When or Can a unified Europe dethrone the US?

[Rison]

You are wrong, my friend. Our GDP is around 10 trillion greenbacks. Our gov't budget is 3 trillion dineros. I've never been to Europe and I'm sure it's a great place, but I'm making too much franklins here. I might indulge in your culture sometime in the future, but right now you can't seem to get enough of ours. I've seen the BBC channel here in the states, and the shows are quite banal. Very, very boring, I must say. And I only check out the American-Heritage dictionary since they're smart enough to put in the latest words invented in the states, such as download, browsers, phat, etc...

I heard that colgate and crest are doing brisk business in the UK and Dove in France.

As far as economics is concerned (again), Germany is around 20%, my bad. If you don't believe me multiply 82 million by 25620. Then compare that to 31910+ multiplied by 280 million and you'll get the picture. Those numbers are still quite small.

If you want to compare nominal numbers we can. If you want to compare real numbers, we can do that too. The fact is that Europe is still smaller in every way except population and geographical size. You're too different to form a coherent challenge to the United States. The euro unit is falling against the dollar. That may be good news for your exporters but it's raising prices at home. Europe will never form the unity or might similar to that of the United States.

 

[Texmaster]

<< The countries that have adopted the euro - collectively known as the 'eurozone' - already form a larger economic base than the United States. Stuff the United Kingdom and the other missing nations in there in a couple of year's time, it will be noticeably larger. Europe's population is higher too. >>



From what I understand, Europe's population may be larger now, but the poulation is going down.

And not all countries have adopted the Euro. I doubt there will be any real growth potentional from the Euro for at least another 10 years.



<< It won't be really a country, or even a close-knit federation, the way the US is though. Fragmentation will prevent the formation of a unified state in the foreseeable future. Military, it would take years for the nascent Euro army to be able to launch operations on the scale the US can. Whilst the British (especially) and the French have really quite respectable forces, the other countries are either obliged not to (Germany) or have far more comprehensive social provisions that preclude large military budgets (Scandinavia). There's not even cohesion on policy: look at the way the Brits acted entirely separately from the rest of the EU in Afghanistan. >>



I'm sorry but I dont see Europe getting into an Arms race with the US or even building up their forces. The governments in place
right now do not support a philospshy of heavy spending when it comes to the military.



<< Besides, why does it matter? European social conditions and public services make the US look backward at the moment anyway. >>




I tried to be nice but now I understand Rison's postings to you.

Now the true elite snobbish attitude of Europe rears its ugly head. You complain about America's arrogance then you stick your own big nose in the sky.

You self righteous European snob. Grow up.


BTW, I've been to Europe, and when I wasn't gasping for breath on a hot day around sweaty smelly taxi drivers who never heard of soap, I was trying to find a hotel that didn't have a "please don't feed the rats" sign.

 

[TheOmegaCode]

Let's put it this way. We don't have WTO's because everyone is afraid that the Europe is going to be the economic super power. I'd spend more time figuring out whether or not China will be. Serious, if China were to industrialise... watch out!

 

[Haircut]

I don't think that the EU will challenge the US for a while yet. The GDP of the EU is roughly the same as that of the US, maybe slightly smaller, but the Euro will not be a strong currency while the wealthier countries of northern/western Europe support the other countries.
The 10 countries that are expected to be admitted to the EU within the next few years and then join the Euro in 2008 are mostly eastern-bloc countries with weaker economies, so this situation will get worse IMHO.

I think the the UK has done the right thing by not joining the Euro at the minute, especially considering we our interest rates are expected to diverge further from the Euro-zone this year. Economic integration is a nice idea, but I can't see it working too well.

 

[shifrbv]

But we are certainly on a path of economic crisis. Less than two years ago we were marveling at the possibility of endless technological/industrial progress and the benefits that would be distributed throughout the population. Now we are embarking on the largest (if passed as legislation) military buildup since Reagan I. Our president has named adversaries (INKI) but the threat they present is highly questionable. We are on pace to $400B annual spending on defense and annual deficeits (assuming you don't include SS/Medicare). And then when the Boomers retire en mass we are going to be in a world of hurt.

Finally, someone who doesn't have their head up their ass here. Young people in the US better wise up. Technology is for the most part winding down. What's there to replace it and bring about the next wave? Nothing but more and more taxes to pay for all the crap we're spending now. And increased competition everywhere you look. China says they won't accept any US biotech. EU says they want to see US corporate taxation changed to more closely match theirs. 20 years ago, we could say piss off and do our own thing. Today it's not that easy. Trade agreements and organizations define the new rules. Hmm, I see a lower standard of living on the horizon. Sadly, I think myself and this guy are about the only ones who do.

