who should we not allow to buy guns

[Muse]

Very few would dispute this reply. The bold part however, is myopic. If the guns and ammo were illegal, it would present numerous ways the suspect might be caught and/or stopped before acquiring everything necessary to carry out a violent crime using them. If the black market makes the hardware much more expensive, it would be a barrier for many would be purchasers. Some might be sponsored to commit acts of terrorism. The financing would provide opportunity for LE and other agencies to become aware. Some would need to commit other crimes to raise the cash, another opportunity to get caught before getting the weapons and ammo. Teh suspect might get caught up in a sting when going to purchase the weapons. Or run into an informant. Many scenarios that do not exist with legal ownership would come into play.

That said, I am a 2nd amendment supporter. And no matter what drastic measures were implemented, determined fanatics like this latest POSwill find a way. And if they fail, another, and another will take their place until they finally do succeed. Infringing on the rights of all, is not a solution, it is a victory for those it would be intended to stop.

And so, the message you convey is that the most committed to gun-crime will manage to do it. Reasonable, but making it harder will reduce the problem. Your last paragraph is where you lose the plot. Other than that you were doing well.

 

[Artdeco]

Remind me, did we ban UHauls, I forget...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

 

[Mxylplyx]

As I said several times, guns are not the problem, idiots/haters/crazies with guns are. Heck let say tomorrow all guns are gone on this Earth, crazies will use other means to kill others, just from day to day goods. You can not legislate/control stupidity and hate.

Funny how those gun "reform" folks forget to mention how countries such as Mexico and Brazil are doing with their strict gun control. They have more shootings than us.

See this post about the latest shooting in Chicago by your truly - http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=38291120&postcount=158

This is just foolish thinking. People that suggest this engage in a great deal of cognitive dissonance about the motives behind gun control in order to rationalize the decision to do nothing.

PERFECT SHOULD NOT BE THE ENEMY OF GOOD

The gun violence in America is directly attributed to the wide availability of guns here. There is no credible study that can refute this. If hand grenades were legal to buy, the number of people murdered by hand grenades would increase significantly. If dynamite were legal to buy without permit, the number of people murdered by dynamite would go way up. Here in America where guns are very easy to purchase and own, the number of gun deaths is vastly higher than the rest of the world where gun ownership is severely restricted. You seriously think that is just some coincidence? You think America has a monopoly on crazy people intent on killing others? We willfully provide the tools in this country to enable single deranged individuals to inflict mass carnage, and they are doing just that. Suggesting that every individual intent on killing would have the same success with a pointy stick absent a gun is just plain stupid.

Also, bringing up gun violence in Mexico and Brazil is misguided as well. Where do you think they get most of their guns? Right here in America, where dozens of factories are pumping them out full tilt. All that shit has to be shut down.



p.s. If you think that the human cost of wide gun availability is simply a price worth paying to preserve the current freedoms of gun ownership, just come out and say it, but to suggest that there is no correlation between the availability of guns and the gun violence rate in this country is a bald faced lie.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Remind me, did we ban UHauls, I forget...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

I'd imagine you find this response real clever. I can promise you it's not.

 

[Svnla]

This is just foolish thinking. People that suggest this engage in a great deal of cognitive dissonance about the motives behind gun control in order to rationalize the decision to do nothing.

PERFECT SHOULD NOT BE THE ENEMY OF GOOD

The gun violence in America is directly attributed to the wide availability of guns here. There is no credible study that can refute this. If hand grenades were legal to buy, the number of people murdered by hand grenades would increase significantly. If dynamite were legal to buy without permit, the number of people murdered by dynamite would go way up. Here in America where guns are very easy to purchase and own, the number of gun deaths is vastly higher than the rest of the world where gun ownership is severely restricted. You seriously think that is just some coincidence? You think America has a monopoly on crazy people intent on killing others? We willfully provide the tools in this country to enable single deranged individuals to inflict mass carnage, and they are doing just that. Suggesting that every individual intent on killing would have the same success with a pointy stick absent a gun is just plain stupid.

