White Evangelicals, This is Why People Are Through With You

[brycejones]

Wow, I feel stupid. I always thought they were protestant.

Jeb converted to Catholicism. He is the only one as far as I know.

 

[Fern]

He's doing a heck of a job of destroying the Republican Party so: Good job, evangelicals!

I don't think they care. I think they'd like a lot of it 'destroyed'. Many don't seem to see much difference between establishment Repubs and many Dems.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Exactly what is it that you think they want "drained" out of DC?

Establishment politicians. Now since all this Russia stuff I think they'd like to see a lot of these career bureaucrats (so called 'deep state') out, well at least high ranking ones.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Well that's just great. They might have told us some time during all those decades of "family values" conservationism where they preached their morality at everyone that it was all quite negotiable after all. Would have saved us a lot of unnecessary conflict.

Shrug. I could surely be wrong but I see it as a 'sea change'. I.e., they couldn't have told you years ago because they didn't anticipate it.

Also, I'm pretty sure they have the opinion that all those prior "family values" politicians (besides Reagan) didn't do shizz.

Fern

 

[IronWing]

41, GHWB, is an episcopalian IIRC. Think I remember hearing how that was a sore spot for other family members.

He dumped the Episcopal Church for the Methodists. He was a born-again type.

 

[woolfe9998]

Shrug. I could surely be wrong but I see it as a 'sea change'. I.e., they couldn't have told you years ago because they didn't anticipate it.

Also, I'm pretty sure they have the opinion that all those prior "family values" politicians (besides Reagan) didn't do shizz.

Fern

They couldn't have "told" us years ago because the story was supposed to be that their convictions were actually real. They were not. Not really. Family values was just something they used to bash people they didn't like. They now realize they can do that better by sicking Trump on us, so who needs family values anymore. Trump is way better ammunition than telling us how "immoral" we all are.

 

[dawheat]

It's funny that they are playing the role of the pharasies in the Bible.

Honestly it's probably for the best that they've given up the facade of moral standing and have outright admitted they are a political faction. Groups with and against them can engage openly without pretending there is anything deeper to it.

I'm more frustrated that the mainstream church hasn't gone beyond gentle chiding. I know folks like Tim Keller are trying to take the long view and stay out of politics but they're being brought down by association.

 

[nickqt]

White evangelicals are Mammon worshipers who worship a Mammon dressed up as Jesus. They even worship the rich, who Mammon has blessed, as Mammonites will do.

 

[Amused]

Hatred is hatred, and hatred will breed hatred. Bigotry like this only continues the cycle. My statement is contingent on being a Christian who has always voted Democrat, among many of my peers, and on being upset as I am grouped together with other people who do not represent me. My reasoning is anecdotal and filled with emotion. Take it or leave it.



Vilifying racism in general would never make one a racist. Vilifying white people who are Christian as all being racist does not make one a racist. A bigot, yes. A hypocrite, yes.

Please point out in the post precisely what is hateful.

Because last time I looked, pointing out hypocrisy, hate and racism is NOT hypocrisy hate and racism.

You're trying a sideways "I know you are but what am I" argument and it's transparent.

BTW, this was written by a white Christian pastor.

 

[pmv]

Is there just one kind of Evangelical?
Are they all conservative?

(Not rhetorical questions, never met any)

 

[Amused]

Is there just one kind of Evangelical?
Are they all conservative?

(Not rhetorical questions, never met any)

Yes. There are evangelicals who are more liberal. But in the US, evangelical is a catchall for fundamentalist, conservative Christians.

 

[dank69]

Establishment politicians. Now since all this Russia stuff I think they'd like to see a lot of these career bureaucrats (so called 'deep state') out, well at least high ranking ones.

Fern

Yes, but what is the end goal?

 

[kage69]

He dumped the Episcopal Church for the Methodists. He was a born-again type.

I believe you are describing Dubya. I am talking about his father, GHWB.

A quick search took me to: https://www.deseretnews.com/article...-teach-us-about-religion-and-family-life.html

"America has already seen two Bush presidents, both of them protestant. George H.W. Bush, Jeb’s father who served as president from 1989 to 1993, was born and raised in an Episcopalian household, a faith he retains to this day. George W., Jeb’s brother who served as president from 2001 to 2009, was raised in his father’s Episcopalian faith but joined the United Methodist Church in 1977. In 1985, George W. was “born again” and has considered himself evangelical ever since."


