When the h*ll is the US government going to rein in oil speculation?

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: PingSpike
Thousands of families unable to afford to heat their homes, the costs of food and basic services skyrocketing with no viable alternatives available. Yes, we are charging towards utopia.

Everyone knew gas was going to go up, but the breakneck pace it has occured at, and for no particular reason, has left people little time to adapt even if they can afford too.

Do you feel the same about people who purchased homes during the housing bubble and are now being foreclosed on? I've seen threads on this board where there was next to no sympathy for them.

I guess I don't understand the question. No I don't feel the same because I don't really understand how those situations are the same? Around here housing construction is constrained so it got expensive, but since there was always a shortage is isn't really coming down much. And subprime loans are not as common in VT has other parts of the country.

But I can't really blame people for getting sucked up in the frenzy...everyone I talked to since I got out of college kept talking about all the money in real estate, and how you were going to get priced out of the market and blah, blah, blah. When people are bombarded from all sides it isn't surprising many of them get caught up. At any rate, I don't really see that as part of the topic at hand. Sure, lots of people bought more house then they had any business buying...but inflation and energy costs skyrocketing in a year doesn't just screw some one who wanted a McMansion they couldn't afford, it screws anyone that has a job or a fixed income, heats their house, drives to work or buys food.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: PingSpike
Thousands of families unable to afford to heat their homes, the costs of food and basic services skyrocketing with no viable alternatives available. Yes, we are charging towards utopia.

Everyone knew gas was going to go up, but the breakneck pace it has occured at, and for no particular reason, has left people little time to adapt even if they can afford too.

Do you feel the same about people who purchased homes during the housing bubble and are now being foreclosed on? I've seen threads on this board where there was next to no sympathy for them.

People need food. They need electricity. Most need gas to go to work no matter how economic their vehicle might be. People do not need to buy a house which they cannot afford. You are comparing apples and oranges.

It's not just people who purchased a house they can't afford. What about the family that purchased a house they could afford but is now $50K upside down in it? They aren't in danger of losing their house but they're stuck there until the market rebounds. One of my coworkers is in that exact situation.

Anyway, how is purchasing a house you can't afford any different than purchasing a car you can't afford to keep gas in? Sure most of us require cars to get from place to place but most of us don't need 3 ton vehicles with MPG's in the low teens to do it.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Tired of the price of a product? Stop buying the product. Free market FTW.

Thats so fucking retarded it hardly warrants my response, please diaf

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Tired of the price of a product? Stop buying the product. Free market FTW.

What if your town started charging a couple bucks per gallon for water delivered to you house. Gonna stop using water for human consumption, baths, water heater, toilet...

Yeah, didn't think so. Oil may not be quit on the necessity level as water, but in out industrial society it's pretty damned close.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Tired of the price of a product? Stop buying the product. Free market FTW.

Thats so fucking retarded it hardly warrants my response, please diaf

No, he's right. Don't like buying gas for your car, then just use a simple alternative.

LOL.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Tired of the price of a product? Stop buying the product. Free market FTW.

What if your town started charging a couple bucks per gallon for water delivered to you house. Gonna stop using water for human consumption, baths, water heater, toilet...

Yeah, didn't think so. Oil may not be quit on the necessity level as water, but in out industrial society it's pretty damned close.

He has his own well, unlike you dummies! Earthquakes will never ravage him, he's prepared since he installed a seismic repeller. And your stupid expensive food problems are your own, as he bought a house with a massive self sustaining farm run by solar powered robots. He is batman, always prepared unlike us rubes!

Sorry Cyclo, I understand your point but I couldn't resist.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Tired of the price of a product? Stop buying the product. Free market FTW.

What if your town started charging a couple bucks per gallon for water delivered to you house. Gonna stop using water for human consumption, baths, water heater, toilet...

Yeah, didn't think so. Oil may not be quit on the necessity level as water, but in out industrial society it's pretty damned close.

He has his own well, unlike you dummies! Earthquakes will never ravage him, he's prepared since he installed a seismic repeller. And your stupid expensive food problems are your own, as he bought a house with a massive self sustaining farm run by solar powered robots. He is batman, always prepared unlike us rubes!