Also, bringing up gun violence in Mexico and Brazil is misguided as well. Where do you think they get most of their guns? Right here in America, where dozens of factories are pumping them out full tilt. All that shit has to be shut down.



p.s. If you think that the human cost of wide gun availability is simply a price worth paying to preserve the current freedoms of gun ownership, just come out and say it, but to suggest that there is no correlation between the availability of guns and the gun violence rate in this country is a bald faced lie.

More blah blah blah.

Since AR15 and its cousins have been around since the 60's, why no massive shooting by using them until recently? Guns have been with us since before the creation of the US yet we were doing ok until recently. I don't remember any massing shooting/killing while I was little/in school, why is that, eh? Why countries such as Switzerland and Israel have a lot of guns but no massive shooting like us, eh?

Guns in Brazil are from the US? Really? From HuffPo, not IRA =

A popular misconception is that automatic assault rifles trafficked from neighboring countries are behind the city´s spike in lethal violence. Grainy footage of young men menacingly waving AK-47s are circulating in social media. Media stories regularly feature line-ups of arrested suspects and their arsenals of heavy weaponry.

The facts on the ground tell a very different story. Between 2010 and 2014, at least 39,150 firearms were seized in Rio de Janeiro. According to military and civil police records, 3,989 firearms were collected in the first five months of 2015. Of these, roughly 80% were handguns. Just 223, or 5%, of all the collected weapons consisted of semiautomatic rifles and machine guns.

From Rio de Janeiro to Sao Paulo, revolvers and pistols are most commonly used in crime - over 90% of all reported gun-related incidents according to the civil police. What is more, about two thirds of all seized guns were previously legally registered to civilian owners, highlighting the murky continuum linking the legal and black markets.

= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-muggah/brazils-gun-violence-prob_b_7831298.html

Assault guns in Mexico are NOT mostly from the US , from NPR =

Mr. FARLEY: Well, we don't know exactly what percentage of all the recovered guns in Mexico, where they're coming from. But, you know, a Mexican official that we spoke with said that the percentage of guns confiscated in Mexico probably is closer to the 90 percent figure than the 17. If not, fully 90 percent, probably close to that. He said that almost all of the handguns that are confiscated in Mexico come from the United States. And that amongst the assault weapons, while a good number of them are coming from the United States, they're also - that's more of a mixed bag. And they're coming, as well, through some of the drug routes in Eastern Europe and Africa.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103224899

So guns from the multiple shootings in Belgium, France, etc, are from the US too, right? <snickering>

Which is which? Which is a lie/propaganda/misguided? What that old saying? Something about do not let a crisis comes to waste, the facts/truth be damn.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

And so, the message you convey is that the most committed to gun-crime will manage to do it. Reasonable, but making it harder will reduce the problem. Your last paragraph is where you lose the plot. Other than that you were doing well.

The last part was lazy. a talking point. I should have written that I do not like knee jerk reactionary legislation to any issue. We keep having our rights eroded in an effort to increase safety. That legislation finds its momentum in tragedies like 9-11 and O-town.

The utterly intractable opposition, when large enough a group, is important during these moments. Even if their position is drastic and unreasonable, dragging out any equally drastic and unreasonable reaction helps preserve existing rights long enough for cooler heads to usually prevail.

I am among those that think we can improve on our current firearms legislation. Without punishing law abiding citizens in the process. Though many of the most vociferous opponents of that legislation equate inconvenience with punishment. Turning the whole thing into a shit show. However, their being so intractable is something I understand. Because that attitude is due, in part, to the knee jerk responses of our society, to tragedies. Which in turn, often results in that group experiencing knee jerk reactions too. And the circle of fail perpetuates itself.

 

[Mxylplyx]

More blah blah blah.

Since AR15 and its cousins have been around since the 60's, why no massive shooting by using them until recently? Guns have been with us since before the creation of the US yet we were doing ok until recently. I don't remember any massing shooting/killing while I was little/in school, why is that, eh? Why countries such as Switzerland and Israel have a lot of guns but no massive shooting like us, eh?

