Why Apple [Inc.] is a Virus.

[SP33Demon]

The Fire's sold at a loss, iPads are sold at a HUGE profit. Would you rather sell 100,000 of something you make a killing on, or 1,000,000 of something you take a loss up front on? That you MIGHT end up making money from apps sold. Welp, Android owners really don't buy apps because they want everything for free. The iPad will do just fine this xmas, it won't sell anywhere near as many as the Fire, but the profit made plus how much the average owner will spend in the App Store. I'd hardly call that being "lit up" hell, I'd say it's even the exact opposite.

1,000,000 by far... you've never taken an undergrad marketing class? Flood the market at a loss and once you have the market share, then raise prices. How do you think Android took the market share from Apple iOS under their noses? Eventually numbers win out once consumers figure out they can get the same service at a cheaper price. Why do you think Apple is trying so hard to stop Android with patent litigation? Because they know they will never be able to outsell Android because their product, dollar for dollar spent, is inferior.

Of course there will always be technophobes who prefer Apple products, but the writing is on the wall if they let Android continue to flourish at a much cheaper price point entry level for consumers. Kindle Fire vs iPad is a prime example.

 

[Arkaign]

1,000,000 by far... you've never taken an undergrad marketing class? Flood the market at a loss and once you have the market share, then raise prices. How do you think Android took the market share from Apple iOS under their noses? Eventually numbers win out once consumers figure out they can get the same service at a cheaper price. Why do you think Apple is trying so hard to stop Android with patent litigation? Because they know they will never be able to outsell Android because their product, dollar for dollar spent, is inferior.

Of course there will always be technophobes who prefer Apple products, but the writing is on the wall if they let Android continue to flourish at a much cheaper price point entry level for consumers. Kindle Fire vs iPad is a prime example.

That's not even taking into account that the underlying technology is getting cheaper by leaps and bounds. Screens, capacitive touch, batteries, solid state storage, etc. And they're all assembled in China, where the entire process can be examined easily by competitors with some extra Yuan in their pockets.

 

[Patranus]

1,000,000 by far... you've never taken an undergrad marketing class? Flood the market at a loss and once you have the market share, then raise prices. How do you think Android took the market share from Apple iOS under their noses? Eventually numbers win out once consumers figure out they can get the same service at a cheaper price. Why do you think Apple is trying so hard to stop Android with patent litigation? Because they know they will never be able to outsell Android because their product, dollar for dollar spent, is inferior.

Of course there will always be technophobes who prefer Apple products, but the writing is on the wall if they let Android continue to flourish at a much cheaper price point entry level for consumers. Kindle Fire vs iPad is a prime example.

Here is the thing.

Google believes that ultimately they can make $10 per user per year of Android in terms of marketing, apps, ect.

So, Google has to have 30 devices activated for every ONE iPad per year (and this excludes iTunes/Apps/ect.)

 

[Patranus]

That's not even taking into account that the underlying technology is getting cheaper by leaps and bounds. Screens, capacitive touch, batteries, solid state storage, etc. And they're all assembled in China, where the entire process can be examined easily by competitors with some extra Yuan in their pockets.

Your (flawed) assumption is that hardware drives consumer choice.

 

[SP33Demon]

Here is the thing.

Google believes that ultimately they can make $10 per user per year of Android in terms of marketing, apps, ect.

So, Google has to have 30 devices activated for every ONE iPad per year (and this excludes iTunes/Apps/ect.)

While that may be true and Apple is definitely not dumb about ripping their users off (and staying profitable), eventually the huge market share will translate to more money in apps for Droid. Just look at the pace that Droid apps are being developed to iPhone, just a year ago Apple had a humongous advantage. Now that lead has evaporated and Droid can do the same sht except Siri. And Siri is about to be neutralized by Majel:

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-google-majel-line-rival-siri.html

(PhysOrg.com) -- Majel is Google’s voice controlled assistant in the wings and it is poised to compete against Apple’s iPhone 4S-based Siri. The new chatter surrounding the yet to be launched Majel can be translated down to Watch out Siri: Android’s coming at you. While smartphone users generally agree that no smartphone voice assistant has yet to rival Siri--a technology with roots in a DARPA project with a history of research before Apple bought it in 2010 -- Siri is in for more serious competition.

I can say I'd be scared shtless too if I were Apple, and I don't really blame them for trying to stop Droid from crushing them further (20% behind in market share, 50-30%). 1 out of every 2 smartphones/tablets activated is now a Droid... staggering from where they were a year ago (trailing Apple).

 

[Patranus]

While that may be true and Apple is definitely not dumb about ripping their users off (and staying profitable), eventually the huge market share will translate to more money in apps for Droid. Just look at the pace that Droid apps are being developed to iPhone, just a year ago Apple had a humongous advantage.

