When the h*ll is the US government going to rein in oil speculation?

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: yuppiejr

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
I haven't owned a car for over 1.5 years. At first I did it because I wanted to get my carbon footprint down, and now I'm laughing my ass off at fuel prices. Don't try to tell me you can't live without your precious gas, because I know for a fact that it's possible. Actually it has been pretty easy, and I get lots of exercise too. I await the excuses from fat ass lazy American slobs telling me it just can't be done.

This is kind of a brainless argument. Please tell me how I'm going to bring my two year old to her doctor's appointment five miles away. Walk? In February in the middle of a snow storm? There is no public transportation for me. Is my wife going to take a bicycle to ride 15 miles to work at 2 am when she's on call at the hospital?

Lets not let reality get in the way of the Eurotrash utopia that we all live in eco-friendly condos stacked on top of one another like cordwood paying a 90% tax rate and letting the government do all of the complicated thinking/planning for us. That's the problem with your Socialism Loving Europeans, they are so busy looking down their noses at the rest of the world they fail to realize that their little utopian delusions have turned them into state subjects rather than free citizens.

America is not perfect but for the most part we leave it to our citizens to make their own choices as to how they live their life assuming they can provide the economic means to do so on their own steam. I carpool 25 miles each way to work every day in a (gasp) SUV and this gas price thing has in no way has or will change my lifestyle choices. I vote in every election, own guns, enjoy watching my daughter play in our large suburban yard, drink beer with my Scandahoovian neigbors and generally relish in the freedom that living in this country provides. We still have far more people moving TO this country legally and illegally than moving out while you Europeans seem to be having a significant population decline underway... maybe that should tell you something?

I'm not European. I pay 19.5% income tax and 12.5% sales tax. I don't live in an apartment building, rather I live 1 hour walk from work and 10 min walk from university, although I spent many months living 1hr from uni and 2 hrs from work. I made the effort. I also vote and enjoy the freedoms of living in a western democracy, not that I understand how that's relevant to this thread at all.

Edit - I also find it ironic that you're implying I'm a socialist while I'm taking the position that the government should not be intervening in this case. So why don't you step back, stop beating your chest and take a considered approach to your next reply.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Thump553

While I believe in free markets, it is quite apparent that some more effective regulation is needed here. Commodities futures markets are designed to help suppliers and consumers of commodities insure a more predictable price on their needed supplies. Instead its presently being used by a lot of people for profit motive, and goes bonkers on every little trivial bit of news.

.

A lot of institutional investors have found out there is a lot of money to to be made in the commodities market. They need to fund pensions... so don't expect them to go away easily.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
I haven't owned a car for over 1.5 years. At first I did it because I wanted to get my carbon footprint down, and now I'm laughing my ass off at fuel prices. Don't try to tell me you can't live without your precious gas, because I know for a fact that it's possible. Actually it has been pretty easy, and I get lots of exercise too. I await the excuses from fat ass lazy American slobs telling me it just can't be done.

This is kind of a brainless argument. Please tell me how I'm going to bring my two year old to her doctor's appointment five miles away. Walk? In February in the middle of a snow storm? There is no public transportation for me. Is my wife going to take a bicycle to ride 15 miles to work at 2 am when she's on call at the hospital?

I'm not saying everyone should sell their cars and never drive again. That would be brainless. But I'm willing to bet that a very large majority of people would, with a bit of extra effort, be able to cut 70%+ of their driving out by using more public transport or walking/cycling more often. Not everyone will be able to but I have absolutely zero sympathy for the chumps out there who continue to bitch and moan as they fill their tanks.

Even though I disagree with his insane libertarian ideologies, Cyclo is right in this case. If you don't like the price of fuel, stop buying so fucking much of it and put in some god damned effort for once in your lazy ass lives.

We could do a lot of things if we had to. If all oil imports stopped right now, we'd all be carpooling and buying bikes and the roads would be a lot emptier. I agree that most of us could cut our gas use back substantially.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
I'm not saying everyone should sell their cars and never drive again. That would be brainless. But I'm willing to bet that a very large majority of people would, with a bit of extra effort, be able to cut 70%+ of their driving out by using more public transport or walking/cycling more often. Not everyone will be able to but I have absolutely zero sympathy for the chumps out there who continue to bitch and moan as they fill their tanks.

Even though I disagree with his insane libertarian ideologies, Cyclo is right in this case. If you don't like the price of fuel, stop buying so fucking much of it and put in some god damned effort for once in your lazy ass lives.

