Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Phokus
I just find it funny that one of the most important leaders in the evangelical movement is allowed to get away with lying and no other conservative leader will call him out on his sin.

Ok, my serious answer.

If you reduce this discussion down to a two-dimensional analysis of his statements, yes, you are correct, he lied.

If you take his statements through his eyes, allow for the theological nuances that he sees in the topic, you come out with something like this.
- Evangelicals subscribe to the idea that sin is sin, no matter what sin it is, and there isn't really a hierarchy of "lesser" or "greater" sins.
- The Bible defines pedophilia, incest and homosexuality all as sins (fact) without really commenting on the social or personal impact of any of them.
- Rick Warren recognizes that therefore homosexuality, from a sin/not-sin perspective as defined by a literal reading of Scripture, is equal to pedophilia and incest.

Now take a deep breath and keep thinking.
- It is clear that there is a significant difference in the social impact of pedophilia, incest and homosexuality when they are practiced
- Rick Warren has not denied this
- Rick Warren has not claimed that pedophilia, incest and homosexuality are equally harmful to individuals or society.

Keep thinking just a little longer.
- Rick Warren equates pedophilia and incest with homosexuality as "sins" from the standpoint of his personal moral code; this does not really matter to anybody who does not subscribe to his personal moral code
- The fact that Rick Warren considers all of the above to be equally morally wrong does not necessarily mean that he considers all to be equally personally or societally harmful; this is what should matter to people who do not share his personal moral code

So you are outraged because you think that A = B, when A and B are in fact completely different discussions.

Anybody can troll if they reduce down the facts to the point where they no longer resemble the reality.

[edit] I should add, I'm very much not a fan of Warren and can't stand his brand of Christianity in the name of book marketing.

So much energy wasted on trying to dismiss a clear Lie. Dudes a Liar, deal with it.

From a purely technical standpoint, I hate to admit it, but Warren wasn't "lying" based on a very strict definition of what he said. However, I find it very difficult to believe that Warren was intending such a strict definition when he made those statements and I think he's trying to weasel out of them now.

ZV

I think Warren was intending exactly that strict a definition. He stated his view that people taking those actions are equally sinners; he interpreted the reporters question to ask whether people taking those actions are equally harmful to society. That would technically mean, in his own mind, that he didn't lie.

Phokus could argue that he's inconsistent and illogical in how he views those two points in relation to each other, that a rational person would view them as one and the same; that would be a fair discussion. In this case though, he's yelling "LIAR" at somebody who probably very honestly does not consider himself to have lied, and by the letter of the law of his own understanding, has not. Argue that the understanding is wrong, but acknowledge that, if you accept Warren's premises, his conclusions are not at odds with each other.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: sandorski


We do, but you seem to have troubles with it. What does "allowed" have to do with the Constitution? I suspect your Parents didn't "Allow" certain things. Voters often don't "Allow" certain things/people from being approved. Sometimes people are not "allowed" to carry on certain things, by exposing what they are doing or have done.

In short, your bringing the Constitution into this had nothing to do with the Topic.

I brought up the Constitution. I brought it up because the topic specifically said 'allow'. The most relevant definition of allow in this context is "to permit something to happen or to exist". The topic was WHY do we [permit] conservative evangelicals to lie so much. The answer is we [permit] it because it is their RIGHT to lie. To not [permit] it, we would have to stop them by law, which is unconstitutional, or by force, which is just illegal.

Technically speaking, I don't believe the Constitution protects lies as free speech. Go ahead, accuse a prominent public figure of being a pedophile, even if you know it's not true. See if the 1st Amendment works as a defense in the subsequent libel/slander lawsuit.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Yes, let's just ignore the fact Phokus attempts to paint an entire group based on the actions of just one person. Hmmm, using that (lack of) logic, all Democrats are convicted felons guilty of sexual assault and abuse of a minor, just because one (Mel Reynolds of Illinois) was found guilty of those actions! Sure, that makes loads of sense. :roll:

Phokus, the village idiot, trolling again.

