When or Can a unified Europe dethrone the US?

[Nemesis77]

<< Nemesis-

The only reason for Finlands competitiveness is Nokia. Practically half of the world owns a Nokia phone >>



actually, more like 37% .

Nokia brings more jobs, money and other things to Finland, but it doesn't directly increase our competetiveness. USA has alot more bigger companies that Finland does, so it should be even more competetive. But it isn't. You could say that Nokia wouldn't be so succesfull if Finland didn't have as good competetiveness as it does.

How could such technological giant as Nokia be born in Finland if we have such a crushing taxation? While low taxation naturally helps the economy to grow, it ain't as simple as lower taxes = increased GDP. For example, in Finland large part of the collected tax-money is spent on education and such. That means that large part of finns have a high quality, high level education behind them, and that helps the economy as well.

And there are other succesful companies in Finland, Nokia is just the most famous one.

 

[RolyL]

The countries that have adopted the euro - collectively known as the 'eurozone' - already form a larger economic base than the United States. Stuff the United Kingdom and the other missing nations in there in a couple of year's time, it will be noticeably larger. Europe's population is higher too.

It won't be really a country, or even a close-knit federation, the way the US is though. Fragmentation will prevent the formation of a unified state in the foreseeable future. Military, it would take years for the nascent Euro army to be able to launch operations on the scale the US can. Whilst the British (especially) and the French have really quite respectable forces, the other countries are either obliged not to (Germany) or have far more comprehensive social provisions that preclude large military budgets (Scandinavia). There's not even cohesion on policy: look at the way the Brits acted entirely separately from the rest of the EU in Afghanistan.

Besides, why does it matter? European social conditions and public services make the US look backward at the moment anyway. It's alright for Anandtech Forum members - we're all middle-ish class - but look at the suffering many face near and below the poverty line. If a country's prime directive is to increase the prosperity and happiness of its members, then I see little immediate benefit of integration for much of Europe.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< um finland is a country of 5 million people, thats puny. they only have 90thousand foriengers living there, thats puny! bad example >>



Hey, you don't have to be big to be competetive

 

[StageLeft]

<< 20 years is quite a long time. Who knows what will happen really, and anything can happen. But europe will never be more powerful than the US. Never will happen. >>

Man, some people here clearly have never taken a history course. World powers can change in the blink of an eye. What was the US 200 years ago? A pissant effort trying to split from the motherland. What was Russia in the latter half of most of the last century? A major superpower. Now look at it.

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<< I don't think either that China could challenge USA or United Europe. At least the current China we know and love. I honestly think that sooner or later, modern China will implode. The communist regime can't control the nation forever. I would say that withing 10 years we will see major change in China. Revolution, civil war or something like that. Or the communist party could just increase the civil- and political liberties so much that it couldn't be considered to be same country anymore. >>



You mean like Tienamen Square?

government ain't going to let that happen..They are having to reform some of their ways though since the Olympics are heading that way >>



It has happened before, it can happen again. And next time, it might succeed. The reason why the communist regime subdued the Tiananmen Square so brutally was because it reminded them how the communists themselves came to power. It was the students and young generation that brought them to power, and it was the students that were in the Tiananmen Square. Either we will have similar incident happen again, or once the current 15-20 year olds enter politics, we will see some true reform. The Olympics might also act as a catalyst.

 

[Nefrodite]

Hey, you don't have to be big to be competetive


things don't scale perfectly remember? if the us were composed of the same 5 million population and relied primarily on its big automakers it would be in the same position, but if you increase the number of fins to 250 million, do you think that nokia would be able to sell enough cellphones to keep em all employed? hehL


besides, they only spend 2% of their gnp on military btw whats the us %? i'm too lazy to look it up

 

[Texmaster]

<< Not a chance in hell unless they stop punishing success and drifting more and more into socialism. >>



Agreed. Besides, pigs will fly before European coutries agree to something more than being jealous of America's success.