 

[Passions]

European pansies will never dethrone the US. They need the US to bail em out of every war, feed their people, stablize their money, give them jobs, etc. Then, they turn on us and blast our culture, HAH!

US ownz Europeans. All your base are belong to us.

 

[Texmaster]

<< European pansies will never dethrone the US. They need the US to bail em out of every war, feed their people, stablize their money, give them jobs, etc. Then, they turn on us and blast our culture, HAH!

US ownz Europeans. All your base are belong to us. >>



LOL Sometimes thats the only way to get through to them.

We were accused of arrogance before WTC and after. I'm not afraid to be proud of my country and its accomplishments.

 

[GoldMember]

I agree.. those damn frenchies are so snob. We fricken bail them out from under Hitlers nuts and now they fricken snob us off. It's like go back to wearing your perfume` and not showering ya damn stink bombs. We lost how many of our men due to helping Europe in WW2.
Sheesh.

 

[Hammer]

Bah Finland. Me and 4 other guys could go over there, kick a$$, and make it the 51st state in under a week.



<< It aint as simple as that. For example, Finland has significantly higher tax-rate than USA does, yet Finland is considered to be the most competetive nation in the world, surpassing USA. Taxation is seen as one of the factors limiting Finland competetiveness, but even with high taxation, Finland is in the top in international comparisons. >>

 

[Rahminator]

It's funny when you guys say that UE could never ever dethrone the US. Times are changing and history likes to repeat itself and one day you will wake up and some other country will be the superpower - like it happened many times before. Britain was once so powerful that it ruled the seas and had like half of this world under their control. Just a lil bit over a decade ago there was a balance of power in the world (Russia & US), but that has changed in a blink of an eye. I'm not saying that UE will definitely dethrone the US, I'm just dissing the idiots who say that UE has absolutely no chance of becoming a greater power in near or far future.

Or maybe the terrorists will hack dubbya's lappy and send off all nuclear warheads annihilating everything and anything on this planet :Q.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Or maybe the terrorists will hack dubbya's lappy and send off all nuclear warheads annihilating everything and anything on this planet :Q. >>




You've been watching to many Austin Powers' re-runs.

 

[RolyL]

You are wrong, my friend. Our GDP is...

Oh, surely you mean the U.S. Department of Labor is wrong? I was merely citing their statistics.

Geographical size? Europe (not Eurasia) is much smaller than the US. However, I agree with your comments on the lack of unity. Not in the foreseeable future, as I said a while back.

BBC World is a not terribly good clone of CNN, agreed. The UK's most popular channels, BBC1 and ITV, are completely intellectually vapid tosh. BBC2 though, for anyone with any hint of a capable inquisitive mind, is inarguably unsurpassed in the world of broadcasting. 'Public Service Broadcasting', as instituted by Lord Reith in the 1930s, shouldn't even be compared to the anodyne dirt peddled by virtually every other network. It's hardly a fair comparison: the taxpayer pays for service and the Beeb is obliged to 'benefit the public'. No commercials, no politically motivated garbage, just sheer quality informative programming. Yeah I'm biased, but I freely admit most of the UK's programming is weak. BBC2 (and its BBC Radio 4 sister) have absolutely no competition whatsoever in the realm of quality programming. I've been to the States many times, all around Europe, and the Middle East, and nothing begins to compare if you're after classy information broadcasting.

I tried to be nice but now I understand Rison's postings to you.

Now the true elite snobbish attitude of Europe rears its ugly head. You complain about America's arrogance then you stick your own big nose in the sky.

You self righteous European snob. Grow up.

BTW, I've been to Europe, and when I wasn't gasping for breath on a hot day around sweaty smelly taxi drivers who never heard of soap, I was trying to find a hotel that didn't have a "please don't feed the rats" sign.

Says someone with Patriotism is Forever as their sig . Come on, you're making me laugh. I challenge you to find anything in my post that is identifiably childish. I'm 21, I admit. Yeah Europe (OK - we) have our problems (like one of mine is identifying myself more closely with Americans than Europeans believe it or not), but we also enjoy certain benefits. We all know about Medicare (hey, even Homer Simpson cracks jokes about it). We all know about the lack of social provision. We all know about the generally poor quality of your highschools (not that the UK's are brilliant, mind). No, we're not perfect, but neither are you. Learn this. Now. The world's a diverse place, and American significance may be rather more ephemeral than we think. The Roman empire lasted 400 years or so. The Spanish and British not quite so long. Ever take History classes? Mongolia (as it was) had a vast, vast empire that once threatened the very cultural existence of Europe (they were turned back only in Hungary I think).

