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When we do it we call it "Harsh Tactics" .. when anyone else does it we call it "TORTURE" .. 2003 Torture Memo Released

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
Why do we Americans let our politicians get away with this shit.. These people are still in power :( and they think they have created loopholes to get away with their abuses


?03 U.S. Memo Approved Harsh Interrogations
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By MARK MAZZETTI
Published: April 2, 2008
WASHINGTON ? The Justice Department in 2003 gave military interrogators broad authority to use extreme methods in questioning detainees and argued that wartime powers largely exempted interrogators from laws banning harsh treatment, according to a memorandum publicly disclosed on Tuesday.

In a sweeping legal brief written in March 2003, when the Pentagon was struggling to determine the appropriate limits for its interrogators, the Justice Department gave the Pentagon much of the same authority it had provided to the Central Intelligence Agency in a memorandum months earlier. Both memorandums were later rescinded by the Justice Department.

The disclosure of the 2003 document, a detailed 81-page opinion written by John C. Yoo, who at the time was the second-ranking official at the Office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department, is likely to fuel the already intense debate about legal boundaries in the face of a continuing terrorist threat.

Mr. Yoo?s memorandum is the latest document to illuminate the legal foundation that Bush administration lawyers used after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, to give the White House broad powers to capture, detain and interrogate suspects around the globe.

The thrust of Mr. Yoo?s brief has long been known, but its specific contents were revealed on Tuesday after government lawyers turned it over to the American Civil Liberties Union, which has sought hundreds of documents from the Bush administration under the Freedom of Information Act.

Some legal scholars said Tuesday that they were amazed at the scope of the memorandum.

?This is a monument to executive supremacy and the imperial presidency,? said Eugene R. Fidell, who teaches military justice at Yale Law School and the Washington College of Law at American University. ?It?s also a road map for the Pentagon for fending off any prosecutions.?
more at link
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04...shington/02terror.html
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,716
6
76
People are too complacent. As long as everyone's cell phones work and they get their coffee in the morning people will remain slaves. It's the "anything for comfort" syndrome.
 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
The US government's policy on torture is stupid, and we are loosing the 'moral high ground' because of it. Instead the government should outlaw and publicly condemn ALL forms of torture, while secretly conducting it. Right now they are trying to justify certain kinds of torture, which is stupid. This just gives people one more reason to distrust the gov and it gives our enemies ammunition (in the form of propaganda) to be used against us. By outlawing and condemning torture, the government will give the people (and the rest of the world) the impression that it would never condone such acts, and that anyone caught doing so must be 'rogue agents'. Of course the government must "punish" these individuals swiftly to maintain the illusion. Sadly, the idiotic Bush regime (with its frequent and obvious lies) has created an environment were such a plan would be nearly impossible.
 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
The US government's policy on torture is stupid, and we are loosing the 'moral high ground' because of it. Instead the government should outlaw and publicly condemn ALL forms of torture, while secretly conducting it. Right now they are trying to justify certain kinds of torture, which is stupid. This just gives people one more reason to distrust the gov and it gives our enemies ammunition (in the form of propaganda) to be used against us. By outlawing and condemning torture, the government will give the people (and the rest of the world) the impression that it would never condone such acts, and that anyone caught doing so must be 'rogue agents'. Of course the government must "punish" these individuals swiftly to maintain the illusion. Sadly, the idiotic Bush regime (with its frequent and obvious lies) has created an environment were such a plan would be nearly impossible.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,979
1
0
"When we do it we call it "Harsh Tactics" .. when anyone else does it we call it "TORTURE"

We have the obvious moral authority to do it, while others of lesser moral standing can't be trusted to only use it for good, like we do.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,307
3
81
Maybe it's because when we do it people get wet when others do it people lose fingers/bowels/limbs/etcs.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,168
3,213
126
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
Maybe it's because when we do it people get wet when others do it people lose fingers/bowels/limbs/etcs.
Torture is unacceptable. End of discussion.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,419
0
0
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
We have the obvious moral authority to do it, while others of lesser moral standing can't be trusted to only use it for good, like we do.
Do we have the moral authority? Who gave us that authority? Or is it something that you just made up in your head because you think America is better ("higher moral standing") than everyone else?