I deal with a lot of dimwits in both parties. The ultra-left-wingers are, as a rule of thumb, even less grounded in reality than the ultra-right-wingers. However, the ultra-left-wingers around here are generally happy to sit around and organize, while the ultra-left-wingers occaisonally scream really horrible things at one of the guys I play halo with on Wednesdays just because he's gay.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: sandorski


We do, but you seem to have troubles with it. What does "allowed" have to do with the Constitution? I suspect your Parents didn't "Allow" certain things. Voters often don't "Allow" certain things/people from being approved. Sometimes people are not "allowed" to carry on certain things, by exposing what they are doing or have done.

In short, your bringing the Constitution into this had nothing to do with the Topic.

I brought up the Constitution. I brought it up because the topic specifically said 'allow'. The most relevant definition of allow in this context is "to permit something to happen or to exist". The topic was WHY do we [permit] conservative evangelicals to lie so much. The answer is we [permit] it because it is their RIGHT to lie. To not [permit] it, we would have to stop them by law, which is unconstitutional, or by force, which is just illegal.

Technically speaking, I don't believe the Constitution protects lies as free speech. Go ahead, accuse a prominent public figure of being a pedophile, even if you know it's not true. See if the 1st Amendment works as a defense in the subsequent libel/slander lawsuit.

You're right, but what we're talking about here is more like telling your mom you did your homework, when you didn't, so she won't bug you about it.

I.E. It is protected speech.

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Phokus
Why are conservative evangelicals allowed to lie so much?

Bigger question: Why is Phokus allowed to post so much?

Don't believe everything the Daily Kos reports on.

You could say the exact same thing to about a half dozen regular right wing blog disciples here in P&N.

 

[soccerballtux]

LOL, OP linked to dailykos.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
"Lie" is such a strong word. I prefer something like, "The Devil led them astray" and caused a temporary blackout on the truth.

This could be easily remedied with my custom No Evil Oil.

We pray over my NEO for 17 days. It's guaranteed. Make checks payable to me.

For those on a more direct path to damnation we offer women's panties that have been soiled for 17 days.

Must see pics of said woman before purchase! :laugh:

RESIST THE TEMPTATION :evil:

(though they make an excellent complementary accessory to a tinfoil hat)

 

[spittledip]

I am not understanding where the lie is here.

1. The man says that he does not equate pedophilia or incest with gay marriage.
2. He does equate gay marriage with a man marrying a child and a brother and sister marrying.
3. He does support proposition 8.


Where is the lie? I see no conflict here unless I am missing something, which is possible.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: spittledip
I am not understanding where the lie is here.

1. The man says that he does not equate pedophilia or incest with gay marriage.
2. He does equate gay marriage with a man marrying a child and a brother and sister marrying.
3. He does support proposition 8.


Where is the lie? I see no conflict here unless I am missing something, which is possible.

You don't see a conflict with saying "I don't equte gay marriage with incest" and then saying "Gay marriage is like a brother and sister marrying"?

He lied about prop 8 because on Larry King he said he never once endorsed it, but there's video of him endorsing it.
http://pandagon.net/index.php/...g_live/#When:11:40:00Z

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If they do lie they are allowed to do so by those who follow them just like anybody else who has a following lies be they Religious, Atheist, Liberal or Conservative.

The difference is the massive hypocrisy in this case. Morality is the banner evangelicals supposedly rally behind. The only universal definition of morality is truthfulness, something these clowns fail at consistently.

 

[Budmantom]

lol


Biden

 

[BMW540I6speed]

The enemies of gay marriage come up with all sorts of reasons to oppose it: it damages families, it's bad for children, it deprives me of my liberty, etc. There is only one reason for the opposition from these so called Christians: "Gays are disgusting animals & perverts and God wants them killed." However, this view has limited public appeal. So we have all these obfuscations.

It's high time that we eliminated the free ride these unaccountable businesses have had for so long. Tax exemption for religions is the biggest undeserved corporate welfare giveaway of them all. The churches remain free to discriminate in non-state funded, non-state related activities. There is NO violation of freedom of religion in these cases, just the "freedom" to take taxpayer money while discriminating against those same taxpayers.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
The enemies of gay marriage come up with all sorts of reasons to oppose it: it damages families, it's bad for children, it deprives me of my liberty, etc. There is only one reason for the opposition from these so called Christians: "Gays are disgusting animals & perverts and God wants them killed." However, this view has limited public appeal. So we have all these obfuscations.