Sorry Cyclo, I understand your point but I couldn't resist.

:laugh:

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Robor

It's not just people who purchased a house they can't afford. What about the family that purchased a house they could afford but is now $50K upside down in it? They aren't in danger of losing their house but they're stuck there until the market rebounds. One of my coworkers is in that exact situation.

Anyway, how is purchasing a house you can't afford any different than purchasing a car you can't afford to keep gas in? Sure most of us require cars to get from place to place but most of us don't need 3 ton vehicles with MPG's in the low teens to do it.

In terms of families who cannot move out of their house because the market is bad, I feel for them a little bit but that situation really isn't too terrible. All they need is a little patience.

In terms of the whole owning an SUV thing as opposed to an econ car, the difference is that it can be very difficult to get rid of an SUV right now and be able to purchase a reliable econ car with the money. Most used car dealers are either flat out refusing to take in more SUVs or they are offering terrible trade in values for them because they cannot get them off the lots right now. The same families who are being effected the most by the increase in gas prices are the ones who find it very difficult to save up enough money to buy a used econ car even if they trade in their practically worthless SUV. On top of that, when you consider how long it will take to make up the difference of what they are paying for gas with the econ car as opposed to the money they are paying to even get that econ car it quickly becomes apparent why a lot of people are opting to stick with the SUV for the time being. Not to mention that it really isn't fair to expect most Americans who purchased an SUV over 5 years ago to have been able to predict how much gas prices would be today as well as how worthless their SUV trade in value would be.

Here is an example. My SO owns an older SUV which is costing her about $75 to fill her tank. I own an econ car which costs me almost $50 to fill my tank. Now, let's assume for a moment that in order for her to get my car it would cost her an additional $2500 on top of the trade in value she is getting for her SUV which is being extremely generous btw. More than likely it would be around an additional $3500. Anyways, 2500/25 = 80 tanks of gas in order to break even. Her one tank of gas currently lasts her about 10 days so that is 800 days until she breaks even. You understand why a lot of people are just opting to stick with their SUVs for the time being?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Sure...and while were at it let's stop paying our power bills. We don't need electricity. After that let's just stop buying food. We can grow our own in our back yards and live off of that. How about medicine? Nah, what's the point? We have immune systems.

It's not like the vast majority of America depends on this sort of thing to survive right? As long as we can argue amongst ourselves that we shouldn't complain because some asshat says that the prices of all this stuff are at the "current market value" then everything will be hunky dorey. No problems. No worries.

So let me get this straight. Because you have become accustomed to living an extravagant lifestyle which requires enormous amounts of energy, oil companies should deliver the oil to you as cheaply as they can rather than trying to maximize their profits. Is this really what you guys are arguing here?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: lupi
What if your town started charging a couple bucks per gallon for water delivered to you house. Gonna stop using water for human consumption, baths, water heater, toilet...

Yeah, didn't think so. Oil may not be quit on the necessity level as water, but in out industrial society it's pretty damned close.

I would start my own water company and create competition, thereby driving the price back down and making a hefty profit. You, on the other hand, would simply whine about it on the internet while paying $2/gallon to drink their water. That's the difference between me and the whiners, I suppose. If you would all spend half the time you currently spend whining on doing something constructive (like... learning how to refine oil or purify water), then you could actually do something about the problem.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Thats so fucking retarded it hardly warrants my response, please diaf

Ah, looks like I touched a nerve with this guy. I can now speculate that Mr. Cuda drives an Escalade 90 miles to work every day. He can see no alternative because he is intellectually lazy and it hasn't yet crossed his mind that he might have to change his lifestyle. He will never change his lifestyle until it's too late and he has already bankrupted himself by purchasing expensive energy to maintain his current lifestyle. No sympathy from me.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Yeah. What are you people thinking. Of course the answer is to let the free market correct the mistakes of...the...free...market?

What a stupid, blindly ideological and impracticable remark.

When the free market is incapable of regulating itself because human greed has run amok, then there needs to be an outside, arbitrary regulator to assist them.