 

[Novgrod]

first, it strikes me as fantastically unlikely that germans will get along with french will get along with spanish will get along with italians etc. Second, don't forget that the US population is going to continue to grow, thanks to immigration, faster than Europe's. Third, the US has a huge head start and a huge advantage in per capita GDP.

Fourth, not all Europe has the Protestant Work Ethic, and they are drifting towards socialism, which is never beneficial for industrial growth (don't tell me about the first two five year plans; they were short-term gains from industrialization, and more totalitarianism than socialism).

Fifth, as has been pointed out, China is a much bigger threat than Europe, since they've been averaging 9% GDP growth annually, which is insane.

I don't think that any of them has a chance. China is profiting from industrialization, which will soon prove hollow without private enterprise, and Europe for the reasons above won't compete.

The main threats to continued US unipolar domination of the world economically are its continued progression down a big government path and the lack of new markets.

just one man's opinion

 

[crzyc]

there shouldn't be a winner, world economic growth is good for everyone. i hope the EU and the Euro do well!

 

[Texmaster]

<< Says someone with Patriotism is Forever as their sig . >>



You forgot NEVER FORGET

Thats in reference to the WTC attacks you MORON. Sorry ATOT doesn't give me the ability to draw it in crayon for you.



<< Come on, you're making me laugh. I challenge you to find anything in my post that is identifiably childish. >>



I just did.



<< I'm 21, I admit. >>



There's two.

What a shocker. When you get out in the real world, let us know.



<< Yeah Europe (OK - we) have our problems (like one of mine is identifying myself more closely with Americans than Europeans believe it or not), >>



Not. But please continue....



<< but we also enjoy certain benefits. We all know about Medicare (hey, even Homer Simpson cracks jokes about it). We all know about the lack of social provision. We all know about the generally poor quality of your highschools (not that the UK's are brilliant, mind). No, we're not perfect, but neither are you. >>



I never said we were. You were the one taking pot shots as our social status and our patriotism. Try looking up the word "instigator".



<< Learn this. Now. The world's a diverse place, and American significance may be rather more ephemeral than we think. >>



Really. Then why do European and middle Eastern countries cry out about cultural annihilation at the hands of US influence?



<< The Roman empire lasted 400 years or so. The Spanish and British not quite so long. Ever take History classes? Mongolia (as it was) had a vast, vast empire that once threatened the very cultural existence of Europe (they were turned back only in Hungary I think). >>



I deal with the here and now. You want to deal in the future, go talk to a palm reader.

Right now, America's power is here to stay so suck it up and learn that social superiorty is not a popular characteristic to display.

 

[RolyL]

Oh dear Texmaster, I thought you were an OK kinda guy until now. Clearly we all make mistakes

<< Come on, you're making me laugh. I challenge you to find anything in my post that is identifiably childish. >>

I just did.

You're being logically inconsistent. Provide a direct quotation and identify its juvenile elements.

When you get out in the real world, let us know.

By implication, you're suggesting your seniority means your opinions are necessarily more worthwhile than mine. Fine, OK, whatever makes you happy; quality of argument and substance are far more important IMHO. You're yet to pass an erudite comment.

I never said we were. You were the one taking pot shots as our social status and our patriotism. Try looking up the word "instigator".

I was responding to jingoistic comments made earlier.

You forgot <B>NEVER FOGET</B>

Thats in reference to the WTC attacks you MORON. Sorry ATOT doesn't give me the ability to draw it in crayon for you.

I'm sorry for being a 'moron', albeit one studying Classics at Oxford University with 5 straight-A A-levels (harder than SATs) and an S-level (much harder than an SAT). I'll give you my IP for a IM if you want proof of Oxford. I think if we read our respective posts it's pretty clear by my language there's at least a small element of education here. From yours however, intellectual development seems to have stopped rather early in life. Convince me I'm wrong, go on.

<< The Roman empire lasted 400 years or so. The Spanish and British not quite so long. Ever take History classes? Mongolia (as it was) had a vast, vast empire that once threatened the very cultural existence of Europe (they were turned back only in Hungary I think). >>

I deal with the here and now. You want to deal in the future, go talk to a palm reader.