Guns in Brazil are from the US? Really? From HuffPo, not IRA =




= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-muggah/brazils-gun-violence-prob_b_7831298.html

Which is which? Which is a lie/propaganda? What that old saying? Something about do not let a crisis comes to waste, the facts/truth be damn.

Why do you seem singularly focused on long guns? Perhaps you should read further up the thread. I'm advocating for a sharp reduction in ALL gun manufacturing and ownership, particularly those of a non-hunting purpose, which would include most handguns. Also, you didn't even touch on my point regarding Mexico and Brazil, where I argue that they source most of their weapons from the US. I dont know that for a fact regarding Brazil, but I'd be shocked to learn otherwise. Whether they are semi-auto pistols, revolvers, or long rifles is irrelevant.

 

[Svnla]

Why do you seem singularly focused on long guns? Perhaps you should read further up the thread. I'm advocating for a sharp reduction in ALL gun manufacturing and ownership, particularly those of a non-hunting purpose, which would include most handguns. Also, you didn't even touch on my point regarding Mexico and Brazil, where I argue that they source most of their weapons from the US. I dont know that for a fact regarding Brazil, but I'd be shocked to learn otherwise. Whether they are semi-auto pistols, revolvers, or long rifles is irrelevant.

Why do I focus on long guns? Because that what the shooters in FL used and the ones in CA and Belgium and France used and Hillary is yelling for ban/control already for those scary black "assault" rifles.

Read my above post about Mexico and Brazil again. I added the link from NPR for Mexico. The US is NOT the main sources for most of their guns as you claimed.

See my questions about Swiss and Israel? Why they have more guns per capita yet they do not have any massive shooting as the US? That's my point.

My points still stand. Guns are not the problems. Idiots/Haters/Crazies with guns are.

 

[Artdeco]

I'd imagine you find this response real clever. I can promise you it's not.

168 dead, it's not a clever response, it's horrible, and it's a fact, something you seem intent on ignoring, because it doesn't fit with your agenda.

Let's ignore pressure cookers, home made explosives, diesel fuel, airliners...

Let's ignore gun deaths have been declining steadily for decades

Let's ignore the liberal rhetoric has spiked gun sales to an unimaginable level.

Let's ignore it's in fact safer now in the US than it ever has been, and that the media is stirring the pot to generate income for themselves.

Let's ignore a closeted, homophobic, radical, wife beating, twice interviewed by the FBI, Muslim just fell off the radar because we're intent on proving its more important to make a 90 year old white/Hispanic/whatever race take off their shoes in an airport to prove we're not profiling Muslims.

On Friday, the 24th, payday, I predict massive AR 15 sales, probably the highest number of sales of AR's ever, every forum I frequent people are posting their plan to put off other expenditures to buy one before another ban or restriction, strong work.

Carry on with your agenda, and feel free to ignore the facts, and the harsh realities of life and terrorism.

PSA, here's a list of under $500 AR15's, and a link to find a FFL transfer dealer

https://www.wikiarms.com/group/ar15rifles

http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/DealerNetwork.aspx

 

[Linux23]

Latest news, no gun but still able to kill - https://www.yahoo.com/news/french-police-commander-killed-jihadi-121245473.html

https://www.yahoo.com/news/killing-two-police-officers-paris-090704098.html

.

yep, so easy to do a mass stabbing.

 

[Svnla]

yep, so easy to do a mass stabbing.

Gas (Japan train) , farming fertilizer (OKC bombing), airplanes (9/11), homemade devices (Boston), etc = massive killings.

Don't forget printers, shoes, underwares, etc. that could done heavy damages if those idiots were successful.

Do you see any guns?

 

[Artdeco]

yep, so easy to do a mass stabbing.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/

29 enough for you?

 

[Linux23]

Gas, farming fertilizer, airplanes, homemade devices, etc = massive killings.

Still no guns needed.

i'm replying to that bs knife argument. you really are grasping at straws there buddy.

 

[Linux23]

the stinch of desperation in this thread is appaling. yup, let me see how easy it is to high jack a plane and fly it into a building.

 

[Artdeco]

i'm replying to that bs knife argument. you really are grasping at straws there buddy.