Well the Apple App Store is generating 4x as much revenue as the Google App store with googles "massive" marketshare so I am not sure it is going to turn out how your predict.

 

[Patranus]

1 out of every 2 smartphones/tablets activated is now a Droid... staggering from where they were a year ago (trailing Apple).

Again, Google would have to activate 30 out of every 1 smartphone/tablet to equal Apple on a single iPad sold (excluding iTunes/Apps/ect.)

Even when Apple was 'dead' Microsoft didn't have a 30:1 margin.

 

[ElFenix]

1,000,000 by far... you've never taken an undergrad marketing class? Flood the market at a loss and once you have the market share, then raise prices. How do you think Android took the market share from Apple iOS under their noses? Eventually numbers win out once consumers figure out they can get the same service at a cheaper price. Why do you think Apple is trying so hard to stop Android with patent litigation? Because they know they will never be able to outsell Android because their product, dollar for dollar spent, is inferior.

Of course there will always be technophobes who prefer Apple products, but the writing is on the wall if they let Android continue to flourish at a much cheaper price point entry level for consumers. Kindle Fire vs iPad is a prime example.

sounds like the .com business model. take a loss on every sale, but make up for it with volume.

 

[Arkaign]

Your (flawed) assumption is that hardware drives consumer choice.

That's not my assumption. It's part of the equation, just like anything else. The iPad wouldn't be the iPad if the hardware sucked. Hardware + software + support + price + marketing = recipe for success.

 

[Patranus]

That's not my assumption. It's part of the equation, just like anything else. The iPad wouldn't be the iPad if the hardware sucked. Hardware + software + support + price + marketing = recipe for success.

I agree to a point.

However, consumers view tablets not as computers but consumer electronic devices. Specs really don't matter to 99% of the population (remember we are on a tech site) as long as the user experience is preserved.

 

[Arkaign]

Well the Apple App Store is generating 4x as much revenue as the Google App store with googles "massive" marketshare so I am not sure it is going to turn out how your predict.

This is definitely a valid point, but if hardware sales become a distinct minority for apple, as all trends are showing, then the installed base will only grow for android-based devices. It just won't be as centralized as Apple's model, but more capitalist and diverse, and imho that's a good thing.

Think of it in comparison to a PC. Imagine if Microsoft not only made all Windows-running computer systems, but controlled all windows applications in a Microsoft store. Sure that would make a lot of $$ for Microsoft for a period of time, but it also actually would stagnate innovation due to centralized control. It's a lot like government-run industries that are insulated from free-market principles.

And the hardware cost is definitely a huge issue for Apple, unless they're willing to start the hardware as loss-leaders (this would be a wise move imho). With hardware costs falling so rapidly, iPad and iPhone equivalents running Android are available from a variety of makers competing against each other for features and cost. This model is going to move the chains very quickly in terms of what you get for your $. Apple will be the dumb choice if you can get a competing product for half the cost that does everything it can, and possibly more.

 

[3chordcharlie]

which is only profitable with the current patent system.

Not. Even. Close.

You are either the highest-functioning retard I've ever encountered, or one of the greatest trolls in the history of the internet.

Either way - congratulations: nearly everything you write I have to read two or three times to confirm that it is as stupid as I think.

My favorite so far in this thread:

This is America and you are entitled to make however much money you want from your hard work without the leeches of society telling you otherwise.

You are not entitled to however much profit you want to make from your inventions. You are entitled to however much profit you can make from your inventions. There is a huge difference. Nothing about the patent system changes this, though changes in that system might affect the resulting profit for any given invention.

 

[Wreckem]

This is definitely a valid point, but if hardware sales become a distinct minority for apple, as all trends are showing, then the installed base will only grow for android-based devices. It just won't be as centralized as Apple's model, but more capitalist and diverse, and imho that's a good thing.

Think of it in comparison to a PC. Imagine if Microsoft not only made all Windows-running computer systems, but controlled all windows applications in a Microsoft store. Sure that would make a lot of $$ for Microsoft for a period of time, but it also actually would stagnate innovation due to centralized control. It's a lot like government-run industries that are insulated from free-market principles.

And the hardware cost is definitely a huge issue for Apple, unless they're willing to start the hardware as loss-leaders (this would be a wise move imho). With hardware costs falling so rapidly, iPad and iPhone equivalents running Android are available from a variety of makers competing against each other for features and cost. This model is going to move the chains very quickly in terms of what you get for your $. Apple will be the dumb choice if you can get a competing product for half the cost that does everything it can, and possibly more.

People say the same shit about apples "overpriced" computers. And guess what? While HP, Dell, and everyone else raced to the bottom on price points.Hell HP wanted to exit the PC business. And I believe they still will in the next 2-3 years. On the other hand Apple is thriving in their computer sales and continue to beat the snot out of its PC counterparts in terms of growth/profit/etc. They also sell close to 9 out of 10 computers that cost $1000 or more.