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<< Not a chance in hell unless they stop punishing success and drifting more and more into socialism. >>



Agreed. Besides, pigs will fly before European coutries agree to something more than being jealous of America's success. >>



There you are! I was wondering when you would make your presence felt in this thread

Like I already told, Europe is not drifting towards socialism

 

[Nemesis77]

<<
Hey, you don't have to be big to be competetive


things don't scale perfectly remember? if the us were composed of the same 5 million population and relied primarily on its big automakers it would be in the same position, but if you increase the number of fins to 250 million, do you think that nokia would be able to sell enough cellphones to keep em all employed? hehL >>



If there were 250 million finns, we would have more big companies besides Nokia. And Nokia doesn't employ all finns . If I remember correctly, they employ about 30.000 people in Finland. With subcontractors, that figure would propably be about... 50-60.000. I guess.

 

[Aelus]

A country shouldn't be scared of a wealthy neighbour, be it china or europe or whatever. Remember, the richer your neighbour is, the more you can sell him. Sure there would be people who lose their jobs because they produced inferior products, but there would be new jobs which have their origin in selling innovative products to the rich neighbour.

Aelus

 

[walkur]

It will probably not be in my life-time that the european countries will give up their sovereignty.
Tradition weighs heavy. Some countries are still monarchies like the UK, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, Denmark and Norway (I probably missed a couple). I live in one of these countries (NL) and although the actual leaders of the countries are elected and the Royalty is mostly only for show, it will be one more obstacle to overcome.

The higher Tax-rate results from better social services (or the other way around).
This reduces the gap between rich and poor a bit.

Basically the US won't have to worry about being surpassed in militairy might in at least 100 years (if ever), Economicly well .. in 20-50 years? Talking about culture: already a draw.

IMO

 

[Texmaster]

<<

<<

<< Not a chance in hell unless they stop punishing success and drifting more and more into socialism. >>



Agreed. Besides, pigs will fly before European coutries agree to something more than being jealous of America's success. >>



There you are! I was wondering when you would make your presence felt in this thread

Like I already told, Europe is not drifting towards socialism >>



And I said that where? OOPS! Wrong guy Nemesis! LOL That was AmusedOne!

Your bias towards me is so incredible you didn't even bother to look and make sure I said that! LOL!!!

 

[b0mbrman]

<< wahaha china and an united asia!!

bah, europe would do well to convert to english as their official language and used everywhere, a common culture, use the dollar, and call themselves the United States 2.0 >>



Ha ha ha!

 

[Lars]

<< When or Can a unified Europe dethrone the US? >>



I believe it will happen within the next 50 years.



<< A country shouldn't be scared of a wealthy neighbour, be it china or europe or whatever. Remember, the richer your neighbour is, the more you can sell him. Sure there would be people who lose their jobs because they produced inferior products, but there would be new jobs which have their origin in selling innovative products to the rich neighbour. >>



That is very true Aelus.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< And I said that where? OOPS! Wrong guy Nemesis! LOL That was AmusedOne!

Your bias towards me is so incredible you didn't even bother to look and make sure I said that! LOL!!! >>



OK, I will quote AmusedOne's post, and your reply (first one is post by AmusedOne, your reply is under it in bold font):



<<

<< Not a chance in hell unless they stop punishing success and drifting more and more into socialism. >>



Agreed. >>



You said it right there! AmusedOne said that Europe drifts towards socialism, and you said that you agree.

I will accept your apology right about now.

Oh, I almost forgot: LOL!

 

[cybergrave]

xyyyz :

EU has no chance.

the biggest threat to america is a UNITED INDIA CHINA RUSSIA

they will kick your ass in the next 10 years

just watch

then the only thing you can do is learn to speak chinese or hindi

cause the ruskis will be already doing so.

 

[Texmaster]

<< You said it right there! AmusedOne said that Eurode drifts towards socialism, and you said that you agree.

I will accept your apology right about now. >>



You are absolutely right. I did agree.

My apologies

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<< You said it right there! AmusedOne said that Eurode drifts towards socialism, and you said that you agree.

I will accept your apology right about now. >>



You are absolutely right. I did agree.

