Where does the Netanyuhu claim of defenseable borders go?

[Lemon law]

Actually JHHNN has put somewhat the bigger problem into focus, which is water resources.

My research on water stats is that inside the West Bank, Israeli settler are allocated almost infinite water, while Palestinians, because they cannot get Israeli controlled water drilling permits, get almost no water. Leaving Israeli settlers some 300 liters/day per person while Palestinians, get an average of 20-40 liters a day. Well under the WHO recommendation of 100 liters per person minimum. Or to put it another way, some 300,000 West Bank Israeli settlers get 80% of available water while 1.5 million Pales get only 20%.

Which may be why the settler issue may become irrelevant, because a Palestinian government in the West Bank would then control the West Bank water. Because even if such a Palestinian government allocates water fairly, Israeli settlers will get far far far less water than they are used to.

And in a desert like the land of Israel, water is always the delimiting resource.

 

[Jhhnn]

That wiki really shows how good the Arabs have it in Israel. IMO they shouldn't be allowed citizenship there at all, and should only be allowed in the country as laborers, as in Saudi Arabia or the UAE.

But they're citizens of Israel, descendants of non Jews who lived there prior to 1948, who were granted citizenship at the time. It was part and parcel of international recognition of the state of Israel.

According to the usual Israeli propaganda, and to political norms we accept, they should enjoy equal rights & privileges, but they obviously don't.

We didn't accept apartheid and discrimination from S Africa, so why should we accept it from Israel?

 

[Nebor]

But they're citizens of Israel, descendants of non Jews who lived there prior to 1948, who were granted citizenship at the time. It was part and parcel of international recognition of the state of Israel.

According to the usual Israeli propaganda, and to political norms we accept, they should enjoy equal rights & privileges, but they obviously don't.

We didn't accept apartheid and discrimination from S Africa, so why should we accept it from Israel?

Like I said, we've supported far worse people doing far worse things that don't align with our "political norms." Look at what's going on throughout the Middle East. We supported\support a lot of the leadership that's wholesale slaughtering their citizens. At least in Israel's case, they're good people, like us, in charge, in a sea of enemies. Special concessions must be allowed for considering their precarious situation. If the United States lived with the sort of threat Israel does, people would be clamoring for martial law, internment camps for racial\cultural enemies, etc.

Ironically the US didn't come out strongly against Apartheid. There was an arms embargo, but few harsh words were spoken. Israel was actually a much more vocal critic of Apartheid. Kinda funny when you think about it.

IMO Israel's behavior doesn't have to be governed by any sort of human rights, political or social norms. They're in a unique situation and they must defend themselves and the integrity of their society at all costs. They know all too well what happens if they fail to do so.

 

[Tom]

For "some people"? Please explain.

race, religion, sex. one democratic ideal is equal voting rights without regard to race, religion, sex.

So an official religion, or preferential rights of citizenship for a particular religion, are in conflict with democracy.

While I support Israel, in the long run it seems like a basic flaw that isn't sustainable. Like denying women the right to vote in my USA.

In the short term I don't have an answer; maybe there's no choice.

 

[Freshgeardude]

race, religion, sex. one democratic ideal is equal voting rights without regard to race, religion, sex.

So an official religion, or preferential rights of citizenship for a particular religion, are in conflict with democracy.

While I support Israel, in the long run it seems like a basic flaw that isn't sustainable. Like denying women the right to vote in my USA.

In the short term I don't have an answer; maybe there's no choice.

by that logic, were we not a democracy until the 1960s and the civil rights movement?

 

[Lemon law]

by that logic, were we not a democracy until the 1960s and the civil rights movement?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some what of a false FGD argument. Post 1865 there was no immediate arguments of qualificaytions for US citizenship.Negros were granted equal rights.

Later compromises between Republican and democrats allowed the rise of Jim Crow in the South as a white majority returnded to defacto discrimination.

Then in 1960 there was a return to basic principles as Jim Crow died its final death.

Its in no way comprable To Israel, because Israel has never never ever granted Palestinians basic human right. And if the rest of then world does demand equal rights for Palestinians, Israel will never grant Palestinians rights learn it and live it.

 

[Nebor]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some what of a false FGD argument. Post 1865 there was no immediate arguments of qualificaytions for US citizenship.Negros were granted equal rights.

Later compromises between Republican and democrats allowed the rise of Jim Crow in the South as a white majority returnded to defacto discrimination.

Then in 1960 there was a return to basic principles as Jim Crow died its final death.

Its in no way comprable To Israel, because Israel has never never ever granted Palestinians basic human right. And if the rest of then world does demand equal rights for Palestinians, Israel will never grant Palestinians rights learn it and live it.

Uh, you learn it and live it. You're the only one that seems to have a problem with it.

 

[Freshgeardude]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some what of a false FGD argument. Post 1865 there was no immediate arguments of qualificaytions for US citizenship.Negros were granted equal rights.

Later compromises between Republican and democrats allowed the rise of Jim Crow in the South as a white majority returnded to defacto discrimination.

Then in 1960 there was a return to basic principles as Jim Crow died its final death.

Its in no way comprable To Israel, because Israel has never never ever granted Palestinians basic human right. And if the rest of then world does demand equal rights for Palestinians, Israel will never grant Palestinians rights learn it and live it.

"basic human rights"

more circle jerk over the fact arabs living INSIDE israel have equal rights under the law, while those outside of israel do not.

why must you insist on a palestinian state, while demanding israeli citizenship for the same populous?

 

[zhangjohn]

Since Israel and Palestine both like that land, maybe they can form a new country: United States of Palestine. The country includes two states: Israel,Palestine, and one DC: Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the capital.

Each state elect their governor independently. Israel governor will be the country president. Palestine governor will be the vice president.

Israel own the army, response for country defense.

Palestinians and Israel both own police, simply armed, response for internal security.

Any violence toward jews or Palestines is illegal.
Any behava Promote racial discrimination is illegal, whether it in the name of religion, or other name.

20 years tax-free for the original Palestinians, another 20 years 50% tax.

Israel will control the country, they will give nominal goverment position to lestinians, and certain autonomy right to Palestinians, and give more finacial compensation to Palestinians.

Control the media is more important than control the land. If Israel can control their media, they should can change Palestinians's mind.

 

[Lemon law]

Uh, you learn it and live it. You're the only one that seems to have a problem with it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While I am not the only one with a problem with it, point granted Nebor if you want to be a total pig, you can say you have no problem with it. Just don't be surprised when the Israeli argument unravels as we get closer to 9/2011.

 

[Nebor]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While I am not the only one with a problem with it, point granted Nebor if you want to be a total pig, you can say you have no problem with it. Just don't be surprised when the Israeli argument unravels as we get closer to 9/2011.

As always in P&N, I'm totally willing to put my money where my mouth is. What's the bet?

 

[Freshgeardude]

Since Israel and Palestine both like that land, maybe they can form a new country: United States of Palestine. The country includes two states: Israel,Palestine, and one DC: Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the capital.

Each state elect their governor independently. Israel governor will be the country president. Palestine governor will be the vice president.

Israel own the army, response for country defense.

Palestinians and Israel both own police, simply armed, response for internal security.

Any violence toward jews or Palestines is illegal.
Any behava Promote racial discrimination is illegal, whether it in the name of religion, or other name.

20 years tax-free for the original Palestinians, another 20 years 50% tax.

Israel will control the country, they will give nominal goverment position to lestinians, and certain autonomy right to Palestinians, and give more finacial compensation to Palestinians.

Control the media is more important than control the land. If Israel can control their media, they should can change Palestinians's mind.

its a unique idea,


and im not sure if you are being serious but it wont work out with the Pres/VP


there would be a circle jerk of policy conflicts just like John Adams/ Tomas Jefferson administration.

 

[dakU7]

Since Israel and Palestine both like that land, maybe they can form a new country: United States of Palestine. The country includes two states: Israel,Palestine, and one DC: Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the capital.