Right now, America's power is here to stay so suck it up and learn that social superiorty is not a popular characteristic to display.

I believe you have a term something along the lines of intellectually-limited 'redneck'. We have a potentially interesting study in its demonstration here. We ignore the lessons of history at our peril. Then again, maybe Henry Ford was simply promulgating an ingrained American view when he said 'History is more or less bunk'

Texmaster, you really are demonstrably a f***ing idiot. I don't really care if I get banned for writing this. This conversation with you is utterly unfulfilling. I have better things to do.

Dear other people: going on this thread's evidence, I apologise for my strident and seemingly bigoted views. Refer to my other posts to see I'm usually quite calm. However, indefensible ignorant nationalism really, really irritates me, and unfortunately we seem to be witnessing a few examples. Yes, I can be accused of this too, but they are in response to what I see as intolerable mistruths and blatant tub-thumping. That is inarguable from the evidence.

 

[RolyL]

What's with the italics and the HTML editor? Arghhh.

 

[killmeplease]

Probably never.

Every time European governments sense that people have money to spend, they tend to tax it out of them.

I think U.S. Democrats view Europe as their utopia.

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< But we are certainly on a path of economic crisis. Less than two years ago we were marveling at the possibility of endless technological/industrial progress and the benefits that would be distributed throughout the population. Now we are embarking on the largest (if passed as legislation) military buildup since Reagan I. Our president has named adversaries (INKI) but the threat they present is highly questionable. We are on pace to $400B annual spending on defense and annual deficeits (assuming you don't include SS/Medicare). And then when the Boomers retire en mass we are going to be in a world of hurt. >>


So we are now at "all stop" on developing new technology. I don't think so. Furthermore the implication that military spending and buildup somehow negates technological progresss is ludicrous. How much of our current technology stems from DoD and NASA research and development? To say that INKI is not a threat is ignorant. That's right, ignorant. The threat assesments for these countries and others are very clear. That's the UNCLASS version for you folks. I do not agree however with deficit spending ( no matter how big my pay raise is). Greenspan says it's not good, so that's good enough for me. Personally, I expect a tax increase.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Oh dear Texmaster, I thought you were an OK kinda guy until now. Clearly we all make mistakes >>



If thats an apology its a pretty pathetic one. I can only chalk it up to your "social superiority".

I had to apologize today to Nemesis77:

You are abolutely right I did agree with him

My Apologies

Thats how you apologize my socially inept little friend.



<< You're being logically inconsistent. Provide a direct quotation and identify its juvenile elements. >>



You want quotes? No problem!

European social conditions and public services make the US look backward at the moment anyway

Childish and ignorant doesn't even Begin to explain this one. How about another?

As for your sadly typically blinkered American views on culture and intelligence, you clearly haven't appreciated the delights of Paris, London, Rome, Cologne, Oxford, or Venice.

This one is just childish arrogance. And another?

Learn this, and stop being so damn parochial. Look this word up in the Oxford English Dictionary online if your cultural superiority doesn't extend to include polysyllabic words.

Your liberal arrogance is once again on display for all to see. What's sad is you probably are only barely aware of it. Its a pathetic display of arrogance coupled with childish snobbery that makes you look not only intellectually inferior but socially inferior.



<< By implication, you're suggesting your seniority means your opinions are necessarily more worthwhile than mine. >>



No, what I'm saying is that you don't have a clue how to treat people. Arrogant and ignorant displays of superiority dont cut it in the real world. Only experience will help you understand this.



<< Fine, OK, whatever makes you happy; quality of argument and substance are far more important IMHO. You're yet to pass an erudite comment. >>



Well lets see, you ran away from my comments about the true state of Europe's population, you ran away from my analysis of Europe's governements and how your idea of Europe regaining military dominance in the world with the current governments is ludicrus.

Its hard to debate with you if you aviod my arguements

And my arguements are so simple even you can understand. The arrogance you display here (well documented) is embarassing to say the least. Only time in the real world will humble you enough to realize this.



<< I was responding to jingoistic comments made earlier. >>



LOL Oh the "he started it" defense. How old are you?