Do we "only use it for Good"? Are you SURE ? What exactly is "Good"? What makes a cause "Good"? I would argue that we don't use it for "Good".
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,574
5
81
On this subject, verbiage I have problem with is defining waterboarding as "simulated drowning," which downplays what's really happening.

In waterboarding, the victim can't breath. It's not "simulated" drowning, it's actual drowning. But the perpetrators stop the process before the victim dies.

"Simulated drowning" makes waterboarding more acceptable to the general public. If the media would consistently define waterboarding as "forced drowning stopped short of death", the public might have a different view.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
23,003
770
126
It's funny how some people in this country will decry the human rights abuses in China but remain silent in the face of our own government's torture policy.

Let freedom ring!
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,083
15
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
Maybe it's because when we do it people get wet when others do it people lose fingers/bowels/limbs/etcs.
Torture is unacceptable. End of discussion.
Great thanks for ending this discussion king of Moral high ground! Turn off the internet we're saved! Bet you want to go abort some babies now. Or let some child rapist out because they are sick and just need treatment. Or maybe take skittles out of Schools. Naw you probably like those you cannot be that liberal. :)

Funny After 9/11 The same Wacko Libs were like "Why did you let this happen Bush?!" Why didn't you do more to stop it!!!! So guess what President Bush is doing what you all asked. You, the Lib who made the big stink "Bush is asleep at the wheel!" President Bush is doing your bidding on this and now your stomach has turned and knotted. You've had different thoughts "we're better than this!" We're Moral! or at least more moral! ;) and then the Pussification of America begins.

Do you all think that you actually sit down at a table and give them some starbucks and say "ok tell us what you know." Hit the recorder and boom we stop Americans from Dying! Please. Moral high ground Or shear stupidity? Moral high ground means nothing when you're 6ft under. Oh but at least we are Better than they are.... whine whine whine...

Seriously Top Al queda masterminds waterboarded they give intel we act on it and been taking out other AQ operatives ever since. Naw they're really good guys... We should be nice to them and they will stop hating us. Sounds plausable?

Terrorists chop off heads of our own and you all say sit on your hands? Grow some nads would you all take off the skirts already.

<grabs my lawnchair and a :beer:>

oh btw not a neo con I'm Ol 'skool ;) President Bush is a Crazy money spending, Mexican butt kissing, recklass, PAC appointing, cannot get a fence built sonavabitch... :)
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,083
15
81
Originally posted by: shira
On this subject, verbiage I have problem with is defining waterboarding as "simulated drowning," which downplays what's really happening.

In waterboarding, the victim can't breath. It's not "simulated" drowning, it's actual drowning. But the perpetrators stop the process before the victim dies.

"Simulated drowning" makes waterboarding more acceptable to the general public. If the media would consistently define waterboarding as "forced drowning stopped short of death", the public might have a different view.
The silent majority would like to let you know if it is them or us? We choose us.

THIS >>NSFW<< is what we are up against.
Personally I'd take that simulated torture. :beer: Beer be better though. :confused::beer:


Picture of AQ torture chamber and a tortured Iraqi Pic

Pic of tools found in AQ torture chamber. PIC

What those tools did to a AQ Kidnap victom Pic

 

ultra laser

Banned
Jul 2, 2007
513
0
0
American people don't "let" them do anything. It's completely outside of their control. What the American people think or believe is absolutely irrelevant because it has no bearing on what the government does.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,168
3,213
126
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
Maybe it's because when we do it people get wet when others do it people lose fingers/bowels/limbs/etcs.
Torture is unacceptable. End of discussion.
nonsense:)
Unacceptable. They also fly planes into buildings, you wanna volunteer for that?

 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: shira
On this subject, verbiage I have problem with is defining waterboarding as "simulated drowning," which downplays what's really happening.

In waterboarding, the victim can't breath. It's not "simulated" drowning, it's actual drowning. But the perpetrators stop the process before the victim dies.

"Simulated drowning" makes waterboarding more acceptable to the general public. If the media would consistently define waterboarding as "forced drowning stopped short of death", the public might have a different view.
The silent majority would like to let you know if it is them or us? We choose us.