Are you still buying gas? Is someone holding a gun to your head to make you buy said gas? Assuming the answers are yes and no, respectively, then the free market is regulating itself. You are buying gas at the current market value. I can prove this on an abacus.

I'm sick and tired of everyone whining about how greedy oil companies are while they continue to pay the price of gasoline. The goal of oil companies is to make money. You don't like it? Don't buy their product. It couldn't be any simpler. If someone tries to hold a gun to your head to force you to keep pumping gas into your car, then you can ask for government intervention.

Maybe those pumps that were used to drain all of the flooding that you experienced in MO will run on pixie dust next time? Or the bull dozers that were used to help clean up the mess made after the tornadoes wreaked havoc on your area will be able to be powered by smiles? Or the senior citizens living on a fixed income can use hope to fill their tanks or power their furnaces next winter?

I don't live on a flood plain. Therefore, I didn't experience any flooding. I also don't live in a tornado-prone area and haven't even seen one since I've moved here. I chose my living situation in a non-retarded fashion and, therefore, don't need government intervention to help me clean up after myself. As far as the appeal to emotion regarding senior citizens on a fixed income, you again fail to realize that it is the government that created the problem by taxing them while they were employed, thereby disabling them from saving for themselves at a higher rate of return. No, the only one being blindly ideological here is you, since your premise is always that government is the solution without even allowing for the possibility that the government is actually the problem.

most short sighted and narrow minded post ever...

gas is not a free market, its owned by a cartel called OPEC. also millions of people need to get to work and HAVE to buy gas.

and dont even reply with move closer, ride a bike, take the bus.... those stupid arguments do not and can not apply to every person in this country.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Sure...and while were at it let's stop paying our power bills. We don't need electricity. After that let's just stop buying food. We can grow our own in our back yards and live off of that. How about medicine? Nah, what's the point? We have immune systems.

It's not like the vast majority of America depends on this sort of thing to survive right? As long as we can argue amongst ourselves that we shouldn't complain because some asshat says that the prices of all this stuff are at the "current market value" then everything will be hunky dorey. No problems. No worries.

So let me get this straight. Because you have become accustomed to living an extravagant lifestyle which requires enormous amounts of energy, oil companies should deliver the oil to you as cheaply as they can rather than trying to maximize their profits. Is this really what you guys are arguing here?

Using electricity instead of limiting myself to candles and livestock for automation
Buying food instead of growing it myself
Using cars as a means of transportation to get to my job instead of walking 25 miles to and from work
Using medicine to stay healthy instead of shaving off tons of years from my life

If this is what you consider an "extravagant lifestyle" then yes, I guess that is what I am used to and it is what I expect.

Now, let me ask you something. Considering how much this country depends on oil, where is the line drawn when it comes to how much they inflate their prices to make profit before you start to complain? Everyone has their breaking points you know. It seems very apparent that the majority of people out there are past their breaking point when it comes to this topic.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
He has his own well, unlike you dummies! Earthquakes will never ravage him, he's prepared since he installed a seismic repeller. And your stupid expensive food problems are your own, as he bought a house with a massive self sustaining farm run by solar powered robots. He is batman, always prepared unlike us rubes!

Sorry Cyclo, I understand your point but I couldn't resist.

I just think before setting my lifestyle and living situation. Apparently that's asking too much at this point. After all, why shouldn't I build my million dollar house in a flood plain? If it floods there, the government will bail me out of my own stupidity. If I build a wooden house on the plains of Oklahoma, the government will help me when a tornado inevitably comes and rips it apart. All of these things people would obviously know if they spent 3 seconds to think about it, but they don't bother because there are no consequences for their idiocy.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Citrix
most short sighted and narrow minded post ever...

gas is not a free market, its owned by a cartel called OPEC. also millions of people need to get to work and HAVE to buy gas.

