OrByte
Diamond Member
- Jul 21, 2000
- 9,302
- 144
- 106
Originally posted by: EXman
We are not being as barbaric as they are... last time I'm saying this.
You cannot say waterboarding a terrorist is the same as beheading an innocent or cutting someones harm off. You all think it is the same it aint.
Have a tortured day
I can say waterboarding is torture. And only dumb people think that torture works.
and I didn't equate waterboarding to beheading. beheading is murder. Torture =/= murder.
try to keep up
EXman
You seem to have an angry attitude that guides your thinking.
Since WWII, our government has professed the U.S. to be the "leader of the free world". The majority of the American people have always supported that position.
We have also assumed that we occupy the moral high ground. We tell other countries and peoples that they should envy and emulate us. They should want our form of government, our capitalistic economy, our judicial system with its well defined human rights. We are always the "good guys", and people who oppose us or deny basic human rights are evil.
You would tell the world that our bind to our principles is weak and only a fair weather commitment. You would have us declare that when we are angry, we will ignore the very rules that we claim make us a great nation.
Sorry, but rejecting the idea that if others act like assholes, then we will too, is hardly what I would call "pussification".
Do you abandon your own integrity and honor so easily when you are angry and afraid? If so, then I would not want to associate with you.
You seem to have an angry attitude that guides your thinking.
Since WWII, our government has professed the U.S. to be the "leader of the free world". The majority of the American people have always supported that position.
We have also assumed that we occupy the moral high ground. We tell other countries and peoples that they should envy and emulate us. They should want our form of government, our capitalistic economy, our judicial system with its well defined human rights. We are always the "good guys", and people who oppose us or deny basic human rights are evil.
You would tell the world that our bind to our principles is weak and only a fair weather commitment. You would have us declare that when we are angry, we will ignore the very rules that we claim make us a great nation.
Sorry, but rejecting the idea that if others act like assholes, then we will too, is hardly what I would call "pussification".
Do you abandon your own integrity and honor so easily when you are angry and afraid? If so, then I would not want to associate with you.
What is the aim of terrorists?
Is not their intent to destroy us with fear because they can't destroy us with weapons?
So what can fear destroy since it can't defeat our weapons?
What is the greatest strength we can have?
Isn't it our moral superiority?
Isn't it terror that repels the human soul and spirit. Isn't it superior to be confident, happy and free, to love under just laws, compassion, and liberality?
What does the human soul long for and what does the terrorist seek?
Isn't his aim to make you as sick, as willing to use violence, as hateful as he.
Isn't his job to bring you into his gutter where he can defeat you with his greater, more profound and developed mental illness?
I think his aim and his real goal is to turn you into him, to drive your self hate to greater and greater levels so that you too will help him destroy the world, so that you too will help him to end his infinite inner agony and suffering with death.
I do not think the way to fight the profoundly mentally disfigured and sick is to beat them at their own game. Hope and love is the remedy for terror, hope and love born out of justice compassion and freedom.
To be a soldier of light is to be, dare I say it, a pussy. You have to be the very thing the terrorist fears. You have to be weak and unprotected open joyous and free. You have to be what frightens him to death, and what, under all his mental illness, he used to have as a child and not so desperately longs for, but which he is now too sick to understand.
And don't forget that a pussy has claws and teeth and can go from a purr to attack is a split sec.
Victory lies with the light of the soul. We all have one. We just need the strength to find it.
Is not their intent to destroy us with fear because they can't destroy us with weapons?
So what can fear destroy since it can't defeat our weapons?
What is the greatest strength we can have?
Isn't it our moral superiority?
Isn't it terror that repels the human soul and spirit. Isn't it superior to be confident, happy and free, to love under just laws, compassion, and liberality?
What does the human soul long for and what does the terrorist seek?
Isn't his aim to make you as sick, as willing to use violence, as hateful as he.
Isn't his job to bring you into his gutter where he can defeat you with his greater, more profound and developed mental illness?
I think his aim and his real goal is to turn you into him, to drive your self hate to greater and greater levels so that you too will help him destroy the world, so that you too will help him to end his infinite inner agony and suffering with death.
I do not think the way to fight the profoundly mentally disfigured and sick is to beat them at their own game. Hope and love is the remedy for terror, hope and love born out of justice compassion and freedom.
To be a soldier of light is to be, dare I say it, a pussy. You have to be the very thing the terrorist fears. You have to be weak and unprotected open joyous and free. You have to be what frightens him to death, and what, under all his mental illness, he used to have as a child and not so desperately longs for, but which he is now too sick to understand.
And don't forget that a pussy has claws and teeth and can go from a purr to attack is a split sec.