Never in my life have I been called a libertarian until this thread. Most people would call me a populist, which is about as far the opposite direction as you can get. I just don't like seeing people waiting for the government to save them from the big bad <insert name of the problem they're bringing on themselves>.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: loki8481
next step, nationalizing wall street?

Revoke the deregulation? Can you find a monetary crisis or scandal in the last thirty years without it's roots in deregulation? Putting Federal reins on Wall Street seems to have done quite a bit of good.

Deregulation = Greed

 

[dmcowen674]

Actually one benefit of this unnatural greed driven oil/fuel surge is illegals actually leaving the country.

 

[Queasy]

Wow. Almost sounds as if we need to open up the outer 80% of the continental shelf that is currently blocked to energy exploration. Oh darn, the Dems blocked that again. Don't worry though, I'm sure suing OPEC, instituting Windfall Profit Taxes, and instituting Cap-and-Trade schemes will lower energy prices...

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Queasy
Wow. Almost sounds as if we need to open up the outer 80% of the continental shelf that is currently blocked to energy exploration. Oh darn, the Dems blocked that again. Don't worry though, I'm sure suing OPEC, instituting Windfall Profit Taxes, and instituting Cap-and-Trade schemes will lower energy prices...

I'm not claiming that I support this decision to prevent drilling 50+ miles off of our coasts, but there is one line which did stand out to me in that article:

"We are kidding ourselves if we think we can drill our way out of these problems"

Drilling off of our coasts seems more like a band aid solution than anything else. Of course, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing as long as the country uses the time and money that it will receive from the drilling efforts to develop alternative fuels/power and technology which utilizes that power in an affordable manner. I'm not convinced that they will do that though. *ahem Nuclear Power*

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Queasy
Wow. Almost sounds as if we need to open up the outer 80% of the continental shelf that is currently blocked to energy exploration. Oh darn, the Dems blocked that again. Don't worry though, I'm sure suing OPEC, instituting Windfall Profit Taxes, and instituting Cap-and-Trade schemes will lower energy prices...

I'm not claiming that I support this decision to prevent drilling 50+ miles off of our coasts, but there is one line which did stand out to me in that article:

"We are kidding ourselves if we think we can drill our way out of these problems"

Drilling off of our coasts seems more like a band aid solution than anything else. Of course, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing as long as the country uses the time and money that it will receive from the drilling efforts to develop alternative fuels/power and technology which utilizes that power in an affordable manner. *ahem Nuclear Power*

We are definitely kidding ourselves if we think we can tax and sue our way out of this problem though. If we have the resources, we should use them. And it isn't just off-shore drilling. The development of oil shale is being blocked. ANWR is blocked. Oil refineries get blocked. Nuclear Power is blocked. Heck, even wind farms get blocked.

As I've said before, I don't see why we can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. Increasing the supply of oil from the United States could only help pop the speculation bubble because it would be a supply of oil from the most stable and powerful nation in the world.

Unfortunately, we're screwed in this regard because both Obama and McCain support Cap-and-Trade schemes and not opening up our own resources to development.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Unfortunately, we're screwed in this regard because both Obama and McCain support Cap-and-Trade schemes and not opening up our own resources to development.

I get nervous when considering what might happen over the course of many years should we rid ourselves completely of those schemes though. Lighten up some maybe, but to rid ourselves entirely scares me a bit. If I am not mistaken, we haven't come close to that state of mind since 1980 or something. Obviously my nervousness is originating from the "unknown", but that doesn't mean I should ignore it either. I'm by no means some treehugging hippy but I do care about the environment to a degree, and I do not fully understand the potential consequences over the course of the next 25-50 years should be rid ourselves of these caps.

 

[lupi]

Public transit arguments as a way to fix this problem are about as useful as saying get a new fuel type. The public transport system in the US in general sucks serious balls. Even in those few locations that could be said to have adequate MT, the increased desire to use it at this time is seriously bogging down the system given current resource levels.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Thats so fucking retarded it hardly warrants my response, please diaf

Ah, looks like I touched a nerve with this guy. I can now speculate that Mr. Cuda drives an Escalade 90 miles to work every day. He can see no alternative because he is intellectually lazy and it hasn't yet crossed his mind that he might have to change his lifestyle. He will never change his lifestyle until it's too late and he has already bankrupted himself by purchasing expensive energy to maintain his current lifestyle. No sympathy from me.