THIS >>NSFW<< is what we are up against.
Personally I'd take that simulated torture. :beer: Beer be better though. :confused::beer:


Picture of AQ torture chamber and a tortured Iraqi Pic

Pic of tools found in AQ torture chamber. PIC

What those tools did to a AQ Kidnap victom Pic
So you are stating that because someone commits a horrendous, illegal, immoral act, you feel the need to match that act with an act of your own, that is equally horrendous, illegal, and immoral?

Way to take the high ground. Do you also support torturing/murdering all suspected rapists, murderers, and pedophiles, just to make sure we don't allow one of them to hurt someone?
 

Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,651
132
106
Originally posted by: EXman

Funny After 9/11 The same Wacko Libs were like "Why did you let this happen Bush?!" Why didn't you do more to stop it!!!! So guess what President Bush is doing what you all asked. You, the Lib who made the big stink "Bush is asleep at the wheel!" President Bush is doing your bidding on this and now your stomach has turned and knotted. You've had different thoughts "we're better than this!" We're Moral! or at least more moral! ;) and then the Pussification of America begins.

Do you all think that you actually sit down at a table and give them some starbucks and say "ok tell us what you know." Hit the recorder and boom we stop Americans from Dying! Please. Moral high ground Or shear stupidity? Moral high ground means nothing when you're 6ft under. Oh but at least we are Better than they are.... whine whine whine...

Uh, I think the 'libs' thought that staying LEGAL was a given! I guess when you talk to people you have to specify every little detail. When the 'libs' asked Bush to 'do more', I guess they should have said make sure it is legal. :roll:

 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,083
15
81
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: shira
On this subject, verbiage I have problem with is defining waterboarding as "simulated drowning," which downplays what's really happening.

In waterboarding, the victim can't breath. It's not "simulated" drowning, it's actual drowning. But the perpetrators stop the process before the victim dies.

"Simulated drowning" makes waterboarding more acceptable to the general public. If the media would consistently define waterboarding as "forced drowning stopped short of death", the public might have a different view.
The silent majority would like to let you know if it is them or us? We choose us.

THIS >>NSFW<< is what we are up against.
Personally I'd take that simulated torture. :beer: Beer be better though. :confused::beer:


Picture of AQ torture chamber and a tortured Iraqi Pic

Pic of tools found in AQ torture chamber. PIC

What those tools did to a AQ Kidnap victom Pic
So you are stating that because someone commits a horrendous, illegal, immoral act, you feel the need to match that act with an act of your own, that is equally horrendous, illegal, and immoral?

Way to take the high ground. Do you also support torturing/murdering all suspected rapists, murderers, and pedophiles, just to make sure we don't allow one of them to hurt someone?

OK did your brain go on vacation? :Q

What WE DO IS NOTHING LIKE THAT! Did you look at the pictures and descriptions?

Go back and look see what they do and tell us all in clear conscience that is the SAME.

Don't talk about "suspected" criminals and torture no one is talking about that. But incarserating "Convicted" criminals so they don't harm others absolutely with out a doubt it's called our legal system. Sounds like you are a wannabe activist judge... :roll:
God help us if that happened!

ROOOOAAAAR!!! Please don't talk about Illegal Immoral acts Libby. Peeps of your ilk have preverted morality more than any conservative ever could. Just look at lifestyles that you all support that are at the deviant lifestyles. But that is for a different thread so I digress...

 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,083
15
81
Originally posted by: Bird222
Originally posted by: EXman

Funny After 9/11 The same Wacko Libs were like "Why did you let this happen Bush?!" Why didn't you do more to stop it!!!! So guess what President Bush is doing what you all asked. You, the Lib who made the big stink "Bush is asleep at the wheel!" President Bush is doing your bidding on this and now your stomach has turned and knotted. You've had different thoughts "we're better than this!" We're Moral! or at least more moral! ;) and then the Pussification of America begins.

Do you all think that you actually sit down at a table and give them some starbucks and say "ok tell us what you know." Hit the recorder and boom we stop Americans from Dying! Please. Moral high ground Or shear stupidity? Moral high ground means nothing when you're 6ft under. Oh but at least we are Better than they are.... whine whine whine...

