Where does the Netanyuhu claim of defenseable borders go?

[Karl Agathon]

Israel is the bully because it has more guns and bombs. But keep it up and sooner or later they'll be nuked.

and they will nuke right back.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Israel is the bully because it has more guns and bombs. But keep it up and sooner or later they'll be nuked.

Out of the entire arab world? no way


but they are the only ones with nukes (minus pakistan) which puts them up to defend themselves.

 

[Freshgeardude]

To me it seems quite absurd, that what ever happens in any future Israeli peace plan there is zero hope that Israel will ever ever have secure borders.

So why Is Netanyuhu sob crying that the 1967 borders of Israeli are indefinable? The 1948 Israeli borders are indefensible, the 1967 borders are indefeasible, even the present defacto Israeli control borders of Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan heights, leads to the conclusion Israel will never have secure Borders.

Maybe massive countries like the Soviet Union can claim any invader must fight a giant war of attrition, but Israel as a postage stamp country can never make such a Bozo Netanyuhu claim that their 1967 borders are any justification for anything.

When a shoulder fired "fire-and-forget" missle, or a SAM can be launched from the border and hit the major international airport (including commerical jets), then that makes a border indefensible.


and history has shown (hamas in gaza) that once they gain the opportunity, they will start firing those rockets


when you understand that, youll understand why 1967 borders will never happen

 

[CPA]

Or they can separate themselves from the Palestinians and have two states.
One state or two is their call, but they can't have it both ways.
As far as Muslim states being worse, I don't disagree, but that doesn't excuse Israel's position.

Why, Israel won, they don't have to give back shit.

 

[Lemon law]

When a shoulder fired "fire-and-forget" missle, or a SAM can be launched from the border and hit the major international airport (including commerical jets), then that makes a border indefensible.


and history has shown (hamas in gaza) that once they gain the opportunity, they will start firing those rockets


when you understand that, youll understand why 1967 borders will never happen

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fresh Gear Dude has only made 2 bad points. And neither of them is valid.

1. The range of a rocket is relative. Some rockets fly less than a mile, the current low tech average may be more like 60, but there are already missiles in the mid-east region that can range up to a thousand miles. And in the case of the USA v Russia and vice versa
both side have inter continental missiles that can hit any spot on the planet and deliver a thermo nuclear payload. Is that an argument to wipe out either the US or the Russians because the entire planet is not big enough for the both of us. And instead of demanding bigger borders, it forces the US and Russian to behave more fairly. ----------------------
A fairness constrain Israel somehow thinks its immune to.

2. Hamas as a group has never existed outside the Israeli concentration camp called Gaza.
Therefore we have no history to compare, as we ask what Hamas had the ability to control their own destiny on their own land. The most comparable analogy might be Jewish terrorism directed against the British when they administered the Palestinian Mandate. After Jewish freedom, most of the former terrorist became productive citizens.


3. And at the end of all those usual argument is the glaring disparity is the implicit assumption followed by a demand. After all, if we assume Israelis to have human rights, some of the bigger than 1967 borders make some superficial sense, until we turn the coin over and realize Palestinians have equal human rights too. So what Israel is demanding is everything for Israel and nothing for Palestinians.

 

[JEDIYoda]

when you understand that, youll understand why 1967 borders will never happen

Exactly true!!!

 

[dakU7]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fresh Gear Dude has only made 2 bad points. And neither of them is valid.

1. The range of a rocket is relative. Some rockets fly less than a mile, the current low tech average may be more like 60, but there are already missiles in the mid-east region that can range up to a thousand miles. And in the case of the USA v Russia and vice versa
both side have inter continental missiles that can hit any spot on the planet and deliver a thermo nuclear payload. Is that an argument to wipe out either the US or the Russians because the entire planet is not big enough for the both of us. And instead of demanding bigger borders, it forces the US and Russian to behave more fairly. ----------------------
A fairness constrain Israel somehow thinks its immune to.

Huge difference between having long-range missiles in your disposal, between actually firing them. One can cause each side to behave fairly, while once you've pulled the trigger, you can't.

 

[Lemon law]

As we have the pro Israeli fan clubbers singing in their choir, "Originally Posted by Freshgeardude View Post
when you understand that, youll understand why 1967 borders will never happen
Exactly true!!! "

But when put to a world majority consensus vote, six million Israeli yes votes is nothing compared to the nay votes of the world's multi-billions.