Wrong dumbfuck. Broad sweeping generlizations ftl.


I drive about 30 miles each way to work in a car that gets about 27 MPG. I also drive to school about 15 miles 3 days a week. I chose a location in between my school and my work so that I don't drive excessively far to each one. I am graduating this fall and will be looking for a career then, so finding another job right now doesn't make a whole lot of sense to work there for less than 6 months. Not to mention the job I have is one of the few where I'm able to work the hours needed to still get through school, but make enough money to pay my bills. My manager has refused to transfer me to a closer location to my house, Ive already asked. I could buy a more energy efficient car, but that would mean trading in my current car that is only 2 years old. With the amount of depreciation a car goes through, I'd surely be losing a lot of money by trading in my current car and buying a new one. The money I'd say from gas may or may not make up that difference over the course of a year or two, but most def. initially I'd be losing a lot of money. I have contemplated buying a cheap motorcycle, but the area I live in has a lot of retired folks that are awful at driving and I'm not a big fan of dying. Rather than doing drastic things that would be very difficult for me to change, its much easier to just go without some amenities. Instead of eating out at subway for lunch, I'll pack a PB&J. Instead of ordering Domino's I'll pick up a Tostino's from the store. Instead of buying the Pay per view UFC fight I'll go to Chilli's and watch it with some friends.


Now how exactly am I supposed to just not buy gas here? Should I drop out of school? Quit my job and work somewhere within walking distance making significantly less? Or maybe I should just ride the bus to work school... oh wait, there is no bus that goes that route.



Why don't you pull your fucking head out of your ass and realize that for a lot of people, making drastic changes in their lifestyle, in terms of the way they consume gas is not a choice they can make without COMPLETELY changing their life. For most people, its easier to just go without some things (read: damaging the economy, spending less) than to overhaul their entire life, start a farm and ride a tricycle.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Queasy

Unfortunately, we're screwed in this regard because both Obama and McCain support Cap-and-Trade schemes and not opening up our own resources to development.

I get nervous when considering what might happen over the course of many years should we rid ourselves completely of those schemes though. Lighten up some maybe, but to rid ourselves entirely scares me a bit. If I am not mistaken, we haven't come close to that state of mind since 1980 or something. Obviously my nervousness is originating from the "unknown", but that doesn't mean I should ignore it either. I'm by no means some treehugging hippy but I do care about the environment to a degree, and I do not fully understand the potential consequences over the course of the next 25-50 years should be rid ourselves of these caps.

I care about the environment too. But I also recognize the reality that for us to continue to thrive, we have to have plentiful and stable energy sources.

The USA currently does not have a Cap-and-Trade schemes. We have regulations but nothing on the order of the Cap-and-Trade scheme that the EU utilitzes. The EU's cap-and-trade scheme has not reduced the emissions however. In fact, their emissions have increased while ours has actually slowed and even reduced. Meanwhile, China just zoomed by us.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Queasy

Unfortunately, we're screwed in this regard because both Obama and McCain support Cap-and-Trade schemes and not opening up our own resources to development.

I get nervous when considering what might happen over the course of many years should we rid ourselves completely of those schemes though. Lighten up some maybe, but to rid ourselves entirely scares me a bit. If I am not mistaken, we haven't come close to that state of mind since 1980 or something. Obviously my nervousness is originating from the "unknown", but that doesn't mean I should ignore it either. I'm by no means some treehugging hippy but I do care about the environment to a degree, and I do not fully understand the potential consequences over the course of the next 25-50 years should be rid ourselves of these caps.

I care about the environment too. But I also recognize the reality that for us to continue to thrive, we have to have plentiful and stable energy sources.

The USA currently does not have a Cap-and-Trade schemes. We have regulations but nothing on the order of the Cap-and-Trade scheme that the EU utilitzes. The EU's cap-and-trade scheme has not reduced the emissions however. In fact, their emissions have increased while ours has actually slowed and even reduced. Meanwhile, China just zoomed by us.

Hmm it would appear that I was confusing our regs as being the same or at least similar enough to Cap-and-Trade. I should probably read up on that a bit more. I also understand your position in the sense that the line needs to be drawn somewhere with this stuff if we are to continue to thrive by depending on energy like we do today. I guess that is my real problem. I am unsure about where I should drawn that line for myself. I do know that my envelope is currently be pushed though.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: lupi
Public transit arguments as a way to fix this problem are about as useful as saying get a new fuel type. The public transport system in the US in general sucks serious balls. Even in those few locations that could be said to have adequate MT, the increased desire to use it at this time is seriously bogging down the system given current resource levels.

