Because if there is a stock market crash, those who "opted out" of SS are going to vote to "opt in" themselves, and then they would get something for nothing and leave others holding the bill. So no, it can't be optional. It must be mandatory as it is now.
Because if there is a stock market crash, those who "opted out" of SS are going to vote to "opt in" themselves, and then they would get something for nothing and leave others holding the bill. So no, it can't be optional. It must be mandatory as it is now.
Huh? Stock market crash doesn't mean people are going to stop working. Unemployment may go up a little, but if market goes down 80%, we aren't going to have 80% unemployment all of the sudden. So payroll taxes will keep coming in to pay SS benefits. SS payroll tax stream is much more stable than returns from the stock market.
I know this, I know there are ways than going through corporate entities.....im just saying...its usually the people who have gotten themselves into credit card debt calling credit cards the devil.....usally the same people who say we need social security.....well i use credit cards everyday, and pay em off every month...no finance charges....just a growing credit score.... and if used properly they can help your credit rating, above most people in your income bracket. i can also invest my own money for retirement....and dont want nor need socail security....but we cant git rid of it, too many lower class laborers depend on it....it just needs ot be fixed....something needs to be done....and the only way to NOT CUT the bottom dollar that you get out...is private accounts...yeah you may get a smaller check from the govt for SS, but the returns in ur account make up for that.....
at least thats the way i see it working....makes since to me.... but what do i know..
Well if we are going to have any depression like many on this forum predict all goverment programs are at risk, including social security. The great depression had unemployment at 30%.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
Much less risk than the stock market though. When SS gets cancelled because of the economy tanking, you had better have already stocked up on ammo, because you will need it, and not because of SS.
Fingolfin269
Lifer
- Feb 28, 2003
- 17,948
- 34
- 91
Nah, I just hate credit cards because I've seen what they can do to individuals and families. Something in our culture has triggered us to start living beyond our means and credit cards are a way to accomplish this. Go ask your grandparents how many times they borrowed money to buy anything. Then go ask some of your friends if any of them borrowed money to buy a TV. It's kind of sad really.
- Mar 20, 2000
- 102,402
- 8,574
- 126
if a stock market crash is taking you out that much you weren't properly diversified. proper diversification isn't putting all your money into the stock market.
anyway, an 80% crash would probably be from something like, oh, the US government going bankrupt. good luck getting your pay as you go SS then.
Since when were Democrats opposed to getting something for nothing? Most seniors collecting SS over the past 20 years are getting plenty of something (other people's $$) for near nothing - they contributed as little as 1% or less of their own income, and are reaping huge returns. Look at the historic contribution levels for SS; those who got in early paid very little.
This is why I dislike Democrats more than I dislike Republicans. Both parties attempt to bribe voters, the Dems with generous benefits, and the GOP with tax cuts, but at least there's nothing dishonest about attempting to bribe people with their own money. Offering generous government benefits at the expense of others is just inefficient thievery.
SS tax rates have been increased several times since the program's inception, but an individual's benefits are based on a formula that accounts for cumulative contributions, so those who paid in less, at lower rates, get less... making Mursilis' claim more than a little shaky... Yes, they do receive cost of living increases, but the average monthly SS benefit is ~$800- $900 for men, $700 for women. It's not like these folks are living large, at all...
The bit about there being nothing dishonest about bribing people with their own money is dishonest, when you're borrowing money in their name to cover deficits created by such tax loans... which cost money to maintain, currently over $330B/ yr, and climbing fast... with no proposed payoff date, either...
The biggest threat to SS in the midterm is the same thing that threatens the fiscal integrity of the govt in general- tax rate decreases coupled with explosive spending increases, resulting in huge structural deficits and explosive debt acquisition. The answer, from the Whitehouse, anyway, is to just borrow more money to privatize SS... which will only invoke real crisis sooner than later...
The bit about there being nothing dishonest about bribing people with their own money is dishonest, when you're borrowing money in their name to cover deficits created by such tax loans... which cost money to maintain, currently over $330B/ yr, and climbing fast... with no proposed payoff date, either...