So all I can say, is that we all will find out the end outcome as we daily move closer to a 9/2011 decision that is probable to establish and define the borders of a Palestinian State.----as Netanyuhu may be left in astonished dis-belief and flapping his gums like a fish out of water when the borders drawn are basic 1967 borders. But by then, I doubt Netanyuhu will still be Israeli PM. As has been pointed out in the past, Netanyuhu's political coalition will not allow Netanyuhu to be a rational peace partner, at exactly the same time Israel needs rational leadership as the road to 9/2011 grows ever closer. As Netanyuhu's saying he supports a Palestinian State and his actual deeds, exposes a growing gap too wide to be humanly possible for Netanyuhu to keep trying to straddle. As a rapidly growing Number of Israeli Jews are distancing themselves from Netanyuhu.

Even a US veto may not stop a Palestinian State in the general assembly.

 

[Freshgeardude]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fresh Gear Dude has only made 2 bad points. And neither of them is valid.

1. The range of a rocket is relative. Some rockets fly less than a mile, the current low tech average may be more like 60, but there are already missiles in the mid-east region that can range up to a thousand miles. And in the case of the USA v Russia and vice versa
both side have inter continental missiles that can hit any spot on the planet and deliver a thermo nuclear payload. Is that an argument to wipe out either the US or the Russians because the entire planet is not big enough for the both of us. And instead of demanding bigger borders, it forces the US and Russian to behave more fairly. ----------------------
A fairness constrain Israel somehow thinks its immune to.

Wait, when did I include ICBMs??

I am talking about shoulder fired rockets, easily to smuggle because of its relatively smaller size.

and to say they wont attack is bullshit.

just look, less than 2 months ago,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_school_bus_attack

hamas fired a rocket at a SCHOOL BUS. killing a 16 year old boy.

the rocket used, for example, as stated on wikipedia, says it has an operating range of 100-5500m

5.5km -> 3.417 miles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kornet

This is a weapon smuggled in EVEN WHILE israel has a blockade.

what kind of weapon do you think will get in without one?


2. Hamas as a group has never existed outside the Israeli concentration camp called Gaza.

Big lie.

Here is why.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/middleeast/03hamas.html

Relations between the Palestinian group Hamas, which is based in the Syrian capital, Damascus, and the Syrian authorities have been strained in recent weeks, mostly as a result of the antigovernment uprising there, with reports growing that Hamas is looking for another home.

More LL bullshit being spewed

Therefore we have no history to compare, as we ask what Hamas had the ability to control their own destiny on their own land. The most comparable analogy might be Jewish terrorism directed against the British when they administered the Palestinian Mandate. After Jewish freedom, most of the former terrorist became productive citizens.

Well lets see here,

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/03/12/us-palestinians-qaeda-idUSL1229777020070312

The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas rejected on Monday criticism by al Qaeda's second-in-command and said it was still committed to Israel's destruction despite a power-sharing deal with the Fatah faction.

I think we know very well what would happen if Hamas had it their way.

3. And at the end of all those usual argument is the glaring disparity is the implicit assumption followed by a demand. After all, if we assume Israelis to have human rights, some of the bigger than 1967 borders make some superficial sense, until we turn the coin over and realize Palestinians have equal human rights too. So what Israel is demanding is everything for Israel and nothing for Palestinians.

and yet again, those living in israel have full equal rights. those outside israel do not. Israel is not responsible for those outside its country. you claim the west bank and gaza for a palestinian state, yet you want israel to give them israeli rights

only a fool could be so blind to such obviousness

 

[Lemon law]

To start out with FGD, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the Golan heights are not recognized as Israeli property by anyone including the United States. At best they carry the label of disputed territories.

But the real unmentioned danger is the Obama flirtation of recognizing Israel as a theocratic Jewish State. Which will ultimately give Israel the right and obligation of deporting all its current Arab Palestinian citizens exactly as A. Lieberman advocates. Meanwhile Israel hopes both Jordan and Egypt with honor their previous Israeli peace treaties signed when Israel was only a secular State. And recognizing Israel as a theocratic State will be a deal killer for almost everyone in the world.

And as I now read world opinions, the consensus is the Abbas and Palestinian advocates are holding back on saying much of anything because they feel Netanyuhu is doing a fine job of discrediting himself. As for Obama, I imagine he is catching hell from many of our US allies.

As the time ticks down to 9/2011. And I can only say, if we do not get that Palestinian State around 9/2011, the pressure will be even stronger in 2012.

If you want, I can post links to Haaretz and Jpost, from officials ranging from Barack to Livini, who are calling for Netanyuhu's resignation. Because most of Israelis now realize Netanyuhu serves only crazed settler parties of no middle ground.

And when there is no middle ground, Israel is likely to find itself in binding third part arbitration as the only remaining alternative. Israel does not recognize Hamas and Hamas does not recognize Israel, all hail to the power of reality self denial. But a Palestinian State must recognize the right of Israel to exist and Israel will have to recognize the rights of a Palestinian State, isn't that what a peace process is about?
As for Israeli settlements in the West Bank, they knew the risks, they may be under Palestinian sovereignty. And why should they be rewarded for bad behavior? Israel knew from day one, 44 years ago, they were settling on land Israel could never claim under the terms of the UN charter.

 

[Freshgeardude]

To start out with FGD, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the Golan heights are not recognized as Israeli property by anyone including the United States. At best they carry the label of disputed territories.

Lmao. still at this again.

Syria doesnt bother with the golan. they know they wont ever have it returned, unless "land for peace" strikes again, as it did with egypt.

But the real unmentioned danger is the Obama flirtation of recognizing Israel as a theocratic Jewish State. Which will ultimately give Israel the right and obligation of deporting all its current Arab Palestinian citizens exactly as A. Lieberman advocates. Meanwhile Israel hopes both Jordan and Egypt with honor their previous Israeli peace treaties signed when Israel was only a secular State. And recognizing Israel as a theocratic State will be a deal killer for almost everyone in the world.

And as I now read world opinions, the consensus is the Abbas and Palestinian advocates are holding back on saying much of anything because they feel Netanyuhu is doing a fine job of discrediting himself. As for Obama, I imagine he is catching hell from many of our US allies.

As the time ticks down to 9/2011. And I can only say, if we do not get that Palestinian State around 9/2011, the pressure will be even stronger in 2012.

The US, EU, and the Quartet, have all stated Hamas being in the new government is bad news for the palestinians.

Israel wont bind to any agreements made with a group who was created solely to destroy israel

If you want, I can post links to Haaretz and Jpost, from officials ranging from Barack to Livini, who are calling for Netanyuhu's resignation. Because most of Israelis now realize Netanyuhu serves only crazed settler parties of no middle ground.


Barack Obama calls for Netanyahu's resignation?

Livini is no surprise, she is the from the opposing party. Of course she wants him to resign.

And when there is no middle ground, Israel is likely to find itself in binding third part arbitration as the only remaining alternative. Israel does not recognize Hamas and Hamas does not recognize Israel, all hail to the power of reality self denial. But a Palestinian State must recognize the right of Israel to exist and Israel will have to recognize the rights of a Palestinian State, isn't that what a peace process is about?

Israel has no problem recognizing a palestinian state as long as a terrorist organization, brought up on the idea, and continuing that idea till today, to destroy israel, does not rule.

As for Israeli settlements in the West Bank, they knew the risks, they may be under Palestinian sovereignty. And why should they be rewarded for bad behavior? Israel knew from day one, 44 years ago, they were settling on land Israel could never claim under the terms of the UN charter.


Yet the entire arab world was won through conquest of war, yet no one bickers at their war-gotten gains.

:\

 

[dakU7]

Barack Obama calls for Netanyahu's resignation?

Livini is no surprise, she is the from the opposing party. Of course she wants him to resign.

Exactly. Makes no sense.
Besides, Haaretz and Jpost are well known anti-Likud newspapers.

 

[EagleKeeper]

LL is backing away from his declaration of 9/2011 being a Palestinian state.

His Sept "deadline" was based on a statement by a naive Obama thinking that the Palestinians would actually come to the table a year ago and were serious about peace.

Now he has realized that they are not going to show (again); but are trying for an end around, again playing the sympathy card.


Looking forward to Oct when another LL prediction is flat and another good egg is waster

 

[Lemon law]

As I mentioned, maybe its time to start posting Israeli opinion from Jewish opinionm sources.

Try this one first, failing that I have so many more.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...s-on-course-to-become-a-pariah-state-1.362923

 

[dakU7]

As I mentioned, maybe its time to start posting Israeli opinion from Jewish opinionm sources.

Try this one first, failing that I have so many more.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...s-on-course-to-become-a-pariah-state-1.362923

As an Israeli, I can tell you nobody reads that garbage. Jewish opinion sources? More like left-wingers opinion only.
You can go ahead and visit Ynet or NRG, and read for yourself the thousands of positive comments readers are giving to Bibi after his speech.

 

[Nebor]

Does anyone even read what Lemon Law posts? A constant stream of inane anti-Israeli propaganda.

Most Americans stands with Israel. A large chunk of Americans feel they have a religious duty to stand with Israel. They could be blanketing Gaza's orphanages with nerve gas and I wouldn't bat an eye. Though it'd be entertaining to see LL go nuts over it.

 

[Lemon law]

As an Israeli, I can tell you nobody reads that garbage. Jewish opinion sources? More like left-wingers opinion only.
You can go ahead and visit Ynet or NRG, and read for yourself the thousands of positive comments readers are giving to Bibi after his speech.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And therein is the daku7 delusion, the point is and remains, even if a majority of Israeli Jews are united behind Bozo Netanyuhu, the huge bulk of the world's 7 billion people have a wee bit more voting power than maybe a mere 4 million Israeli Jews. Not to mention some 280 Million Arabs who Israel insists on perpetually alienating.

Just losing Jordon and Egypt as Israeli embargo partners implies that that the only winner will be anti-Israeli terrorists groups gaining rockets tipped with Chemical and biological weapons. And if they are smart, they will attack Israel from the Mediterranean Sea.

The Israeli myth is that the issues will ever go away,

Because only a just mid-east peace will solve the issues.

 

[dakU7]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And therein is the daku7 delusion, the point is and remains, even if a majority of Israeli Jews are united behind Bozo Netanyuhu, the huge bulk of the world's 7 billion people have a wee bit more voting power than maybe a mere 4 million Israeli Jews. Not to mention some 280 Million Arabs who Israel insists on perpetually alienating.

Up until that post I thought u were some what rational, someone who can manage a simple discussion. Apparently you're not.
You're not even worth discussing with. Welcome to my first ignore on AT.

 

[Nebor]

Up until that post I thought u were some what rational, someone who can manage a simple discussion. Apparently you're not.
You're not even worth discussing with. Welcome to my first ignore on AT.

Good choice. :thumbsup:

 

[Karl Agathon]

it seems to be very fashionable to hate Jewish people in left wing circles these days. Escpecially in left wing academia and elitist circles. Then again, todays "progressive" is certainly not very related to a classic liberal, even 20 years ago. Hell, just go to left leaning sites like Huffington Post and Daily Kos and you might think you're actually visiting Stormfront when you read through many of the comments there about Jews and Israel.

 

[Lemon law]

Well go ahead ignore me, its no skin off of my butt, we will see how things turn out. Maybe past US President like LBJ and Nixon put their all their eggs in the Israeli basket, but they are not now regarded today as anything but past USA dumb shit idiots with no vision.

But in the US foreign policy commodity, the consensus is growing past denial that Israel is now a net US liability. As the current Obama position buys the US no friends and only enemies on all sides. Talk about a lose lose American position.

 

[Nebor]

Well go ahead ignore me, its no skin off of my butt, we will see how things turn out. Maybe past US President like LBJ and Nixon put their all their eggs in the Israeli basket, but they are not now regarded today as anything but past USA dumb shit idiots with no vision.

But in the US foreign policy commodity, the consensus is growing past denial that Israel is now a net US liability. As the current Obama position buys the US no friends and only enemies on all sides. Talk about a lose lose American position.

America has to take a lot of losses in her duty to protect Israel. It's the way it's always been and the way it'll always be.

 

[Jhhnn]

it seems to be very fashionable to hate Jewish people in left wing circles these days. Escpecially in left wing academia and elitist circles. Then again, todays "progressive" is certainly not very related to a classic liberal, even 20 years ago. Hell, just go to left leaning sites like Huffington Post and Daily Kos and you might think you're actually visiting Stormfront when you read through many of the comments there about Jews and Israel.

There's a difference between Jews and Israel, something that Zionists always attempt to obfuscate when the argument gets tough. Opposing the policies of the state of Israel and being anti-semitic are *not* the same thing, no matter how often that tired old lie gets trotted out.

Unless, of course, you're willing to say that non-jewish Israeli citizens aren't really Israelis at all... that the idea of Israel as a democratic secular state is just a deliberate illusion...

Can't have it both ways.

 

[Zebo]

it seems to be very fashionable to hate Jewish people in left wing circles these days. Escpecially in left wing academia and elitist circles. Then again, todays "progressive" is certainly not very related to a classic liberal, even 20 years ago. Hell, just go to left leaning sites like Huffington Post and Daily Kos and you might think you're actually visiting Stormfront when you read through many of the comments there about Jews and Israel.

Nah I don't think it's that. For many in the current left multiculturalism is their only creed and they so tolerant that we tolerate the intolerant. Virtues have become harmful vices. West also has a bad case of underdog worship vs supporting what's right. West also fails to see Islam for the totalitarian violent immutable uncompromising ideology it is. Read Christopher Hitchens, he's as left as you can get but has very different opinions than leftists in these forums.

 

[Nebor]

that the idea of Israel as a democratic secular state is just a deliberate illusion...

It's not meant to be. It's meant to be a Jewish state that puts Jewish needs first.