Save a life, surrender your knife

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...n-ban-uk-urges-save-life-surrender-your-knife

 

[Svnla]

i'm replying to that bs knife argument. you really are grasping at straws there buddy.

Funny I did not say anything about massive killing with knife in that post but you quoted it and said =

yep, so easy to do a mass stabbing.

BS and Straws anyone?

the stinch of desperation in this thread is appaling. yup, let me see how easy it is to high jack a plane and fly it into a building.

You "forgot" to mention about the explosive by the size of a soda can brought down the whole Russian airplane recently. Still no guns needed. Desperation, eh?

Evil people will find way(s) to do their evil things. No matter what you control/legislate/ban.

 

[Artdeco]

the stinch of desperation in this thread is appaling. yup, let me see how easy it is to high jack a plane and fly it into a building.

Seriously, what they did was brilliant tactically, cheap, effective, and it cost us trillions of dollars, we're still paying for it.

 

[Svnla]

yep, so easy to do a mass stabbing.

Not in US but 29 dead, 130 wounded, not by any guns but knives/cleavers- http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/

 

[blankslate]

You just lost any credibility with me, seriously. The loons in California don't even consider it an assault weapon.

Under the right circumstances it seems that 22LR rounds have been used in combat to devastating effect
https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/20120830.aspx

Then in the 1990s the Russians noted that Chechen snipers were effectively using .22 LR (long rifle, them little bullets kids use to hunt squirrels and rabbits with) weapons. Inside towns and cities, the .22 LR sniper was very effective, especially since the Chechens would improvise a very workable silencer by putting a plastic bottle on the end of the rifle's barrel, with a hole in the bottom of the barrel for the bullet to exit. Using a cheap scope, Chechen snipers were very deadly at ranges of less than a hundred meters. Such ranges were pretty common in built up areas. And since you usually did not hear the shot (to the head or face, of course), you had a hard time finding the shooter.

Having suffered from these low tech .22 caliber Chechen snipers for ten years, the Russians have come out with their own professional .22 LR sniper rifle, the SV-99. This is a little heavier (at 3.8 kg/8.3 pounds) than your usual .22 LR rifle but is built for professionals. It has a heavier barrel, a bipod, silencer, and scope. It's a meter (39 inches) long and can accept five, eight, or ten round magazines. There is a compartment in the butt stock for two five round magazines. With the SV-99, at a hundred meters, a skilled shooter can consistently put all rounds in a 12mm (half inch) circle.

The point is that just about any caliber round hitting you in the wrong place like your face or skull or neck is most likely going to fuck up your day or the rest of your (short?) life.

Shot placement is the key with smaller calibers.

That being said, yeah. most crazy mass murderers will gravitate toward the weapons chambered for ammunition that are more well regarded for being more likely to put a person down than the 22LR.

But if a person was really crazy enough and only had access to a 22LR weapon he probably could kill a few people in a crowded area assuming no one tried tackling him (or no LEO or person with a more typical CCW weapon was nearby to respond) before being stopped.


______________

 

[Paladin3]

Further the discussion? The only place these discussions go is in circles. And most of you keep using the same tired NRA or anti-gun lobby talking points, we have all read 1000s of times. Hell, I did it in the only post I made here. Why? There is nothing that can be said here, that has not been a mantra for decades. No new ideas or solutions. It is one group demanding nothing change, the other demanding it must. Furthering/advancing such a topic is highly improbable.

In just this short quote, you invoked a hyperbolic example, typical of the slippery slope fallacies participants in gun threads constantly invoke. Any amendment to an amendment is ignoring it. You can only mitigate crime through draconian measures, there is no sensible, logical, intermediary step. It is the same effort in futility that characterizes "discussions" with religious folks.

And you are right, you have no idea what point I was trying to make.

Utter BS.

Nothing I've said in this debate has ever been hyperbolic. IMHO, total seizure of all firearms in private hands would likely start a civil war and spell the end of America as a free and democratic society. This would happen because of the overwhelming powers that would have to be given to the executive branch, law enforcement and the military to accomplish such a stupid plan.