The biggest threat to SS in the midterm is the same thing that threatens the fiscal integrity of the govt in general- tax rate decreases coupled with explosive spending increases, resulting in huge structural deficits and explosive debt acquisition. The answer, from the Whitehouse, anyway, is to just borrow more money to privatize SS... which will only invoke real crisis sooner than later...
Just as the democrats answer to future liabilities of SS and medicare is to leave them as they are and raise the payroll tax to 25% by 2042 to cover these liabilities. Those IOUs that are being generated for SS will be paid for by your kids and grandkids.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Who the hell told you you were saving money though SS??? Better buy a clue and start a SEP/401k/roth something. Because they will progressivly either have to cut distro or raise taxes even higher to cover future gens.. BTW. It's a PAYGO plan with no guaranteed disbursement no saving at at all.
It is dishonest to give Americans a "tax cut" when in reality you are just saddling them with more debt to be paid later. The republicans have grown the government by leaps and bounds while they have offered these so called "tax cuts." The republicans are the ones who expanded medicare, which is one of the biggest government programs and a much more urgent problem than social security.
Here's a simple question - do SS payments cease when a person receives back the entire amount of their lifetime contributions (plus a reasonable rate of return)? If the answer is no, some people are receiving other people's money, and my claim isn't shaky at all.
Just for the record, I've always been against deficit spending except in cases of true national emergency; i.e., the existence of the republic itself is being threatened. Otherwise, I consider deficits to be both undemocratic and immoral, as the future generations which must deal with such debt never get a say in its creation. You'll find no post of mine inconsistant with these statements. But I do not think our government's current problem is that it takes in too little $$; rather, it spends way, way too much.
Might as well bring the crisis sooner rather than later . . . Since the population itself is addicted to credit and rampant personal debt and spending, it's hardly a shocker that our government operates in the same fashion, and no one cares. At this point, I've become cynical about the whole fiscal mess, and think a structural change (balanced budget amendment? supermajority of Congress required to authorize any spending? I don't know the perfect answer yet) in our government is the only way our indifference to fiscal irresponsibility can be solved. I have zero faith that either party will address fiscal issues in a responsible manner until that critical point when there are no other realistic options. Having said all that, bring on the crisis!!
Interest on he debt is stable, charrison? You're flirting with delusion- the only reason for the numbers you cite is that the Federal Reserve board knocked the bottom out of interest rates, to historical lows, which are once again climbing... and will continue to do so. No small % of the total debt is held in short term notes. A 1% rise in interest means an additional $10B in maintenance for every $1T rolled over...
And Dems answer isn't to just let the situation fester, at all. the real answer is to rescind all the Bush taxcuts, and all the Bush pork, restore the balance created at the end of the millenium, with projected surpluses paying down the debt, forcing capital out into the investment markets... arriving at the SS fiscal crossover point in good shape, with the cashflow to support our obligations. Without that, the whole thing is just some rather cruel distraction in pursuit of extending the looting spree...
Mursilis- I'm not interested in creating catastrophe, at all, but some factions within the republican party definitely are enamored of it- so long as it's preceded by as much looting as possible, so long as the maximum amount of wealth possible can be transferred into the hands of the top .01% before they pull the rug out from under the rest of us... why starve the beast when you can fatten it up, use it to fatten yourself up, then devour it later on?
And Dems answer isn't to just let the situation fester, at all. the real answer is to rescind all the Bush taxcuts, and all the Bush pork, restore the balance created at the end of the millenium, with projected surpluses paying down the debt, forcing capital out into the investment markets... arriving at the SS fiscal crossover point in good shape, with the cashflow to support our obligations. Without that, the whole thing is just some rather cruel distraction in pursuit of extending the looting spree...
Mursilis- I'm not interested in creating catastrophe, at all, but some factions within the republican party definitely are enamored of it- so long as it's preceded by as much looting as possible, so long as the maximum amount of wealth possible can be transferred into the hands of the top .01% before they pull the rug out from under the rest of us... why starve the beast when you can fatten it up, use it to fatten yourself up, then devour it later on?
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: EndGame
Good Luck...........live/work in Canada/Mexico??? Otherwise, it's gonna happen for the forseeable future......
There are pensions here as well. He's probably going to have to move to Cayman Islands or the Bahama...not sure. When I make my millions, I will research tax evasion further and report back.