My apologies >>



Apology accepted

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

When or Can a unified Europe dethrone the US?
If you believe in world opinion (which arguably doesn't really mean anything in particular) it appears Europe has already dethroned the US. The stagnant and developing countries appear to buy the concept of US hegemony. Although the generalization in clearly inaccurate it has enough supporting evidence that our detractors can parade isolated incidents as proof.

But we are certainly on a path of economic crisis. Less than two years ago we were marveling at the possibility of endless technological/industrial progress and the benefits that would be distributed throughout the population. Now we are embarking on the largest (if passed as legislation) military buildup since Reagan I. Our president has named adversaries (INKI) but the threat they present is highly questionable. We are on pace to $400B annual spending on defense and annual deficeits (assuming you don't include SS/Medicare). And then when the Boomers retire en mass we are going to be in a world of hurt.

Say what you will about "socialized" Europe but they can adjust to the relatively gradual uptick in social programs. We're going to be hit with a deluge. Without intervention the greenback will lose a lot of its luster internationally.

UNITED INDIA CHINA RUSSIA
Amen, brother. We can bask in military superiority but ultimately a coalition will rise to the challenge. We might be able to counter 2 but together they will become the dominant Eastern power and will extend their sphere into the West . . . particularly developing countries that feel "used" by us.

 

[gopunk]

i seriously doubt it. if anything, it'll be asia.

 

[Rison]

The countries that have adopted the euro - collectively known as the 'eurozone' - already form a larger economic base than the United States. Stuff the United Kingdom and the other missing nations in there in a couple of year's time, it will be noticeably larger. Europe's population is higher too.

Wrong, the world economy is 18 TRILLION DOLLARS. The US economy is $10 Trillion dollars. Germany's economy is 1 trillion, france is probably 900 billion. The rest are smaller. Add them all up and they're far smaller than the might of the US. Add our military, culture, and intelligence, and there's no stopping this superpower.

 

[RolyL]

Nah Rison, that's crap.<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ForeignLabor/flsgdp.txt" target=blank>

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ForeignLabor/flsgdp.txt</A>

Table 2. Real GDP per CAPITA
Converted to U.S. Dollars using EKS PPPs
(United States = 100)

Year United Former Unified Nether- United
States Canada Japan Korea Austria Belgium Denmark France W.Germany Germany Italy lands Norway Sweden Kingdom

1998 100.0 78.7 74.6 45.0 73.8 74.8 80.8 68.7 76.7 70.5 68.6 74.1 85.1 65.5 66.3



[url]http://www.prb.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Other_reports/2000-2002/sheet1.html[/url]


US = 284.5 million
Europe = 727 million (Western Europe alone is 184 million)

Multiply up by the GDP per capita figures and you'll see the US is way behind.

As for your sadly typically blinkered American views on culture and intelligence, you clearly haven't appreciated the delights of Paris, London, Rome, Cologne, Oxford, or Venice. Sorry mate, but the number of Noble prize winners per capita is massively higher for the UK, France, and Germany.

 

[RolyL]

The italics don't seem to want to be switched off.
Your post really irritated me Rison :disgust:. Get your facts right. Germany is far larger than 10% of the US's size. The United States is merely one country on this small planet, and its inhabitants are neither inherently better nor worse than those of the others. Learn this, and stop being so damn parochial. Look this word up in the Oxford English Dictionary online if your cultural superiority doesn't extend to include polysyllabic words.

 

[Hammer]

You're an idiot. What was the last grade you completed? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?



<< xyyyz :

EU has no chance.

the biggest threat to america is a UNITED INDIA CHINA RUSSIA

they will kick your ass in the next 10 years

just watch

then the only thing you can do is learn to speak chinese or hindi

cause the ruskis will be already doing so. >>

 

[StageLeft]

<< You're an idiot. What was the last grade you completed? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? >>

I was gonna answer the question for him, no. 10 years? No way. Nobody can tell the future. Maybe in 100 years Canada will be a super power following a mass immigration. Who knows? But in 10 years india/china/russia unit being the strongest? Uh uh!