Each state elect their governor independently. Israel governor will be the country president. Palestine governor will be the vice president.

Israel own the army, response for country defense.

Palestinians and Israel both own police, simply armed, response for internal security.

Any violence toward jews or Palestines is illegal.
Any behava Promote racial discrimination is illegal, whether it in the name of religion, or other name.

20 years tax-free for the original Palestinians, another 20 years 50% tax.

Israel will control the country, they will give nominal goverment position to lestinians, and certain autonomy right to Palestinians, and give more finacial compensation to Palestinians.

Control the media is more important than control the land. If Israel can control their media, they should can change Palestinians's mind.

It's a nice idea, but Israel is and will always stay a Jewish state.

 

[Zebo]

A lot of Americans feel we have a religious\moral duty to support Israel. I see them as an island of sanity in a sea of dark age religious fanatics. Before we had our own wars against Islam, we had the Israelis to test out our newest weapons in combat. And as our wars come to an end around 2014, Israel's role as a combat weapon systems tester will become important again.

We've supported lots of shady\non-democratic governments in the past that frankly did many more horrible things than Israel ever has. At least with Israel, we're supporting people like us.

This. Plus we'll need a base to take all the oil fields after jihadi democracies there cut us off.

There is also the fact that there will be another, the final, holocaust should Muslims get upper hand. As if anyone has any doubt the way religious minorities are treated in Muslim lands. And Jews are most hated. Essentially what the left wingers of the world are pimping with their Palestinian tolerance is massive intolerance to come.

OTOH - sometimes I just say fuck it. I'm not Jewish and don't like fundis that much either. Let Israel fall their Samson option saves us a lot of trouble in the future and we get free fields of the spice.

 

[Medu]

This. Plus we'll need a base to take all the oil fields after jihadi democracies there cut us off.

There is also the fact that there will be another, the final, holocaust should Muslims get upper hand. As if anyone has any doubt the way religious minorities are treated in Muslim lands. And Jews are most hated. Essentially what the left wingers of the world are pimping with their Palestinian tolerance is massive intolerance to come.

Wow!
So America should stay close to Israel so that they can test new US weapons in combat situations and also to give ye a base to launch an attack on the middle east and take over their oil fields if needed- and ye wonder why the much of the Middle-East hates America.
Also it would be fairly difficult to have a 'final' holocaust by invading Israel as there are more Jews in the US than in Israel.

 

[Throckmorton]

That wiki really shows how good the Arabs have it in Israel. IMO they shouldn't be allowed citizenship there at all, and should only be allowed in the country as laborers, as in Saudi Arabia or the UAE.

Are you for real?

 

[Throckmorton]

"basic human rights"

more circle jerk over the fact arabs living INSIDE israel have equal rights under the law, while those outside of israel do not.

why must you insist on a palestinian state, while demanding israeli citizenship for the same populous?

I don't see how this is controversial. Native Americans have citizenship in the USA, even though we stole their land to form our country

 

[Zebo]

Wow!
So America should stay close to Israel so that they can test new US weapons in combat situations and also to give ye a base to launch an attack on the middle east and take over their oil fields if needed- and ye wonder why the much of the Middle-East hates America.
Also it would be fairly difficult to have a 'final' holocaust by invading Israel as there are more Jews in the US than in Israel.

Hey they attacked first we should hate them. We found their wealth, built it up for them, made a market where they could sell it and that's the thanks we get after making them rich? Endless terrorism over 1/800th of landmass of middle east. Ridiculous to say we or Israel are aggressors.

Anyway yeah, resource wars are a done deal as reserves are depleting at 6% a year according to IEA. Our and everyone else's modern economy is a derivative of oil. Oil is everything. W/O oil think life 1870.

 

[Zebo]

I don't see how this is controversial. Native Americans have citizenship in the USA, even though we stole their land to form our country

Interesting you mention NA. We gave NA parts of their land back called reservations. Think of Israel as back on the reservation. It's a hell of a lot smaller than where they used to roam before being run out/wiped out/force-ably converted. But at least it's something.