Good luck with that.
One thing to keep in mind in your quest is Tax Evasion is the "big house" period. Better off making that mil, reporting it cleanly, and simply telling the feds you aint got the money to pay your tax bill. Fees and penalties and other BS will incur but who gives a rats ass if you're in the caymens for a non-prisonable non-extraditable civil offense.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
That's not true. My grandparents can attest to this. More importantly my dad can who pays for my grandmas retirement home, medcines and will pay for hospice eventually. My grandfathers "nest egg" was a repectable 1.3 million after selling his hardware store back in 86. After three bypasses and death and 20 years of retirement living they chewed though that. They were even depression era peoples. Cheap beyond belief. No travel, No motor homes no nothing really and burnt though it. Life sometimes throws unexpected curves at people not to mention all the disables who usually never paid a dime like blind, down syndrome etc, can't "save" there. So you still need some type of social insurance, saving won't fix all. But I agree, if anything comes from these debates, I hope people come to relise saving in very important.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
I think people should start worrying about medicare/medicaid which is a much bigger problem than SS will ever be.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/bg1804.cfm
President Bush lobbied though the biggest entilement program in 35 years w/o bothering to state how they plan to pay for it. Broke by 2008, not 2042 or whatever SS projections are. Worse, it allows some companies/pensions with already defined and paid for percription plans for thier retirees to opt out and get *everyone* on the dole.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/bg1804.cfm
President Bush lobbied though the biggest entilement program in 35 years w/o bothering to state how they plan to pay for it. Broke by 2008, not 2042 or whatever SS projections are. Worse, it allows some companies/pensions with already defined and paid for percription plans for thier retirees to opt out and get *everyone* on the dole.
From charrison, wrt federal debt-
Which is a non sequiter wrt to the real problem, as I've alleged all along- total debt and its maintenance. Only the tax and spending policies of the late Clinton era have provided any real mechanism to correct it. I have no problem with Keynsian economic theory, properly applied. The flip side of govt spending to stimulate the economy in downturns is that such expenditures must be recouped during good times. If the economy is healthy and improving, as the Right claims, then now is the time to raise taxes to their former level, or beyond.
Also-
Just part of the distraction, a stretching out of the looting scenario, the truth being that such increases don't solve the problem, merely providing false hope. Such increases are entirely inadequate to cope with the spending predelictions of the current Executive and Legislative branches- "Small Government" Republicans running them- remember?
The simple fact that otherwise intelligent and educated individuals believe that such modest increases from dismal lows is a tribute to the effectiveness of the sucker pitch served up by the Bushista machine... rather than an honest indicator of any real improvement...
Picture Uncle Sam as a lapdog of the international financial elite, a relationship typified by the banana republic syndrome, and you'll have an honest idea of where we're being led. The crowning glory being the lifetime appointments of a very rightwing judiciary designed to support the New Reality...
Some of doggie's favorite thing will have to go, however, like SS, doesn't fit the new decor...
Which is a non sequiter wrt to the real problem, as I've alleged all along- total debt and its maintenance. Only the tax and spending policies of the late Clinton era have provided any real mechanism to correct it. I have no problem with Keynsian economic theory, properly applied. The flip side of govt spending to stimulate the economy in downturns is that such expenditures must be recouped during good times. If the economy is healthy and improving, as the Right claims, then now is the time to raise taxes to their former level, or beyond.
Also-
Just part of the distraction, a stretching out of the looting scenario, the truth being that such increases don't solve the problem, merely providing false hope. Such increases are entirely inadequate to cope with the spending predelictions of the current Executive and Legislative branches- "Small Government" Republicans running them- remember?
The simple fact that otherwise intelligent and educated individuals believe that such modest increases from dismal lows is a tribute to the effectiveness of the sucker pitch served up by the Bushista machine... rather than an honest indicator of any real improvement...
Picture Uncle Sam as a lapdog of the international financial elite, a relationship typified by the banana republic syndrome, and you'll have an honest idea of where we're being led. The crowning glory being the lifetime appointments of a very rightwing judiciary designed to support the New Reality...
Some of doggie's favorite thing will have to go, however, like SS, doesn't fit the new decor...
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter