Who won the debate?? Simple poll

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Coldkilla
Surprising that Obama is now up to McCain in terms of the Foreign Policy issues according to the new polls.

Now if thats not a slap in the face...

That's why he didn't want to have this debate. This was his strong point and him and Obama arguing over this could only help the latter.

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Coldkilla
Surprising that Obama is now up to McCain in terms of the Foreign Policy issues according to the new polls.

Now if thats not a slap in the face...

That's why he didn't want to have this debate. This was his strong point and him and Obama arguing over this could only help the latter.

Exactly... This debate was McCains talking point, and he lost. reps will say he won, dems say he lost... public opinion is all that counts, and public opinion across the board is that McCain lost. The next 2 debates wont focus on McCain's strong point.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: SigArms08

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Edit: I just checked the informal poll they had on the Fox News site and they even have Obama winning by 8% as of 7:20 est. Bizarre, I thought it was a wash myself.

That's because Obamatons skew younger and are more likely to spam internet polls.

Obamaton? How cute, a kiddie Transformer fan has coined a new term for Obama supporters.

This coming from a 'grown-up' man with over 45,000 posts in these forums alone!! LMAO


Regarding Obama and his vast experience - We should start taking a look at military members with 3 years of experience and consider promoting them to the rank of General. Such a thing would be absurd in the military, it would be ridiculous in a business environment, and it would be laughable in our educational system. But somehow, a similar situation is permissible in this election.

You do realize that some of the best leaders in history were people without much previous experience on the national stage, right? Should we just make the presidency like a deli? Everyone interested takes a number and so when you've got enough time in, you get it.

How about we pick the person who we think would do the best job and who supports the policies we support. Not the guy who happens to be the oldest.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: SigArms08

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Edit: I just checked the informal poll they had on the Fox News site and they even have Obama winning by 8% as of 7:20 est. Bizarre, I thought it was a wash myself.

That's because Obamatons skew younger and are more likely to spam internet polls.

Obamaton? How cute, a kiddie Transformer fan has coined a new term for Obama supporters.

This coming from a 'grown-up' man with over 45,000 posts in these forums alone!! LMAO


Regarding Obama and his vast experience - We should start taking a look at military members with 3 years of experience and consider promoting them to the rank of General. Such a thing would be absurd in the military, it would be ridiculous in a business environment, and it would be laughable in our educational system. But somehow, a similar situation is permissible in this election.

WWYBYWB?

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
The fact that this many people voted JM.....in an Obama dominated environment, is telling.

Freep is an 'Obama dominated environment' according to modern 'conservatives.'

Oh come on. Anywhere there are young idealistic college students (internet boards), there is a major left slant. Professors are very influential. Most people here get flamed for saying anything favoring JM.

there are only a handful of p&ners who are even remotely close to college age, i think i am the only one that is actually in college, and my school isn't exactly a liberal bastion.

 

[miketheidiot]

have had 12 hours to dwell on it and let it sink in, i don't think mccain did himself any favors by coming across as hostile and condescending as often he did, especially when he didn't have a counter arguement to refute obama. As far as simple strength of performance goes, i think it was a moderate obama win.

Originally posted by: BeauJangles
I thought McCain looked like a fool most of the time. His foreign policy talk consisted mostly of flashbacks to him and Kissinger hanging out. In fact, most of his points either completely sidestepped an issue or were trips down memory lane. I think Obama held a lot of punches during this debate, but we'll see them fly in the near future.

i agree with this to an extent, mccain really did seem stuck in the past in an election were most people seem to be looking to the future.

 

[Jaskalas]

When the choice presents itself to vote for neither man, I will cast that vote.

The debate did not change my mind, I already knew where they stand on the issues. The debate is for public awareness, to help people decide who have never seen the two men before.

Obviously here in P&N we have known their positions for months, nothing is going to change our minds.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

McCain talked about his POW way too much.