There are more firearms in America than there are people. The American psyche values the individuals and family over government and society as a whole. Good or bad, we just aren't culturally prepared to give up individual firearm ownership for the "greater good."

Also, there are a whole group of folks out there who would use the disarming of America as an opportunity to impose bigger government. Once the second amendment was out of the way they would go after other amendments that they feel are impediments to running the country to their liking.

This is not hyperbolic or paranoid speech. I'm simply stating the truth about the American way of life, our free and democratic society, and not taking the first step down a road that very well could end it.

And for a solution to the problem, which I've long advocated, I propose we not lose our heads and freak out when shootings like this happen. Terrible, evil tragedies indeed, but they are relatively rare and blown out of proportion by our media and politicians looking to gain power through invoking fear.

Evil needs to be combated by good men and women ready to fight back. Cops aren't super humans, they are just good people who've been trained and are willing to fight back when necessary. I don't know why training and arming more good folks freaks everyone out.

Actually, I do. Too many idiots believe that owning a gun turns you automatically into a murderer. That those scary looking black guns have the magical ability to turn Gandhi into Hitler. It's an insulting attitude that is demeaning to every moral person in the world, that an inanimate object would make you abandon your values and commit evil acts. We're better than that.

I know nothing is perfect. Accidents and evil can never be stopped before they happen 100% of the time. In an free and democratic society we can't prevent all crimes because that would take draconian measure that at least some of us aren't prepared to accept. That's why we propose fighting back against these relatively rare but despicable shootings when they happen, but that removing guns from America ain't gonna happen and is a stupid plan that will only disarm the law-abiding.

These aren't NRA talking points, I'm not a member, and I'm not rehashing the same tired arguments in circles. I've got a plan, but people don't like it because it involves them being responsible for their own personal protection in any instance where first responders haven't yet arrived. Kinda like owning a fire extinguisher to stop a fire while it's still small rather than waiting for the fire department. Sometimes turning off an evil individual *MUST* happen as soon as possible to save lives. I wish we could accomplish that with a fire extinguisher, but it takes a gun. Sorry.

 

[Artdeco]

Under the right circumstances it seems that 22LR rounds have been used in combat to devastating effect
https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/20120830.aspx


The point is that just about any caliber round hitting you in the wrong place like your face or skull or neck is most likely going to fuck up your day or the rest of your (short?) life.

Shot placement is the key with smaller calibers.

That being said, yeah. most crazy mass murderers will gravitate toward the weapons chambered for ammunition that are more well regarded for being more likely to put a person down than the 22LR.

But if a person was really crazy enough and only had access to a 22LR weapon he probably could kill a few people in a crowded area assuming no one tried tackling him (or no LEO or person with a more typical CCW weapon was nearby to respond) before being stopped.


______________

Point taken, but it's a sniper rifle, not an assault weapon. Bolt action, etc...

 

[Linux23]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/

29 enough for you?

Twenty-nine people were killed and 130 were injured Saturday night when 10 men armed with long knives stormed the station in the southwest Chinese city of Kunming, the state news agency Xinhua reported.

 

[Linux23]

Not in US but 29 dead, 130 wounded, not by any guns but knives/cleavers- http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/

again

Twenty-nine people were killed and 130 were injured Saturday night when 10 men armed with long knives stormed the station in the southwest Chinese city of Kunming, the state news agency Xinhua reported.

10 men did this. could 1 man stab and kill 29 people in mass like this? guns make it a hell of a lot easier for 1 man to wipe out 49. especially in an enclosed area.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Paladin3


This is just so you know I read your post. And did not ignore you. No response to it. I wrote what I wanted to already.

 

[blankslate]

Point taken, but it's a sniper rifle, not an assault weapon. Bolt action, etc..

Granted but the guy in my hypothetical might use a semi-auto handgun chambered for 22LR. It's unlikely, but it is within the realm of possibility.... and hopefully never happens with this caliber because I have a Marlin Model 60 that is fun to take to the range for a day of plinking and I don't want general bad opinions to form up around this caliber as it has with AR-15s


______________