The day I take a bus from my suburban home to work is the day you know the damn sky has fallen and that is a fact. I'd sooner cycle through the snow in -5F than get on a bus with strangers who stink and/or talk about God knows what. Been there, done that! Public transport is a terrible solution to this. The solution is a short-term reduction in use (already taking place and will accelerate with more fuel efficient vehicles) and a long-term serious increase in alternative fuels and electric-supplemented vehicles.

 

[Cuda1447]

Once again I agree with Skoorb (wtf mate?) but I'd like to add one thing. What the hell are we saving our oil for? If we drill our own reserves, use the shale reserves, anwar etc... we may not have gas for $1 a gallon and we may not have gas forever, but we might be able to keep our gas prices reasonable for next 3-5 years while we come up with new alternatives. As an added bonus we won't be sending billions of dollars to those fuckfaces in the middle east. If gas gets to 5-6 a gallon, our economy will be fucked. Not that its not already...

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Once again I agree with Skoorb (wtf mate?) but I'd like to add one thing. What the hell are we saving our oil for? If we drill our own reserves, use the shale reserves, anwar etc... we may not have gas for $1 a gallon and we may not have gas forever, but we might be able to keep our gas prices reasonable for next 3-5 years while we come up with new alternatives. As an added bonus we won't be sending billions of dollars to those fuckfaces in the middle east. If gas gets to 5-6 a gallon, our economy will be fucked. Not that its not already...

A respite from the prices (although these ones now are bubbles, I'm positive, mostly) is worthwhile and responsible if there is an aggressive and serious approach to being prepared for when they run out. Even without transportation, though, oil is still needed for a multitude of other things like plastic and fertilizers. I do think drilling now is a good idea. It would help show the markets the US is serious about dropping oil imports and it would very much help while everything else gets ramped up--as long as we don't all get apathetic and wait with our pants down for the next time this happens.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Once again I agree with Skoorb (wtf mate?) but I'd like to add one thing. What the hell are we saving our oil for? If we drill our own reserves, use the shale reserves, anwar etc... we may not have gas for $1 a gallon and we may not have gas forever, but we might be able to keep our gas prices reasonable for next 3-5 years while we come up with new alternatives. As an added bonus we won't be sending billions of dollars to those fuckfaces in the middle east. If gas gets to 5-6 a gallon, our economy will be fucked. Not that its not already...

A respite from the prices (although these ones now are bubbles, I'm positive, mostly) is worthwhile and responsible if there is an aggressive and serious approach to being prepared for when they run out. Even without transportation, though, oil is still needed for a multitude of other things like plastic and fertilizers. I do think drilling now is a good idea. It would help show the markets the US is serious about dropping oil imports and it would very much help while everything else gets ramped up--as long as we don't all get apathetic and wait with our pants down for the next time this happens.

That's the real kicker. I believe we would need some signed documentation which forces the right people to come up with a reliable and widely used alternative source of energy as well as the technology that uses it before this happens again should we allow the drilling of oil off our coasts. Imagine how awful it would seem right now if that option didn't even exist?

 

[Michael]

miketheidiot,

You are quick to ask me for links and then toss out an unsupported $80 number as the "real" value of oil meaning that $50+ is due solely to "speculation". Can you please provide support for that number?

Michael

 

[Thump553]

Originally posted by: Michael
miketheidiot,

You are quick to ask me for links and then toss out an unsupported $80 number as the "real" value of oil meaning that $50+ is due solely to "speculation". Can you please provide support for that number?

Michael

I've seen similar statements made repeatedly on both TV and in print media. A very quick google search turns up the following:

Perhaps 60% of today's oil price is pure speculation

IMF report-speculation causing a siginificant effect in oil price surge

Call for united stand by G8 against oil speculation

There are literally hundreds of such links out there.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Thump553

Originally posted by: Michael
miketheidiot,

You are quick to ask me for links and then toss out an unsupported $80 number as the "real" value of oil meaning that $50+ is due solely to "speculation". Can you please provide support for that number?

Michael

I've seen similar statements made repeatedly on both TV and in print media. A very quick google search turns up the following:

Perhaps 60% of today's oil price is pure speculation

IMF report-speculation causing a siginificant effect in oil price surge

Call for united stand by G8 against oil speculation

There are literally hundreds of such links out there.