<< I'm sorry for being a 'moron', albeit one studying Classics at Oxford University with 5 straight-A A-levels (harder than SATs) and an S-level (much harder than an SAT). >>



ROFLOL!!!! Oh my what an elitest SNOB! LOL



<< I'll give you my IP for a IM if you want proof of Oxford. I think if we read our respective posts it's pretty clear by my language there's at least a small element of education here. From yours however, intellectual development seems to have stopped rather early in life. Convince me I'm wrong, go on. >>



See thats the difference between being smart and being idiotic. I have nothing to prove to you. You would be very hard pressed to match my master degrees in Commmunication and Body Language. And my salery with my toys reflects that very well.

That tonka toy computer of yours is a glorious symbolic statement to your ignorance and superiority complex.



<< I believe you have a term something along the lines of intellectually-limited 'redneck'. >>



More like intellectually and socially challenged Snobs in Europe LOL I can just hear your nose getting higher in the air.



<< We have a potentially interesting study in its demonstration here. We ignore the lessons of history at our peril. Then again, maybe Henry Ford was simply promulgating an ingrained American view when he said 'History is more or less bunk' >>



And how does America fit the Roman Empire thesis of yours? The Roman Empire was ruled by an Emperor (with the Senate playing a very small role), conquered lands and mixed with the local conquered peoples to keep desention at a minumum. Romans burned Greek Libraries, treated women as property, and bought and sold slaves. Now please use that intellectual noggin and explain your comparison. I can't wait to hear this.



<< Texmaster, you really are demonstrably a f***ing idiot. I don't really care if I get banned for writing this. This conversation with you is utterly unfulfilling. I have better things to do. >>




Whats this? The snob stoops to this "redneck's" humble level? LOL!!! Your attitude here is priceless. You are a shining example of European arrogance and childish ignorance.



<< Dear other people: going on this thread's evidence, I apologise for my strident and seemingly bigoted views. Refer to my other posts to see I'm usually quite calm. However, indefensible ignorant nationalism really, really irritates me, and unfortunately we seem to be witnessing a few examples. Yes, I can be accused of this too, but they are in response to what I see as intolerable mistruths and blatant tub-thumping. That is inarguable from the evidence. >>



Don't worry, no one is prepared to elect you to any office here! LOL

Learn this: Booksmarts are not enough in the real world. Social graces, manners, and diplomacy will get you farther ahead than 10 years at Oxford.

 

[raz]

<< Social graces, manners, and diplomacy will get you farther ahead than 10 years at Oxford. >>


And you're a fine example of each?

 

[Hammer]

I agree with the Chief on the first part. INKI are the like flash points for our next regional war. But I am particularly worried about North Korea. During the Cold War, at least we understood the Soviet motivation. Our deterrence patrols would go out and keep the peace because the Soviets new we would use them and the consequences for them. NK, on the other hands, does give a damn about deterrence. Their leader fear thier own people and losing the power they have more than death or us. So what do we do about NK? Well lets go over the basic US policy options:

We can a) wait them out, hoping the regime topples before the can threaten US interests (we can always hope)
b) seek some sort of settlement through diplomacy (not likely)
c) impose UN sanctions (been there, done that)
d) beef up our military (doing it now)
e) counterproliferation strikes against NK military installations (huge escalation, certain war)
f) a negotiated reduction of the US military presense it SK (risky)

The NK NWP is further along the both Iran and Iraq. NK is also focusing more on long range ballistic missile technology while Iran and Iraq are focusing more on theater missiles. I & I want to go after Israel and our troops, NK wants the whole enchilada, the continental US.

As for why deficit spending is good in a recession, I'll leave that for another post -- but it is.



<< So we are now at "all stop" on developing new technology. I don't think so. Furthermore the implication that military spending and buildup somehow negates technological progresss is ludicrous. How much of our current technology stems from DoD and NASA research and development? To say that INKI is not a threat is ignorant. That's right, ignorant. The threat assesments for these countries and others are very clear. That's the UNCLASS version for you folks. I do not agree however with deficit spending ( no matter how big my pay raise is). Greenspan says it's not good, so that's good enough for me. Personally, I expect a tax increase. >>

 

[Warblad13]

never

 

[Oakenfold]

Okay here's what I don't understand, europe has more restrictive laws on privacy over the net and such...but they have like weird FETISH sex stuff in like what would be the equivalent in a super wal-mart? someone answer me this!!! IT"S JUST WRONG! I mean who wants to see someone's grandma looking at that crap while you shop?

 

[LukFilm]

It is predicted (NY Times a while ago) that China will surpass the USA in 2040. How about that? Not impossible, I think.