And Kindle Fire = no where near an Ipad.

 

[SP33Demon]

People say the same shit about apples "overpriced" computers. And guess what? While HP, Dell, and everyone else raced to the bottom on price points. Apple is thriving in their computer sales. Hell HP wanted to exit the PC business. And I believe they still will in the next 2-3 years.

And Kindle Fire = no where near an Ipad.

You're way out of the loop, Fire is superior and not just b/c of price (*cough* Gorilla Glass *cough*)
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/violetblue/great-debate-postmortem-kindle-fire-vs-ipad/847

At $199, the Kindle Fire is the clear winner. You can get two for the price of one iPad and it doesn’t ever feel like you’re settling for less. The Fire is $300 cheaper than the entry-level iPad and $630 less expensive than the 64GB model with 3G.

I’m a serious and longtime Apple user. So it really surprised me when I got the Kindle Fire and found myself diving into it deeper and faster than my first iPad encounter. And I should disclose that the second time I touched an iPad I accidentally scratched it by nudging it - simultaneously ruining a gadget and a friendship.

Unless you're already an apple fanboi (w/ hundreds invested in itunes), kindle fire is waaaay better bang for your buck. We'll see how badly kindle crushes ipad in sales after the holidays as proof.

 

[Wreckem]

You're way out of the loop, Fire is superior and not just b/c of price (*cough* Gorilla Glass *cough*)
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/violetblue/great-debate-postmortem-kindle-fire-vs-ipad/847



Unless you're already an apple fanboi (w/ hundreds invested in itunes), kindle fire is waaaay better bang for your buck. We'll see how badly kindle crushes ipad in sales after the holidays as proof.

You'll be waiting because Amazon has never ever, released a sales figure for any of the kindles.

I've used a fire. I use both Macs and PCs.

The Fire isn't the same experience. And most of the reviews have said it is NOT an ipad replacement. So you're wrong. Amazon may sell a shit ton of kindles(at a cost millions of dollars) but thats not going to put a dent into Apples ipad sales. Just like Android hasn't put a dent in Apples iphone sales. Apple continues and will continue to sell more ipads/iphones every quarter.

Just look at the ultrabooks. PC manufactures are expected to announce upwards of 40-50 ultrabooks at CES. Apple is still pegged to sell $7billion worth of Macbook Airs, still have sales growth, all while losing market share to people that will be having paltry profit margins. Apple isn't concered with market share. They are concerned with their own sales. Their sales show no signs of slowing down and Apple will have $100billion in cash by summer.

Oh and I doubt you hear what you are hoping for. Market analysts have pegged the Fire at 4.5-5million for the year. You cannot expect much more than that as the manufacturer(Quanta) has said it will ship 5million by years end/early Jan. On the other hand Apple moved 11million ipads last quarter and analysts have Apple selling 12-13.5million ipads this quarter. That goes along with 30-32million iphones and another blockbuster record quarter for Apple.

Lets put this in perspective in terms of profit off ipad vs. profit off fire. Apple will make ~$2.5-3billion in profits off of its Ipad hardware sales during this Holiday Quarter. Amazon will be posting a $40-50million loss on its Fire hardware sales.

Another thing to keep in mind though, the iPad 3 is expected by March where as the Fire just launched.

 

[Patranus]

You are not entitled to however much profit you want to make from your inventions. You are entitled to however much profit you can make from your inventions. There is a huge difference. Nothing about the patent system changes this, though changes in that system might affect the resulting profit for any given invention.

Huh? Yes, you are entitled to however much someone will pay for your product.
The entire idea of a patent system is to protect those profits for the inventor of a product.
Now, what incentive does a company like Phizer have to invest a hundred million dollars into a new drug if a generic can be made when a competitor revere engineers it?

 

[Arkaign]

People say the same shit about apples "overpriced" computers. And guess what? While HP, Dell, and everyone else raced to the bottom on price points.Hell HP wanted to exit the PC business. And I believe they still will in the next 2-3 years. On the other hand Apple is thriving in their computer sales and continue to beat the snot out of its PC counterparts in terms of growth/profit/etc. They also sell close to 9 out of 10 computers that cost $1000 or more.

And Kindle Fire = no where near an Ipad.

Do you not realize what you just wrote? Cheap PCs are good for the consumer, and are still profitable for smart manufacturers. The huge majority of computer sales are in the $500 and less range, and for the average user who just does facebook/email/word/etc, spending $1k+ is just retarded to begin with. The macbooks are nice, but their desktops make no sense to the average person.

If anything, the market for overpriced hardware is only going to continue to recede due to economic forces. The emergence of ever more powerful SOC and more integrated designs will lead to $200 PCs in the coming couple of years that will do what 99% of people use computers for. That doesn't leave a lot of room for profit, but it doesn't exactly bode well to growing a market with products that cost 5 times as much.