Victory lies with the light of the soul. We all have one. We just need the strength to find it.
Originally posted by: EXman
We are not being as barbaric as they are... last time I'm saying this.
You cannot say waterboarding a terrorist is the same as beheading an innocent or cutting someones harm off. You all think it is the same it aint.
Have a tortured day
Blah, blah...who cares which "form" is worse, you are argueing semantics..
I love it how American popular culture promotes the myth of the captured American soldier, and his strength as he withstands torture (Syriana, Three Kings are two very relevant examples that come to mind) and refuses to give the slightest bit of information despite being under the most unregulated, horrible torture imaginable.
Yet, when we capture an Islamic terrorist, who is painted by out media as being nearly psychotically devoted to the destruction of all infidels and is just itching to willfully commit suicide in the name of the cause, they act as if he would just instantly fold under "simulated drowning"...laughable...
The ticking time-bomb scenario is a smoke screen. In real life situations, if there are enough specifics available to know that the person in custody is CERTAIN to have the specific information needed for immediate action, it is likely there already is enough specifics for immediate action.
With pre-emptive torture, it's like data mining, collect a bunch of guys hopefully correctly identified as bad guys, then torture them with the hope one of them will spill some useful piece of information.
After all, torturing is an act of desperation (and depravity). Far better for interrogators to reveal little about their motivations in the interest of trying to elicit from their suspect his motivations. So, from the options valuation model, state-sponsored torture is unlikely to yield the results necessary to stop the ticking time bomb.
thraashman
Lifer
- Apr 10, 2000
- 11,066
- 1,468
- 126
Originally posted by: EXman
The silent majority would like to let you know if it is them or us? We choose us.
THIS >>NSFW<< is what we are up against.
Personally I'd take that simulated torture. :beer: Beer be better though.
Picture of AQ torture chamber and a tortured Iraqi Pic
Pic of tools found in AQ torture chamber. PIC
What those tools did to a AQ Kidnap victom Pic
So what you're basically saying is that because someone else is a serial killer and brutally kills 50 people, that for you to rob and rape one woman is ok because it's not as bad?
And before you try to defend yourself, realize that I'm absolutely right in my assessment of what you just said. You think that just cause someone does something horrible, you're justified in doing something horrible that's just not as bad. That, makes you a hypocrtical asshole if you didn't realize. It's not something anyone I know strives to be.
thraashman
Lifer
- Apr 10, 2000
- 11,066
- 1,468
- 126
Am I the only one that wonders why Neocons hate America so much? They're the ones that want to abandon everything we've ever stood for in the face of a little fear. I love this country, or rather I love what this country used to be and is supposed to be, but not what it's becoming under neocon control. Personally that's what I call a patriot, and intentionally destroying the ideals of a nation and thus destroying the nation itself is what I'd call a traitor. To me that makes every single person who tries to justify us torturing a traitor to this nation and perhaps we should consider prosecuting them
You want to talk about pussification? How about you highlighting the part of my post telling you to go fvck yourself without responding to why I posted it? You posted a bigoted, ignorant comment comparing the torture of suspects to the 'perverted morality' and 'deviant lifestyles' of 'Libby's'. You're entitled to your opinion but I'd rather have a liberal gay couple living next door to me than a bigoted, torture supporting, conservative like you.
Exactly. If we (US citizens) want to stop torture and restore the moral reputation of the US we need to stop electing officials who justify and condone torturing suspects.
Originally posted by: EXman
The silent majority would like to let you know if it is them or us? We choose us.
THIS >>NSFW<< is what we are up against.
Personally I'd take that simulated torture. :beer: Beer be better though.
Picture of AQ torture chamber and a tortured Iraqi Pic
Pic of tools found in AQ torture chamber. PIC
What those tools did to a AQ Kidnap victom Pic
Why do you have to choose one or the other? What does a decision on one affect the other?
You know, it's really sad that you think like this. I hate to break this to you, but torture is illegal. All forms of torture are illegal. Different forms of torture are still torture. Some torture isn't better or worse, it's all torture.
I know you probably can't comprehend this, but just because someone does something illegal doesn't give the right to do the same thing. So just because a few people like torturing and murdering people doesn't give you the right to torture as well.
It doesn't help, but I guess you have watched so many Rambo movies that it makes you feel better and less insecure that our country is inflicting more pain on others.
You probably don't realize this, but many people locked up as "terrorists" aren't. Just like the article I posted about a German that was held and tortured for 5 years, without any rights, and was found to have NO connection to terrorists or terrorism. After 3 years, the CIA/FBI knew and admitted he was innocent, yet continued to hold him for 2 more years.