Not that I care. It's all wishful, Bronze/Iron Age fiction to me.

 

[kage69]

Evangelicalism is a massive spectrum of belief from conservative to liberal from my experience.

Liberal evangelicals? Probably the first time I've ever heard of this concept. How strange for a group that is pretty much a posterchild for strict doctrine/penchant for dogma, served usually with a side of snarky ecumenical denouncement.

As someone who has spent ample time in the Bible Belt, I don't believe you. Help me out here. Link?

 

[IronWing]

Liberal evangelicals? Probably the first time I've ever heard of this concept.

As someone who has spent ample time in the Bible Belt, I don't believe you. Help me out here. Link?

Jimmy Carter was probably the most famous. Evangelicals worked both for and against the civil rights movement. Liberal evangelicals used to be much more common before the conservatives subverted and perverted the seminaries and turned them into ideological cesspools.

 

[Amused]

Jimmy Carter was probably the most famous. Evangelicals worked both for and against the civil rights movement. Liberal evangelicals used to be much more common before the conservatives subverted and perverted the seminaries and turned them into ideological cesspools.

This.

 

[kage69]

Jimmy Carter was probably the most famous. Evangelicals worked both for and against the civil rights movement. Liberal evangelicals used to be much more common before the conservatives subverted and perverted the seminaries and turned them into ideological cesspools.

I thought he parted ways with the Southern Baptists, over women's rights. They got too fundie for him. Am I wrong?

For the sake of argument though, let's say Jimmy is a full blown evangelical. Ok. Who else? We've moved a lot of history the last 40+ years, who else constitutes a noteworthy chunk of this massive group with massive variety?

FWIW, reading about Carter's New Baptist Covenant makes me think he decided to drop the evangelical part. Seems like a focus on helping the needy, as opposed to getting rich off of them like mainstream evangelicals. If he were evangelical, wouldn't he have stayed with the Southern Baptists?

 

[darkswordsman17]

Hell, a lot of cults were basically hippies that wanted some religious underpinnings, but wanted something that was different from the staid church they'd grown up on and had been revolting against. A lot of cults got members by being really groovy and just being generally chill and understanding and wanting to care about people. Jonestown, er, I mean the Peoples Temple itself (which funnily enough, they early on viewed Christianity as being very in line with Communism and Socialism). Of course pretty much all of those ended up with insanity (its almost like there's something about religion that attracts insane people, and the institutions of religion seems to make people kinda crazy).

And yes, plenty of communism/socialism went to hell because they basically transitioned into an pseudo cult or religion by deifying the state and especially leadership.

 

[pmv]

I believe you are describing Dubya. I am talking about his father, GHWB.

A quick search took me to: https://www.deseretnews.com/article...-teach-us-about-religion-and-family-life.html

"America has already seen two Bush presidents, both of them protestant. George H.W. Bush, Jeb’s father who served as president from 1989 to 1993, was born and raised in an Episcopalian household, a faith he retains to this day. George W., Jeb’s brother who served as president from 2001 to 2009, was raised in his father’s Episcopalian faith but joined the United Methodist Church in 1977. In 1985, George W. was “born again” and has considered himself evangelical ever since."


Not that I care. It's all wishful, Bronze/Iron Age fiction to me.

Protestantism is as confusing as the far-left. So many factions!

The methodists I've encountered (mainly Welsh) were all pretty left-wing, at least about everything other than sexuality. One once went into a long rant about the evils of capitalism and US imperialism and the right-ward turn of Blair's Labour, before explaining that the latter was down to the party having been taken over by gays. He might have been a bit of an outlier, but the general point of lett-on-economic-issues, right-on-sexual-issues, seemed common. Muslims are a bit similar, though in my limited experience they tend to be much more pro-capitalism than are Christians.

 

[HomerJS]

Leave it to white evangelicals the Senate would have had Roy Moore. Thank God there were enough black women to bail out Ala and the country.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Please point out in the post precisely what is hateful.

Because last time I looked, pointing out hypocrisy, hate and racism is NOT hypocrisy hate and racism.

You're trying a sideways "I know you are but what am I" argument and it's transparent.

BTW, this was written by a white Christian pastor.

I think it is hateful to vilify an entire group of people based on ideals that do not represent all of those people. I don't believe I ever said anyone was a racist. I said bigot and hypocrite, because vilification and stereotyping seem to be the primary tactics of the Trump administration.

