasted on trying to dismiss a clear Lie. Dudes a Liar, deal with it.

From a purely technical standpoint, I hate to admit it, but Warren wasn't "lying" based on a very strict definition of what he said. However, I find it very difficult to believe that Warren was intending such a strict definition when he made those statements and I think he's trying to weasel out of them now.

ZV

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: sactoking

Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You win the thread!!

That's a big Fail. People are not bound by the Constitution, they can Judge the guy anyway they want. Unless someone suggested the Government should intervene.

You fail at reading. The key word was "allowed".

what about it?

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: sactoking

Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You win the thread!!

That's a big Fail. People are not bound by the Constitution, they can Judge the guy anyway they want. Unless someone suggested the Government should intervene.

You fail at reading. The key word was "allowed".

what about it?

I'm sorry I was under the impression that Canadians spoke English.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: sactoking

Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You win the thread!!

That's a big Fail. People are not bound by the Constitution, they can Judge the guy anyway they want. Unless someone suggested the Government should intervene.

You fail at reading. The key word was "allowed".

what about it?

I'm sorry I was under the impression that Canadians spoke English.

We do, but you seem to have troubles with it. What does "allowed" have to do with the Constitution? I suspect your Parents didn't "Allow" certain things. Voters often don't "Allow" certain things/people from being approved. Sometimes people are not "allowed" to carry on certain things, by exposing what they are doing or have done.

In short, your bringing the Constitution into this had nothing to do with the Topic.

 

[Budmantom]

Why are liberal democrats allowed to cheat on taxes?

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: sactoking

Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You win the thread!!

That's a big Fail. People are not bound by the Constitution, they can Judge the guy anyway they want. Unless someone suggested the Government should intervene.

You fail at reading. The key word was "allowed".

what about it?

I'm sorry I was under the impression that Canadians spoke English.

We do, but you seem to have troubles with it. What does "allowed" have to do with the Constitution? I suspect your Parents didn't "Allow" certain things. Voters often don't "Allow" certain things/people from being approved. Sometimes people are not "allowed" to carry on certain things, by exposing what they are doing or have done.

In short, your bringing the Constitution into this had nothing to do with the Topic.

Who, exactly, is going to stop "conservatives" from lying?

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: ericlp
Uh, well, considering the whole bible thing was a lie.... What's the difference?

Huh?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: sactoking

Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You win the thread!!

That's a big Fail. People are not bound by the Constitution, they can Judge the guy anyway they want. Unless someone suggested the Government should intervene.

You fail at reading. The key word was "allowed".

what about it?

I'm sorry I was under the impression that Canadians spoke English.

We do, but you seem to have troubles with it. What does "allowed" have to do with the Constitution? I suspect your Parents didn't "Allow" certain things. Voters often don't "Allow" certain things/people from being approved. Sometimes people are not "allowed" to carry on certain things, by exposing what they are doing or have done.

In short, your bringing the Constitution into this had nothing to do with the Topic.

Who, exactly, is going to stop "conservatives" from lying?

Not Conservatives, apparently.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Not Conservatives, apparently.

Yea, we believe in free speech.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski
Not Conservatives, apparently.

Yea, we believe in free speech.

hmm, that's a pile of Fail. Essentially you're ok with being Lied to because of Free Speech.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski
Not Conservatives, apparently.

Yea, we believe in free speech.

hmm, that's a pile of Fail. Essentially you're ok with being Lied to because of Free Speech.

Worked for Bill Clinton.