 

[palehorse]

I still think McCain is out to lunch on the Afghan/Pakistan issue while Obama knows what needs to be done there... and that still completely baffles me. It's as though they're both switching their normal stances on that single issue. I would expect McCain to be hawkish with Pakistan, and I would expect Obama to be timid... but they've taken stances completely opposite of that. It's just... odd.

Obama's performance in this debate was what I've come to expect from him. He's articulate and clearly thinks through the answer to each question. McCain seems thoughtful as well, but I did not like how he kept returning to the "spending" lines as though they applied perfectly to every single question asked. Yes, spending is perhaps the root of every problem, but saying the same thing every time didn't exactly inspire confidence in his ability to analyze each issue separately.

All-in-all, I think the debate itself was a "tie." Both candidates showed that they are thoughtful on each issue, but neither one of them knocked out the other. Therefore, my vote stays the same -- for now -- and that is for Obama.

EDIT: McCain did make one huge solid point that I never saw Obama respond to, and that was when he said something akin to "The decision to enter Iraq will not be the job of the next President. Instead, the required decisions will concern how we leave Iraq." I thought that was a powerful jab at those who are stuck dwelling on the original 2003 decision to invade rather than figuring out how we should leave appropriately.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
McCain talked about his POW way too much.

umm, if I recall correctly -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- McCain only mentioned his being a POW once, and that was near the end of the debate. I think he touched on the Vietnam War a few times, but those mentions were in response to a specific question regarding lessons learned from Vietnam vs. lessons from Iraq.

??

 

[Squisher]

Although, they are in the minority here, those of you that voted yes to the last two questions in the poll, I'd like to hear what made you change your mind and what do you think changed the mind of the average voter?

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: palehorse
..snip...

EDIT: McCain did make one huge solid point that I never saw Obama respond to, and that was when he said something akin to "The decision to enter Iraq will not be the job of the next President. Instead, the required decisions will concern how we leave Iraq." I thought that was a powerful jab at those who are stuck dwelling on the original 2003 decision to invade rather than figuring out how we should leave appropriately.

I saw the same thing and I think many undecideds did as well.

 

[Zorba]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: loki8481
my candidate won and the other guy tanked it.

Actually, in all seriousness I thought they both did okay. If you compare this debate to Bush v. Gore or Bush v. Kerry, I think it's striking how much more composed, thoughtful, and, well, smart these guys are. Both of them. I'm still voting for Obama, but I feel a little more encouraged that if McCain does win, it won't be the unmitigated disaster that the last 8 years have been.

That might help McCain.

IF he can convince enough people that Obama is too much of a risk.

People might look at Obama and say "I like what he says, but I don't trust him enough or have enough confidence in him" at which point that can look at McCain and feel that he will do a good job and vote for him.

I am an independent planning on voting for Obama. This debate did make me feel a lot better about McCain, but then I remember Palin and just the way he has been running his campaign and he scares that crap out of me again. I always liked him until he started changing himself up when he started running. And Palin beginning anywhere near the whitehouse scares me.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: palehorse
..snip...

EDIT: McCain did make one huge solid point that I never saw Obama respond to, and that was when he said something akin to "The decision to enter Iraq will not be the job of the next President. Instead, the required decisions will concern how we leave Iraq." I thought that was a powerful jab at those who are stuck dwelling on the original 2003 decision to invade rather than figuring out how we should leave appropriately.

I saw the same thing and I think many undecideds did as well.

I don't get that at all. The decision of the next president won't be to authorize the surge or not either. McCain is trying to run on his judgment and for the single biggest test of it, he failed.

 

[Zorba]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: palehorse
..snip...

EDIT: McCain did make one huge solid point that I never saw Obama respond to, and that was when he said something akin to "The decision to enter Iraq will not be the job of the next President. Instead, the required decisions will concern how we leave Iraq." I thought that was a powerful jab at those who are stuck dwelling on the original 2003 decision to invade rather than figuring out how we should leave appropriately.