OPEC can and should charge as much as they can for oil without diminishing its profits. So should oil companies. McDonald's (which has a much higher profit margin than any oil company on the planet) should charge as much for a Big Mac as it can without diminishing its profits. That's the job of a company: to make as much money as possible. Therefore, if a profit maximum occurs at $10/gallon, that is what they should charge, period. If you don't like that they make a marginal profit of only 10% on their absolutely ludicrous spending, then don't buy their product.

and dont even reply with move closer, ride a bike, take the bus.... those stupid arguments do not and can not apply to every person in this country.

The idea that you HAVE to buy gas is demonstrably incorrect, as there are always alternatives: walk, ride a bike, move closer to work, use mass transit, switch jobs, carpool, buy a more efficient car, work from home, or buck up and pay for gas. The problem is not that you CAN'T do these things, it's that you don't want to do them. This is because you want your life a certain way and are inflexible in maintaining your lifestyle, not because there are no alternatives. "Don't even reply with..." is simply the intellectually challenged person's way of saying "Don't make this argument because it's devastating to mine." Tell me WHY it doesn't apply.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Using electricity instead of limiting myself to candles and livestock for automation
Buying food instead of growing it myself
Using cars as a means of transportation to get to my job instead of walking 25 miles to and from work
Using medicine to stay healthy instead of shaving off tons of years from my life

If this is what you consider an "extravagant lifestyle" then yes, I guess that is what I am used to and it is what I expect.

You don't just expect this lifestyle - you feel entitled to it. You feel that you should always be able to maintain this lifestyle regardless of any constraints. I felt more or less the same way until about two months ago when my car died. I haven't had one since. I live in the city about 3 miles from work, so I can walk, bike, or take the light rail as I see fit. I also work from home a good portion of the time because my job allows me to do so. Bottom line: you are not entitled to your current comfortable lifestyle, though you can always change your lifestyle.

Now, let me ask you something. Considering how much this country depends on oil, where is the line drawn when it comes to how much they inflate their prices to make profit before you start to complain? Everyone has their breaking points you know. It seems very apparent that the majority of people out there are past their breaking point when it comes to this topic.

They can inflate their prices as much as they want, just as I am free to not buy their product. I don't complain about the price of anything. This is because something is worth whatever someone will pay for it. If you go into a department store and see a shirt that is on sale for $5 and it says on the tag "Compare at: $100," what is the value of that shirt - $5 or $100? It's $5 if someone pays $5 for it. It's $100 if someone pays $100 for it. Same with oil. If you're willing to pay it, that's what it's worth. If you think all of these oil companies are so ridiculous in putting prices so high, try starting your own oil company and see if you can produce oil as cheaply as they do. I have all of the training and education to start one, but I also know that I could never hope to compete with them because they are exceedingly efficient and produce a barrel of oil for a very, very low price.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: PingSpike
He has his own well, unlike you dummies! Earthquakes will never ravage him, he's prepared since he installed a seismic repeller. And your stupid expensive food problems are your own, as he bought a house with a massive self sustaining farm run by solar powered robots. He is batman, always prepared unlike us rubes!

Sorry Cyclo, I understand your point but I couldn't resist.

I just think before setting my lifestyle and living situation. Apparently that's asking too much at this point. After all, why shouldn't I build my million dollar house in a flood plain? If it floods there, the government will bail me out of my own stupidity. If I build a wooden house on the plains of Oklahoma, the government will help me when a tornado inevitably comes and rips it apart. All of these things people would obviously know if they spent 3 seconds to think about it, but they don't bother because there are no consequences for their idiocy.

While building in disaster prone area isn't good at face value I think you look a bit beyond that. Taking Katrina as an example the city itself didn't upgrade and maintain it's flood defense systems. Why? Corruption. Why didn't the federal government properly respond the the disaster? They weren't ready and were largely ignorant of the impending disaster.

So, who's fault is it exactly? I personally don't have a problem with N.O residents suing the shit out of the local government, state and federal. They deserve to be bailed out.

 

[Thump553]

Quite a few posters here (CycloWizard, you are one) either don't understand what I posted or are intentionally distorting the subject.

My argument here is not directed towards supply and demand of oil, or what people drive-those are issues for another day-or at least another thread.