My uncle is a liberal pastor. My other uncle is a conservative pastor. They would be both be considered "Evangelical." I don't think it's fair to condemn them based on a vague categorization.

Liberal evangelicals? Probably the first time I've ever heard of this concept. How strange for a group that is pretty much a posterchild for strict doctrine/penchant for dogma, served usually with a side of snarky ecumenical denouncement.

As someone who has spent ample time in the Bible Belt, I don't believe you. Help me out here. Link?

I come from the northeast and the midwest. I've known a few people from the bible belt area, and most of them are indeed ardent conservatives.

 

[Amused]

I think it is hateful to vilify an entire group of people based on ideals that do not represent all of those people. I don't believe I ever said anyone was a racist. I said bigot and hypocrite, because vilification and stereotyping seem to be the primary tactics of the Trump administration.

My uncle is a liberal pastor. My other uncle is a conservative pastor. They would be both be considered "Evangelical." I don't think it's fair to condemn them based on a vague categorization.



I come from the northeast and the midwest. I've known a few people from the bible belt area, and most of them are indeed ardent conservatives.

First you say one thing then confirm the opposite.

In the US "Evangelical" is automatically assumed to mean conservative evangelical Christians.

And let's just see what the leadership of the American conservative evangelicals are saying.

(looks)

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/franklin-graham/527013/

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/e...r-alleged-dalliance-with-porn-star-2018-01-23

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...-biblical-justification-for-shithole-comment/

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017...ffress-trump-god-supports-bombing-north-korea

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...-trump-against-stormy-daniels-reports-n839496

http://www.newsweek.com/barbara-copeland-donald-trump-evangelical-advisory-board-800296

https://ktfnews.com/kenneth-copeland-direct-line-god-president-trump/

http://time.com/5161349/president-trump-white-evangelical-support-slaveholders/



Yep. On point. They are, to the person, defending and excusing Trump after 8 years of tearing Obama apart with the most ridiculous, outlandish made up shit.

 

[soulcougher73]

41, GHWB, is an episcopalian IIRC. Think I remember hearing how that was a sore spot for other family members.

Catholic lite?

 

[Roger Wilco]

First you say one thing then confirm the opposite.

In the US "Evangelical" is automatically assumed to mean conservative evangelical Christians.

And let's just see what the leadership of the American conservative evangelicals are saying.

(looks)

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/franklin-graham/527013/

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/e...r-alleged-dalliance-with-porn-star-2018-01-23

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...-biblical-justification-for-shithole-comment/

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017...ffress-trump-god-supports-bombing-north-korea

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...-trump-against-stormy-daniels-reports-n839496

http://www.newsweek.com/barbara-copeland-donald-trump-evangelical-advisory-board-800296

https://ktfnews.com/kenneth-copeland-direct-line-god-president-trump/

http://time.com/5161349/president-trump-white-evangelical-support-slaveholders/

Yep. On point. They are, to the person, defending and excusing Trump after 8 years of tearing Obama apart with the most ridiculous, outlandish made up shit.

What exactly did I confirm? Last I checked, automatically assuming things doesn't really mean anything. I merely said that I've known Evangelicals on the left and the right. Things may be different in the bible belt, but they don't represent everyone.

I'm not saying that your allegations are incorrect in a great many cases and in the links you provided. I'm not disagreeing with your anger and disgust in those who used their religion to justify heinous political positions. However, those people do not represent all of Evangelical Christianity.

Putting Evangelicalism in an "automatically assumed" box, defining the beliefs of those in that box, and ultimately blaming the box rather than the individuals you have placed there is rather analogous to the strategies used by those you oppose.

 

[Amused]

What exactly did I confirm? Last I checked, automatically assuming things doesn't really mean anything. I merely said that I've known Evangelicals on the left and the right. Things may be different in the bible belt, but they don't represent everyone.

I'm not saying that your allegations are incorrect in a great many cases and in the links you provided. I'm not disagreeing with your anger and disgust in those who used their religion to justify heinous political positions. However, those people do not represent all of Evangelical Christianity.

Putting Evangelicalism in an "automatically assumed" box, defining the beliefs of those in that box, and ultimately blaming the box rather than the individuals you have placed there is rather analogous to the strategies used by those you oppose.

When Trump was elected he had a near 80% approval rating from white evangelicals. .