I saw the same thing and I think many undecideds did as well.

I don't get that at all. The decision of the next president won't be to authorize the surge or not either. McCain is trying to run on his judgment and for the single biggest test of it, he failed.

And the next president will decide whether or not to attack Iran and who know who else, so showing you made the right decisions in the past is a good indication of how you would act in the future.

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Edit: I just checked the informal poll they had on the Fox News site and they even have Obama winning by 8% as of 7:20 est. Bizarre, I thought it was a wash myself.

That's because Obamatons skew younger and are more likely to spam internet polls.

Thats probably true... but all of the polls still have Obama ahead. This debate wont help McCain at all, it may cost him a few more percentage points.


112,000 votes (and climbing) from a link at MSNBC have Obama 79% to McCain 15%

http://jeffblack.newsvine.com/...he-presidential-debate

 

[Harvey]

The replies in this thread are about what I'd expect from AT P&N, and it's no secret I agree with the results of this poll. I found this article by Time Magazine political analyst, Mark Halperin interesting because it broke it down into a more nuanced analysis than simple questions of wins and losses on various aspects of their performances:

Grading the First Presidential Debate

By MARK HALPERIN / OXFORD, MISSISSIPPI

John McCain

Substance:[/b] His arguments were hard to follow at the beginning, but he found his voice as the debate progressed, although he never seemed fully in control of his message. He had plenty to say about the economy, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Russia, but often bogged down his own answers when trying to unfurl quips and soundbites. Stuck with bumper sticker slogans on the economy, and while he got a bit more detailed on foreign policy, he stayed at his usual level of abstraction. If he truly knows more about the world than Obama, he didn't show it in this debate.

Grade: B-

Style: Cluttered, jumpy, and often muddled. Frequent coughing early on helped neither his arguments nor his image. Jokes about being deaf and anecdotes about Normandy and George Shultz seemed ill-advised - even his pen was old. His presentation was further hindered by his wandering discussion of the differing heights of North and South Koreans and his angry assertion about how well he knows Henry Kissinger. Fell into the classic politician's trap of inserting familiar stump speech applause lines into debate responses - which only works if done with enthusiasm and clarity (and if received by applause - a big No-No in Lehrer's auditorium, which the audience obeyed seriously and silently). Keenly aware of the grand, grave occasion, McCain wavered between respectful and domineering, and ended up awkward and edgy.

Grade: C-

Offense: Emphasized his bread and butter issues of taxes and spending, and hit Obama on his failure to visit Iraq and his expressed willingness to meet with dictators. But while mocking his opponent on a few occasions, which reflected his acute disrespect for Obama, he did so in an insufficiently sharp and detailed manner - and unevenly worked elements of his rival's record into his attacks. Still he was utterly confident about his own experience, knowledge, and policies, even when tripped by his own tongue and distracted by the strains of debate practice. The main problem: Obama's obvious preparation and sharp answers contradicted McCain's frequent claims that the Democrat was uninformed and "didn't understand" key issues.

Grade: C+

Defense: He managed to ignore most of Obama's jibes, but was eventually baited into giving an extended answer about his policy differences with President Bush, after his opponent repeatedly mentioned McCain's regular support of Bush's budgets. Was visibly riled when clashing with Obama over a variety of issues, including Iraq, sanctions, and spending. He also chose to boast about Sarah Palin (although not by name) as his maverick partner, who, after her shaky week, may no longer be his ace in the hole.

Grade: B-

Overall: McCain was McCain - evocative, intense, and at times emotional, but also vague, elliptical, and atonal. Failed to deliver his "country first versus Obama first" message cleanly, even when offered several opportunities. Surprisingly, did not talk much about "change," virtually ceding the dominant issue of the race.