My point was there is a whole lot more transfers going on, due to speculation, and that the price of oil (and gas, diesel, heating oil, etc.) are being distorted and driven up way beyond what actual supply and demand would account for. To use very rough numbers (I'm too lazy to look up the exact figures), just last week oil was around $120/barrel, it is now closing in on $140, roughly a 16% increase in just one week (over 8000% on an annualized basis). Has there been a 16% increase in actual world demand in one week? Hardly. Has there been a major diaster that would curtail world oil production? Nope.

Restricting the speculation would generate immediate positive effects for all concerned (except for the speculators). To me it's a no-brainer. We certainly have the power to regulate US markets, and to bring pressure upon Dubai if in fact that is the problem market-a point I will not concede since I know it is simple for average individual US investors to speculate in oil-on the margin.

Straightening out this financial market would take a lot of pressure off the dollar and the US economy.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Using electricity instead of limiting myself to candles and livestock for automation
Buying food instead of growing it myself
Using cars as a means of transportation to get to my job instead of walking 25 miles to and from work
Using medicine to stay healthy instead of shaving off tons of years from my life

If this is what you consider an "extravagant lifestyle" then yes, I guess that is what I am used to and it is what I expect.

You don't just expect this lifestyle - you feel entitled to it.

You are absolutely nuts. What do you expect? Do you want everyone to fall back into a mentality where they are satisfied with living like we did in the stone age? If not then where is the line drawn for you? Obviously that line is not drawn when it comes to food, electricity, transportation, and medicine so where is it?

 

[Michael]

I'm confused. To rein in speculation (no proof that "specualtion" is really driving prices and, if it is, it'll reverse soon enough) you want to raise margin requirements for the exchanges in the USA? Plus toss in additional regulations?

Since the USA is not the sole source for this type of exchange, any such changes will simply drive the business elsewhere. That means a loss of American jobs, taxes and what control does exist today.

Increasing margin requirments will drive the cost up for the businesses that use the futures and other contracts to lock in prices. So you'll add additional costs to already shakey industries such as the airlines.

There always will be some speculation, gambling seems to be part of human nature. However, just about every study I have seen says the underlying reason for the increase in the price of gas is an increase in demand without a strong enough increase in supply. Toss in a very risky supply (Iraq, Iran, Nigeria etc.) and I can easily see where the large increases have come from.

Michael

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: Michael
I'm confused. To rein in speculation (no proof that "specualtion" is really driving prices and, if it is, it'll reverse soon enough) you want to raise margin requirements for the exchanges in the USA? Plus toss in additional regulations?

Since the USA is not the sole source for this type of exchange, any such changes will simply drive the business elsewhere. That means a loss of American jobs, taxes and what control does exist today.

Increasing margin requirments will drive the cost up for the businesses that use the futures and other contracts to lock in prices. So you'll add additional costs to already shakey industries such as the airlines.

There always will be some speculation, gambling seems to be part of human nature. However, just about every study I have seen says the underlying reason for the increase in the price of gas is an increase in demand without a strong enough increase in supply. Toss in a very risky supply (Iraq, Iran, Nigeria etc.) and I can easily see where the large increases have come from.

Michael

Interesting you'd mention the airline industry as some sort of potential victim if speculation were to undergo greater regulation. Not sure if you knew this but the airliners are clawing for breath beneath the weight of unnaturally high oil prices; something tells me they'd have trouble agreeing with you.

 

[NeoV]

Cyclo = Ed Begley jr?

People can't just stop buying gas, it's not that simple. People can't just stop heating their homes, it's not that simple.

Oh, and here's a clue, Cyclo - the oil companies are not the same people making tons of money in oil speculation - so please get a clue about the topic before you go telling us all how free market economies work, how great your life is, and how much smarter than us you are.

 

[StageLeft]

Hilarity ensues. Please tell me how the UNITED STATES is going to take a trader in Japan or South Korea that he has to lower what he's willing to pay for oil.

Up until recently I was laughed at.

Up until recently? Actually, you're not far off from the $5 prediction, certainly, but the US would be merely spitting at a torch to try and address what the rest of the world is doing here, too.

In the long run, I think higher gas prices will help our society...