10 years ago a decent PC was well over the $1k mark, 5 years ago it was still pretty high (you wanted C2D or Athlon X2 to have a decent system), now a $400 PC can be a quad core with 4GB of ram.

Price wars never favor high-cost options in any major market shift. The only way Apple could break out of the niche market that they occupy is by competing on cost, and they can't with their model. So the niche market is where they will stay, even if they hypothetically sell 100% of the systems costing $1k or more.

 

[Arkaign]

Apple continues and will continue to sell more ipads/iphones every quarter.

This is the statement where you show that you're just delusional. The market is not only finite, but will not support extremely expensive products in the face of equivalent and vastly improving competition for an infinite period of time. iOS is already losing install base rapidly to Android by measurement of unit sales.

 

[Raduque]

Yawn.

I guess any AT member would welcome be overjoyed to invite their competition (who has the goal of putting themselves out of business) into their work place and give their all of their trade secrets and intellectual property at the expense of their own job.

Even I can tell that you're a complete idiot.

 

[Patranus]

Even I can tell that you're a complete idiot.

Huh?
That is exactly what is happening. People at Google flaunt intellectual property law because they think they can get away with it. Hell, Mr. Schmidt ran Java and Oracle's intellectual property mysteriously ended up in Android. Wonder how that happened.

I guess you think that the companies which spend hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars developing these technologies should just roll over as their competitors steal their property.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Yep, Apple is doomed.

I think the funniest thing I've ever seen are Windows/Android fans/Apple haters claiming Apple is doomed.

They ignore facts and figures, charts, growth, adoption rates, customer satisfaction, quarterly earnings and proclaim "Apple is doomed"

You knot heads aren't objective enough to see what's happening in front of you, how you-all manage to not step in front of a bus is a constant source of amazement to me.

Anandtech members are a fringe group of consumers, and frankly Apple products aren't intended for you. They're intended for consumers not hardware geeks.

I could dig up a hundred surveys to prove the trend lines, etc, but that time would simply be wasted, because you're so firmly ensconced in a belief that's just dead, flat wrong.

And they talk about a reality distortion field at Apple, I see one every day, expressed as "fact".

I made $7K in Apple stock Friday, but I guess I need to realize that that money isn't real, and that Apple sales aren't real, and that Apple is doomed.

I laugh at you stupid fucks every day.

 

[AMCRambler]

Don't even worry about it. The courts are too slow and the lawyers too expensive. By the time they get around to prosecuting even 1/10th of the possible cases for patent infringement, the next big thing will be out. You'll all have cell chips embedded in your heads or something.

 

[Arkaign]

Yep, Apple is doomed.

I think the funniest thing I've ever seen are Windows/Android fans/Apple haters claiming Apple is doomed.

They ignore facts and figures, charts, growth, adoption rates, customer satisfaction, quarterly earnings and proclaim "Apple is doomed"

You knot heads aren't objective enough to see what's happening in front of you, how you-all manage to not step in front of a bus is a constant source of amazement to me.

Anandtech members are a fringe group of consumers, and frankly Apple products aren't intended for you. They're intended for consumers not hardware geeks.

I could dig up a hundred surveys to prove the trend lines, etc, but that time would simply be wasted, because you're so firmly ensconced in a belief that's just dead, flat wrong.

And they talk about a reality distortion field at Apple, I see one every day, expressed as "fact".

I made $7K in Apple stock Friday, but I guess I need to realize that that money isn't real, and that Apple sales aren't real, and that Apple is doomed.

I laugh at you stupid fucks every day.

I may not think Apple is going to have long-term success by keeping the current model indefinitely, but that doesn't mean I'm going to call those I disagree with "stupid fucks".

http://www.engadget.com/2011/12/14/shocker-android-grew-us-market-share-after-q2-ios-was-static/

That chart clearly shows that only iOS and Android are relevant to the near future (next three years at least) of phone OSes. And Android is becoming the titan of the arena. RIM is pathetic and can't keep up.

I even agree that iOS is for the most part better than Android for most casual users. But the difference isn't really that big, and Android devices are getting better by leaps and bounds.

If you can't admit that Apple has a large problem looking at the current trends, you might want to look again.

And I don't think you're stupid one bit about making $$ on good stock choices, that's just smart business. I don't attach my own feelings towards a product in my investment choices at all.

 

[Mike Gayner]

These threads are always hilarious. Fanboys from all sides are pathetic, whining little pussies who have forgotten what it means to argue over the internet about trivial shit.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Snip.

If you think any of that makes you look less like a 15 year old motörhead arguing in HS VoTech about Honda VS Toyota, you're sadly mistaken.

The same goes for the bulk of the posts in this thread.