Overall grade: B-

Barack Obama

Substance: Quite manifestly immersed in the past, present, and future details of policy, and eager to express his views, which have been expanded, honed, and solidified during the last 18 months of hard campaigning. Still, he did avoid the nitty-gritty details of policy positions in favor of broad principles and references to working Americans, thereby not presenting the kind of specifics that some voters are waiting to hear from him.

Grade: B+

Style: Polished, confident, focused. Fully prepared, and able to convey a real depth of knowledge on nearly every issue. He was unhurried, and rarely lost his train of thought even when the debate wended and winded - and uttered far fewer of his trademark, distracting, "ums." At times, however, Obama revealed the level of his preparation by faltering over a rehearsed answer. He seemed to deliberately focus on the moderator and the home audience, with McCain as an afterthought - except when on the attack. Chose to avoid humor, for the most part, in favor of a stern demeanor, and in the process, came off as cool as a cucumber.

Grade: A

Offense: Linking McCain to Bush in his very first answer, he kept it up as his primary line of attack. Forcefully hit McCain for his early support of the Iraq War. Though he never drew blood, he did keep McCain a bit off balance, often with clever references to McCain's recent statements.

Grade: B

Defense: Had a reasonable answer for every charge that came his way - with little anger, bluster, or anxiety. Often interrupting McCain attacks with swift explanations and comebacks, he managed to spin accusations of being liberal as evidence of his relentless opposition to George Bush (in replies that were clearly planned). Offered a rather clumsy alternative to McCain's well-known, moving story of wearing the bracelet of a soldier lost in Iraq (a gift from the soldier's mother), with a story about a bracelet of his own. Fearless, without condescension, he attempted the gracious move of agreeing with or complimenting a McCain position, occasionally to his own detriment.

Grade: A-

Overall: Went for a solid, consistent performance to introduce himself to the country. He did not seem nervous, tentative, or intimidated by the event, and avoided mistakes from his weak debate performances during nomination season (a professorial tone and long winded answers). Standing comfortably on the stage with his rival, he showed he belonged - evocative of Reagan, circa 1980. He was so confident by the end that he reminded his biggest audience yet that his father was from Kenya. Two more performances like that and he will be very tough to beat on Election Day.

Overall grade Grade: A-

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Obviously McCain supporters are more likely to watch Fox News, while Obama supporters watch REAL news stations. *snicker* :roll:

Fixed it for ya. 😎

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: palehorse
..snip...

EDIT: McCain did make one huge solid point that I never saw Obama respond to, and that was when he said something akin to "The decision to enter Iraq will not be the job of the next President. Instead, the required decisions will concern how we leave Iraq." I thought that was a powerful jab at those who are stuck dwelling on the original 2003 decision to invade rather than figuring out how we should leave appropriately.

I saw the same thing and I think many undecideds did as well.

I don't get that at all. The decision of the next president won't be to authorize the surge or not either. McCain is trying to run on his judgment and for the single biggest test of it, he failed.

Exactly, I voted for this clusterfubar and now I have the best ideas how we can come home with victory in 100 years. BS, dear John, your judgment is worthless when you voted for the war and you reaffirmed it with Palin.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: palehorse
..snip...

EDIT: McCain did make one huge solid point that I never saw Obama respond to, and that was when he said something akin to "The decision to enter Iraq will not be the job of the next President. Instead, the required decisions will concern how we leave Iraq." I thought that was a powerful jab at those who are stuck dwelling on the original 2003 decision to invade rather than figuring out how we should leave appropriately.

I saw the same thing and I think many undecideds did as well.

I don't get that at all. The decision of the next president won't be to authorize the surge or not either. McCain is trying to run on his judgment and for the single biggest test of it, he failed.

Exactly, I voted for this clusterfubar and now I have the best ideas how we can come home with victory in 100 years. BS, dear John, your judgment is worthless when you voted for the war and you reaffirmed it with Palin.