I do agree. I think it's time our profligacy and greed was smacked and it's currently smarting. I think we may all emerge spirtually grown from this experience.

just like tech and housing, there will be a huge bursting bubble at some point, the speculators will lose their shirts on it.

Agree.

Everyone knew gas was going to go up, but the breakneck pace it has occured at, and for no particular reason, has left people little time to adapt even if they can afford too.

If they all knew why did they continue to buy large vehicles? Explorer sales peaked I think about two years ago. People DID know, they just DIDN'T give a sh*t because most people have no damn sense for the future at all and that's a point easily proven (personal debt, weight, other bad habits, etc.). When you try to push a horse and it doesn't move you whip the thing and then it will move. High oil is a whipping and we need it.

Oil may not be quit on the necessity level as water, but in out industrial society it's pretty damned close.

I agree with this. I still mostly want to see the market correct this and I do think it will, but this is a product that is as close to necessity as most of the truly dire ones and the only way to truly stabilize it long term is to probably get the hell away from it. We are all reminded, as we were 30 years ago (but chose to forget) how desperately we need oil and what have we done in 30 years to ween ourselves? Nothing. Like addicts we consume more than we did, and not just from growth;cars actually average worse MPG than they did 20 years ago. Are we so stupid? The writing is on the wall. The US needs greater energy stability/independence. This was indeed bound to happen sometime. Might as well get it out of the way now.

 

[idiotekniQues]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Citrix
most short sighted and narrow minded post ever...

gas is not a free market, its owned by a cartel called OPEC. also millions of people need to get to work and HAVE to buy gas.

OPEC can and should charge as much as they can for oil without diminishing its profits. So should oil companies. McDonald's (which has a much higher profit margin than any oil company on the planet) should charge as much for a Big Mac as it can without diminishing its profits. That's the job of a company: to make as much money as possible. Therefore, if a profit maximum occurs at $10/gallon, that is what they should charge, period. If you don't like that they make a marginal profit of only 10% on their absolutely ludicrous spending, then don't buy their product.

and dont even reply with move closer, ride a bike, take the bus.... those stupid arguments do not and can not apply to every person in this country.

The idea that you HAVE to buy gas is demonstrably incorrect, as there are always alternatives: walk, ride a bike, move closer to work, use mass transit, switch jobs, carpool, buy a more efficient car, work from home, or buck up and pay for gas. The problem is not that you CAN'T do these things, it's that you don't want to do them. This is because you want your life a certain way and are inflexible in maintaining your lifestyle, not because there are no alternatives. "Don't even reply with..." is simply the intellectually challenged person's way of saying "Don't make this argument because it's devastating to mine." Tell me WHY it doesn't apply.

you dont HAVE to breathe either do you.

anybody who says that anybody can just switch jobs or move at a moment's notice is just being stupid. life just doesn't work that way.

can some people move and switch jobs easily and choose not to but still complain? sure. can all? not even close.

to make blanket statements like you do without any qualifying circumstances is just asinine, stupid and ridiculous.

 

[Michael]

Interesting you'd mention the airline industry as some sort of potential victim if speculation were to undergo greater regulation. Not sure if you knew this but the airliners are clawing for breath beneath the weight of unnaturally high oil prices; something tells me they'd have trouble agreeing with you.

You must have reading comprehension problems.

I said that businesses like airlines will incurr additonal expenses if margin requirments are raised. They will have to commit more capital to hedge or hedge less if they do not have the capital.

Obviously, airlines would like to pay less for fuel.

I also said that "speculation" as a reason is unproven. What is being proposed will raise the cost and will drive the business out of the USA. It may (most probable) have no impact on the price of gas.

I have actually been trying to read an understand what the volume of speculation is in those markets vs. businesses hedging as an ordingary course of business. There certainly is speculation, but the bulk of the demand seems to be from businesses using the exchanges in the ordinary course of business.

At most, I have seen some support for speculation accelerating the upwards move. If this follows the normal trend, that bubble will burst and the system will correct. I would concede that prices may not go down much if they are what they should be, they may have just arrived there faster.

Michael