It's high time that we eliminated the free ride these unaccountable businesses have had for so long. Tax exemption for religions is the biggest undeserved corporate welfare giveaway of them all. The churches remain free to discriminate in non-state funded, non-state related activities. There is NO violation of freedom of religion in these cases, just the "freedom" to take taxpayer money while discriminating against those same taxpayers.

The majority of the American public.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
The enemies of gay marriage come up with all sorts of reasons to oppose it: it damages families, it's bad for children, it deprives me of my liberty, etc. There is only one reason for the opposition from these so called Christians: "Gays are disgusting animals & perverts and God wants them killed." However, this view has limited public appeal. So we have all these obfuscations.

It's high time that we eliminated the free ride these unaccountable businesses have had for so long. Tax exemption for religions is the biggest undeserved corporate welfare giveaway of them all. The churches remain free to discriminate in non-state funded, non-state related activities. There is NO violation of freedom of religion in these cases, just the "freedom" to take taxpayer money while discriminating against those same taxpayers.

The majority of the American public.

A fair point, but sometimes the American public is behind the curve and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming to the promised land.

http://media.gallup.com/POLL/Releases/pr070816i.gif

 

[Budmantom]

Speaking of lying:

The White House said that Obama didn't bow to the Saudi King, in related news the Obama administration maintains they are not socialist but said they had no time to comment because they had other businesses to take over.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: spittledip
I am not understanding where the lie is here.

1. The man says that he does not equate pedophilia or incest with gay marriage.
2. He does equate gay marriage with a man marrying a child and a brother and sister marrying.
3. He does support proposition 8.


Where is the lie? I see no conflict here unless I am missing something, which is possible.

You don't see a conflict with saying "I don't equte gay marriage with incest" and then saying "Gay marriage is like a brother and sister marrying"?

He lied about prop 8 because on Larry King he said he never once endorsed it, but there's video of him endorsing it.
http://pandagon.net/index.php/...g_live/#When:11:40:00Z

Oh ok, I missed the quote where he said "I never once supported prop 8" I see it now.

Not that it matters at this point, but he said that he equates gay marriage with a brother and sister marrying. He did not say he equates gay marriage with incest or pedophilia.

I guess he is just a coward and did not have the guts to stick to what he originally said when in front of Larry King.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Why is Biden allowed to lie so much?

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Why is Biden allowed to lie so much?

They don't expect the truth from him.

 

[JSFLY]

Why are conservative evangelicals such liars?

Because Christianity as a whole is one big lie. It's no different from the lies about aliens that scientology preachers teach their followers to gain wealth and control over them.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: spittledip
Not that it matters at this point, but he said that he equates gay marriage with a brother and sister marrying. He did not say he equates gay marriage with incest or pedophilia.

Not that it matters, but you're confusing me. How is equating gay marriage to sibling marriage not equating it with incest? Sex is implicit in a marriage contract. In fact, refusal to have sex is grounds for divorce.

Kinda like arguing that "pushed him off the cliff" isn't the same as saying "killed him" because there's a chance the fall won't kill the person.

 

[JD50]

Why does the left care so much about right wing commentators?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: JD50
Why does the left care so much about right wing commentators?

You gonna post that in every thread?

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50
Why does the left care so much about right wing commentators?

You gonna post that in every thread?

They worry about Rush, Hannity, ORielly and Beck yet these people have no control over their lives, they could care less what Obama, Pelossi, Reed, Dudd and Frank are doing.

Don't forget they also support free speech.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50
Why does the left care so much about right wing commentators?

You gonna post that in every thread?

They worry about Rush, Hannity, ORielly and Beck yet these people have no control over their lives, they could care less what Obama, Pelossi, Reed, Dudd and Frank are doing.

Don't forget they also support free speech.

I see you got your own 1 line/every Thread Post too. Congrats.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: JSFLY
Why are conservative evangelicals such liars?

Because Christianity as a whole is one big lie. It's no different from the lies about aliens that scientology preachers teach their followers to gain wealth and control over them.

How do you know they're lying? The only liars are those who claim to absolutely know one way or the other since they can't know. There is no reasonable repeatable proof. It's like someone claiming they've seen or been abducted by an alien. It seems unlikely, but one can't say with absolute certainty.

What they are guilty of is preying (praying?) on people's fear of the unknown for power and profit. For this deed, there should exist a 'hell' in which they will eternally suffer.