I think they should ask for Media and other places they were ran out of back if Pals can come back. That would bristle a few hairs don't you think.

 

[Zebo]

The problem with the Zebo ideology is in simply in the past failures of US stupidity. We supported a Baptista and instead get a Cuban Castro, we supported the Shah of Iran and get the Mullahs of Iran. We tried to oppose the historical force of Vietnamese independence and got our ass kicked instead. And Zebo has to be the dumb ass of the new century if the USA thinks he can get anywhere by calling 1.4 billion Muslims as dumb asses opposed to world peace.

Especially when its the USA that is trying and failing to impose their will in Iraq and Afghanistan at the same time the USA is acting like arrogant idiots.

We have to therefor ask, what does Zebo fail to understand about counter productive US foreign policy?

What does numbers have to do with anything? I'm often in the minority. So was Copernicus while Christian fundis in Europe wasted him didn't mean he was wrong. ( he was finally vindicated by the Church last year with a proper funeral, hey they're finally open to the idea that the sun is at the center of the solar system...making progress..any day now they'll catch up with ancient Greece) And if you think we are using even 1/10th of our military might in those skirmishes you call wars you're compete fool. Our troubles would be over in weeks in total war. Again numbers mean nothing.

If you want world peace (a delusion but I'll entertain it) you have to stand up for values of peace which you utterly fail to do in every Israeli hate thread. You side instead with a retrograde people following a barbaric violent faith who absolutely will not stop until Israel is wiped off the map. And that's just the beginning, the "little jihad", world wide ummah is the goal.

 

[boomerang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2hZ6SlSqq0&feature=player_embedded

 

[Zebo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2hZ6SlSqq0&feature=player_embedded

Excellent video. Explains it well.

Love this comment.. Can't fool those soldiers who come face to face with PC "mom and dads just like us" sunshine blown up their asses.

"I served in Desert Storm. When the Enduring Freedom War broke out, I re-enlisted. I served 3 tours in Iraq and 1 tour in Afghanistan. You really don't understand these people until you get up close and personal with them. These people don't know what peace is. These people, even after peace, will continue to fight and murder each other. These people put a new meaning to the word "extreme". They would rather kill their own children then give in to peace.

 

[boomerang]

Excellent video. Explains it well.

Love this comment.. Can't fool those soldiers who come face to face with PC "mom and dads just like us" sunshine blown up their asses.

"I served in Desert Storm. When the Enduring Freedom War broke out, I re-enlisted. I served 3 tours in Iraq and 1 tour in Afghanistan. You really don't understand these people until you get up close and personal with them. These people don't know what peace is. These people, even after peace, will continue to fight and murder each other. These people put a new meaning to the word "extreme". They would rather kill their own children then give in to peace.

Yeah, I learned a lot from it. I'll readily admit I'm far from well versed in international issues. I found it interesting to see how the natural borders were so essential. It makes it easy to understand how returning to the 1967 borders would essentially be suicide for the state of Israel. Of course that is the intention.

 

[Zebo]

Yeah the problem is the Arab's were smart. Instead of attacking them directly with huge armies like in the past and little Israel gaining worlds sympathy, The Arabs come from everywhere, Shock troops called Palestinians, to act as this poor repressed people who Israel was attacking and starving etc. This redefining the conflict for Western consumption never changed it. It's still all Arab/Muslim states against Israel, all support the shock troops materially with weapons and money for the martyrs who die in the war. The so-called Palestinians have gained sympathy from the West due to our underdog worship and idiocy in basic facts about their origin and their purpose. And will probably succeed in getting Israel in the international dog house. Will they yield? Hard to say.

 

[Abwx]

I'll readily admit I'm far from well versed in international issues. .

Seems that you filled this void thanks to zionist organisations
such as AIPAC....

Now you re fully qualified to have fruitfull exchange with white
supremacists that hide their racism behind hollow principles..

Zebo fully fits the description, no wonder that you re mutually
"educating" yourselves successfully..