So the people you want tortured often have nothing to do with terrorism. But torturing innocent people does tend to piss off a lot of the rest of the world, making either more likely to hate us, or to stop helping us capture/kill real terrorists.
So if it makes you feel better to inflict pain on others, fine, but know it doesn't help anything and it makes things worse.
Proof? Links that they give real evidence? I hate to break this to you, but most experts in the field say (and tortured people confirm) that the torturee's say anything and everything to get the pain to stop, so you have no idea is what they say is true. Read up on the USSR and KGB, they got everyone they arrested to "confess" to crimes they didn't do, just to get the pain and suffering to stop. This is a documented fact. Torture doesn't give real intel.
I suggest you go to your nearest recruiter and enlist if you feel that strongly. Then you can experience reality. Go find the terrorists and capture/kill them. But blindly capturing/killing random people in the hope they might be terrorists is counterproductive. Then you can find all the enjoyment you want torturing, right?
So you say you want to cut off terrorists heads in response? Ever heard of "two wrongs don't make a right"?
Stop watching Rambo and "24", those are fiction and not reality.
EXman
Lifer
- Jul 12, 2001
- 20,079
- 15
- 81
I don't care why. I have my opinion. And you have the right to be a jerk to me because you don't like it. I think you all are wrong and all the libbies here talk about illegal this and that. I think you all are wrong and you all think you have the moral high ground which is laughable.
I'll break it down to you this way. Most of you all say temporarily scaring the socks off a terrorist that has killed, helped plan to kill, by inaction let someone else kill or finance the killing is a immoral act but, you wouldn't think twice about murdering an innocent child.
Regardless of anything else please I really think you all are full of crap.
You might think I'm the monster so be it. Call me names all ya like. I'm entitled to my opinion and even though you were a Jerk earlier at least you admit to that.
What's to argue about?
Either you believe that America was founded on, and continues to cherish the principles of human rights, justice, honor, fair play, etc., or you don't.
I do. You don't. I consider your stance to be un-American. You can spout off all you want, but you cannot justify your stance using any of the traditional values that so many have sacrificed to preserve.
Possibly the worst thing is that you have become a tool of the terrorists that you hate so much, and you are too blind to see it. So, I will explain it to you.
The terrorists are weak by any measure i.e. militarily ( I seriously doubt that they could muster a single battalion strength unit under unified command at any given time), economically ( most cities in the U.S. probably have larger budgets than all of the terrorists combined), numerically ( they are the tiniest fraction of all humanity).
The reason that they do outrageous acts is as a sort of force multiplier. Reaction to their acts is completely out of proportion in terms of money and effort. The big bonus for them is being able to use people like you as a poster boy. They point to you and your ilk as glaring examples of how the U.S. lies about commitment to great values. They can use you to argue that the U.S. is unworthy of any leadership role in the world. They can point to you and pronounce Americans hypocrites who claim virtue and abandon it under adversity. They claim their bad acts to be the will of God. They can claim that the ones you support are just because Americans are assholes.
Your attitude devalues and degrades America. No argument there.
Either you believe that America was founded on, and continues to cherish the principles of human rights, justice, honor, fair play, etc., or you don't.
I do. You don't. I consider your stance to be un-American. You can spout off all you want, but you cannot justify your stance using any of the traditional values that so many have sacrificed to preserve.
Possibly the worst thing is that you have become a tool of the terrorists that you hate so much, and you are too blind to see it. So, I will explain it to you.
The terrorists are weak by any measure i.e. militarily ( I seriously doubt that they could muster a single battalion strength unit under unified command at any given time), economically ( most cities in the U.S. probably have larger budgets than all of the terrorists combined), numerically ( they are the tiniest fraction of all humanity).
The reason that they do outrageous acts is as a sort of force multiplier. Reaction to their acts is completely out of proportion in terms of money and effort. The big bonus for them is being able to use people like you as a poster boy. They point to you and your ilk as glaring examples of how the U.S. lies about commitment to great values. They can use you to argue that the U.S. is unworthy of any leadership role in the world. They can point to you and pronounce Americans hypocrites who claim virtue and abandon it under adversity. They claim their bad acts to be the will of God. They can claim that the ones you support are just because Americans are assholes.
Your attitude devalues and degrades America. No argument there.
EXman
Lifer
- Jul 12, 2001
- 20,079
- 15
- 81
No that is your Opinion. The waterboarding I don't consider to be torture that much it certainly isn't what AQ stops at. Please don't tell me that chopping an arm off and scaring someone with water the only difference is semantics. One has long term affects and the other has none. That is my Opinion.
You'll murder children but scaring a terrorist is immoral. That is the cliff notes version. You Dig?
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