Uh, I think the 'libs' thought that staying LEGAL was a given! I guess when you talk to people you have to specify every little detail. When the 'libs' asked Bush to 'do more', I guess they should have said make sure it is legal. :roll:
Pussification of America Continues! Ha :disgust: Try telling that to 3800+ families from 9/11 that want and deserve justice. Would they want us to pussyfoot around with these terrorists or take action?

No they didn't specify...
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,083
15
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
Maybe it's because when we do it people get wet when others do it people lose fingers/bowels/limbs/etcs.
Torture is unacceptable. End of discussion.
nonsense:)
Unacceptable. They also fly planes into buildings, you wanna volunteer for that?
That is my whole point WE are NOT DOING THE SAME THING NOW. we waterboard and they Iron peoples skin and use barbaric tools on them. Are you arguing that we are doing the same?

Typical lib when faced with reality or an opinion they do not like they dismiss it and do not bother to use their brain to argue their point.

Wow that was a lazy post I expect better next time. ;)



 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,991
0
0
Originally posted by: EXman
What WE DO IS NOTHING LIKE THAT! Did you look at the pictures and descriptions? Go back and look see what they do and tell us all in clear conscience that is the SAME.
Irrelevant. We preach like we are morally superior. Any form of torture condoned by the US negates that moral high road we claim to travel.



Originally posted by: EXman
Don't talk about "suspected" criminals and torture no one is talking about that. But incarserating "Convicted" criminals so they don't harm others absolutely with out a doubt it's called our legal system. Sounds like you are a wannabe activist judge... :roll:
God help us if that happened!
Last time I checked our legal system does not allow or condone the torture of suspected or even convicted criminals.

Originally posted by: EXman
ROOOOAAAAR!!! Please don't talk about Illegal Immoral acts Libby. Peeps of your ilk have preverted morality more than any conservative ever could. Just look at lifestyles that you all support that are at the deviant lifestyles. But that is for a different thread so I digress...
Yes, your bigoted views do belong in another thread. For now kindly go fvck yourself.

 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,299
127
106
Reality is.... only the dumb, lazy, and scared think that torture is acceptable.

because only dumb people think that torture works. Torture only works as a scare tactic against an opponent... and it has certainly worked for some chickenhawks in here.

Why else are so many people afraid of some middleasterns out in the bumfvck desert? because they torture and then they send in the video and then we are all aghast at the barbaric acts.

That is what they WANT.

and so now in response America is supposed to come out and be as barbaric as they are?

I read an article about how General Patreus has changed the American military approach in Iraq post "surge." It discussed how prior to the surge American patrols were not going house to house to do some "meet and greet" but now they are. Now american patrols go to every house in targeted neighborhoods, they take notes of occupants, and discuss with the Iraqi civilians things such as making loans to private businesses, working on utilities, and trying to find out who in the neighborhood are working as insurgents. That is a TON of work for our military personnel because it means going to every single house in target neighborhoods in baghdad. But it has worked.

I will put money on it, that this sort of work pays off in more ways than you think. Much moreso than America developing this image that we torture and we no longer take the moral high ground against terrorists. How is that supposed to help us?
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,083
15
81
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: EXman
What WE DO IS NOTHING LIKE THAT! Did you look at the pictures and descriptions? Go back and look see what they do and tell us all in clear conscience that is the SAME.
Irrelevant. We preach like we are morally superior. Any form of torture condoned by the US negates that moral high road we claim to travel.



Originally posted by: EXman
Don't talk about "suspected" criminals and torture no one is talking about that. But incarserating "Convicted" criminals so they don't harm others absolutely with out a doubt it's called our legal system. Sounds like you are a wannabe activist judge... :roll:
God help us if that happened!
Last time I checked our legal system does not allow or condone the torture of suspected or even convicted criminals.

Originally posted by: EXman
ROOOOAAAAR!!! Please don't talk about Illegal Immoral acts Libby. Peeps of your ilk have preverted morality more than any conservative ever could. Just look at lifestyles that you all support that are at the deviant lifestyles. But that is for a different thread so I digress...
Yes, your bigoted views do belong in another thread. For now kindly go fvck yourself.
Another weak ass post no one is talking about torturing criminals. San just pulled that out of his ass.

The Pussification continues
 

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