[McCain] Horseshit [/McCain]

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Exactly, I voted for this clusterfubar and now I have the best ideas how we can come home with victory in 100 years. BS, dear John, your judgment is worthless when you voted for the war and you reaffirmed it with Palin.

[McCain] Horseshit [/McCain]

You get that worked up when Clinton and Kerry voted for it?

Obama is just lucky that he was too young to vote for the Iraq war, or he would have joined the popular wisdom at the time along with the rest of his fellow Democratic senators.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Obama is just lucky that he was too young to vote for the Iraq war, or he would have joined the popular wisdom at the time along with the rest of his fellow Democratic senators.

What you smokin', Rufus? :roll:

In October 2002, before being elected to the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama made a speech opposing the Bush Administration's plan to go to war in Iraq because he felt it was an ill-conceived venture which would "require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undermined cost, with undetermined consequences."

Now, as a U.S. Senator, Senator Obama has continued to critique the Administration's mishandling of this war, and believes that while our troops have done an outstanding job in Iraq, there can be no military solution to what is inherently a political conflict between Iraq's warring factions. The only hope to end this burgeoning civil war is for Shias, Sunnis, and Kurds to come together and resolve their differences. That's why Senator Obama agrees with the Iraq Study Group's conclusion that we must begin a phased redeployment of American troops to signal to the government and people of Iraq that ours is not an open-ended commitment.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Exactly, I voted for this clusterfubar and now I have the best ideas how we can come home with victory in 100 years. BS, dear John, your judgment is worthless when you voted for the war and you reaffirmed it with Palin.

[McCain] Horseshit [/McCain]

You get that worked up when Clinton and Kerry voted for it?

Obama is just lucky that he was too young to vote for the Iraq war, or he would have joined the popular wisdom at the time along with the rest of his fellow Democratic senators.

[McCain] Horseshit [/McCain]

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Obama is just lucky that he was too young to vote for the Iraq war, or he would have joined the popular wisdom at the time along with the rest of his fellow Democratic senators.

What you smokin', Rufus? :roll:

In October 2002, before being elected to the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama made a speech opposing the Bush Administration's plan to go to war in Iraq because he felt it was an ill-conceived venture which would "require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undermined cost, with undetermined consequences."

Now, as a U.S. Senator, Senator Obama has continued to critique the Administration's mishandling of this war, and believes that while our troops have done an outstanding job in Iraq, there can be no military solution to what is inherently a political conflict between Iraq's warring factions. The only hope to end this burgeoning civil war is for Shias, Sunnis, and Kurds to come together and resolve their differences. That's why Senator Obama agrees with the Iraq Study Group's conclusion that we must begin a phased redeployment of American troops to signal to the government and people of Iraq that ours is not an open-ended commitment.

This forcefully puts this to rest. I will tear up in abject disappointment should I see Jaskalas or any other poster try to make such a false claim here ever again. 😉

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Obama is just lucky that he was too young to vote for the Iraq war, or he would have joined the popular wisdom at the time along with the rest of his fellow Democratic senators.

What you smokin', Rufus? :roll:

He wasn't in Washington DC to be given the knowledge and direction from his fellow Senators. Do not be so confident that he would have opposed Clinton, Kennedy, Kerry and other Democrat's decision to vote yes.

It's easy to stand outside looking in, without any pressure from the party or from the voters weighing in on you.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Obama is just lucky that he was too young to vote for the Iraq war, or he would have joined the popular wisdom at the time along with the rest of his fellow Democratic senators.

What you smokin', Rufus? :roll:

He wasn't in Washington DC to be given the knowledge and direction from his fellow Senators. Do not be so confident that he would have opposed Clinton, Kennedy, Kerry and other Democrat's decision to vote yes.

It's easy to stand outside looking in, without any pressure from the party or from the voters weighing in on you.

There were also a lot of Democrats who voted no on the war. In fact, all 23 nay votes came from Democrats.

So you're basically full of shit here, trying to obfuscate with a 'what if' when we already know for a fact what was.