Also in my Oil/Gas thread here and in my sig

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Thump553

Originally posted by: Michael
miketheidiot,

You are quick to ask me for links and then toss out an unsupported $80 number as the "real" value of oil meaning that $50+ is due solely to "speculation". Can you please provide support for that number?

Michael

I've seen similar statements made repeatedly on both TV and in print media. A very quick google search turns up the following:

Perhaps 60% of today's oil price is pure speculation

IMF report-speculation causing a siginificant effect in oil price surge

Call for united stand by G8 against oil speculation

There are literally hundreds of such links out there.

Well, the best way to fvck those speculator is to do something about oil consumption and demand, starting from yourself and try to tell everyone you know to not use that much gas and oil by products. In the long run, this oil price bubble caused by speculation is gonna burst because there is no fundamental demand to support it. Once the price starts to drop, those fvcking speculators is gonna suffer because of the leverage they use, just like the housing bubble.

It's useless to b!tch about the speculation. If the US make some rule, speculators will just go to exchanges in some other country. US is the number one oil consumer in the world, and when you take per capita consideration, US consume so much more oil per person then any other country in the world it is not even funny. So why don't each one of us take a serious look at ourselves and see what we can do to reduce the oil consumption instead of b!tching about the others.

 

[Thump553]

rchiu: that is where you and I disagree-I view the speculation as adding unneeded additional expense and volatility to ALL of us, in the US or outside of it. I don't think it would be all that hard to fix or minimize either (suitable regulations in US markets, tax the heck out of oil speculation profits made by US citizens/companies made in overseas exchanges).

I certainly don't disagree that we US citizens are overconsuming oil, and I personally welcome the demise of SUVs, etc. But to me this unchecked speculation is like having a set of thiry pound ankle weights on, for the effect it causes to our economy.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Thump553
rchiu: that is where you and I disagree-I view the speculation as adding unneeded additional expense and volatility to ALL of us, in the US or outside of it. I don't think it would be all that hard to fix or minimize either (suitable regulations in US markets, tax the heck out of oil speculation profits made by US citizens/companies made in overseas exchanges).

I certainly don't disagree that we US citizens are overconsuming oil, and I personally welcome the demise of SUVs, etc. But to me this unchecked speculation is like having a set of thiry pound ankle weights on, for the effect it causes to our economy.

The US can do nothing. It's an international commodity and the US has no power to do anything at the moment in regard to forcing the prices down except by doing real value-ads like decreasing demand or strengthening the dollar. Putting in checks and all that won't work globally.

I know dave and others want to nationalize oil, which also will not help at all. Maybe the domestic stuff goes at $50/barrel, which just leaves the world market on even shorter supply and the prices flies up there, so it's nothing that can be fanagled.

The volatility is frustrating, but if this is a big bubble it's going to contract below its worth, as they generally do, and the net impact will be that we're fine. You look at housing and see that as things are starting to flatten out, it appears that most markets will have ended up, decade over decade, growing at a historical and reasonable rate. If oil is "worth" $70 in a sane world and selling now at $130+, it may drop below $70 for a while as it crashes.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Thump553
rchiu: that is where you and I disagree-I view the speculation as adding unneeded additional expense and volatility to ALL of us, in the US or outside of it. I don't think it would be all that hard to fix or minimize either (suitable regulations in US markets, tax the heck out of oil speculation profits made by US citizens/companies made in overseas exchanges).

I certainly don't disagree that we US citizens are overconsuming oil, and I personally welcome the demise of SUVs, etc. But to me this unchecked speculation is like having a set of thiry pound ankle weights on, for the effect it causes to our economy.

The US can do nothing. It's an international commodity and the US has no power to do anything at the moment in regard to forcing the prices down except by doing real value-ads like decreasing demand or strengthening the dollar. Putting in checks and all that won't work globally.

I know dave and others want to nationalize oil, which also will not help at all.

Maybe the domestic stuff goes at $50/barrel, which just leaves the world market on even shorter supply and the prices flies up there, so it's nothing that can be fanagled.

The volatility is frustrating, but if this is a big bubble it's going to contract below its worth, as they generally do, and the net impact will be that we're fine. You look at housing and see that as things are starting to flatten out, it appears that most markets will have ended up, decade over decade, growing at a historical and reasonable rate. If oil is "worth" $70 in a sane world and selling now at $130+, it may drop below $70 for a while as it crashes.

I don't give a crap about the rest fo the world. Are we their Mommy?