When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns

[Farang]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Farang
Drift3r, your argument is missing the point. Culture of violence or not, we have easy access to guns in this country. What the OP is about is gun-free zones, which really only take the guns out of the pockets of honest people while obviously any criminal is going to disregard them. The idea of having these little bubbles that will be gun-free creates a situation like we witnessed today, where the only armed man ends up running through classrooms unopposed slaughtering innocent people.

Don't like people owning handguns? Great.. but a different argument. As it stands I don't see the purpose of gun-free zones.

You can't dismiss the fact that our society is extremely violent. Violence is the kind of the key factor that creates incidents like the one we all witnessed today in VA Tech. I agree it's kind of pointless to have "gun free zones" when guns are basically all over the place. Yet arming everyone to the teeth is not the answer my friend. We are a violent country and giving more people who otherwise would not have access to a weapon is not a good idea. I don't trust the general populace to behave like civilized human beings 100% of the time and I don't trust all people to be 100% safe with personal concealed firearms.

A lot of people feel that way but like I said that is a different argument. Honestly I had never given much thought about gun-free zones until today when I realized they really served no purpose other than to disarm possible heroes. The shooter isn't going to walk up to a "Gun-Free Zone" sign and say "Oops.. better shoot up the 7-11 instead!"

Note: Gun-free zones in bars, however, is a good idea 😉

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: Kwaipie
College students with concealed weapon permits?
Has the person that suggested this ever been on a college campus? These people are absolute morons and you want to arm them.

*shudder*

Nice generalization, some people on college campuses are morons, but not all, there are plenty of responsible people there aswell.

Additionally in general concealed handgun license owners are more law abiding than most people.

In Texas for example CHL holders were found to be more law abiding than the police that folks like you would prefer to be the only ones with guns.

What are the qualifications for CHL holders in Texas?

How would the fine record of CHL holders in Texas be impacted when everyone else is now allowed to by pass the CHL restrictions/qualifactions?

These are questions that need to be taken seriously and stuided because just giving everyone a weapon because of a extreme emotional and rare event like what happened today is somewhat a knee jerk reaction IMHO.

 

[ElMonoDelMar]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: Kwaipie
College students with concealed weapon permits?
Has the person that suggested this ever been on a college campus? These people are absolute morons and you want to arm them.

*shudder*

Nice generalization, some people on college campuses are morons, but not all, there are plenty of responsible people there aswell.

Additionally in general concealed handgun license owners are more law abiding than most people.

In Texas for example CHL holders were found to be more law abiding than the police that folks like you would prefer to be the only ones with guns.

What are the qualifications for CHL holders in Texas?

How would the fine record of CHL holders in Texas be impacted when everyone else is now allowed to by pass the CHL restrictions/qualifactions?

These are questions that need to be taken seriously and stuided because just giving everyone a weapon because of a extreme emotional and rare event like what happened today is somewhat a knee jerk reaction IMHO.

Why are you talking about bypassing CHL standards? The debate isn't whether CHLs should be necessary to carry firearms. The debate here is why should schools be off limits to CHL holders.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: ElMonoDelMar

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: Kwaipie
College students with concealed weapon permits?
Has the person that suggested this ever been on a college campus? These people are absolute morons and you want to arm them.

*shudder*

Nice generalization, some people on college campuses are morons, but not all, there are plenty of responsible people there aswell.

Additionally in general concealed handgun license owners are more law abiding than most people.

In Texas for example CHL holders were found to be more law abiding than the police that folks like you would prefer to be the only ones with guns.

What are the qualifications for CHL holders in Texas?

How would the fine record of CHL holders in Texas be impacted when everyone else is now allowed to by pass the CHL restrictions/qualifactions?

These are questions that need to be taken seriously and stuided because just giving everyone a weapon because of a extreme emotional and rare event like what happened today is somewhat a knee jerk reaction IMHO.

Why are you talking about bypassing CHL standards? The debate isn't whether CHLs should be necessary to carry firearms. The debate here is why should schools be off limits to CHL holders.

Well from the sound of some people it sounds like the standards for CHL should be lowered so that everyone gets a gun. Frankly I rather that not happen. I rather the hurdles be in place if not raised to weed out those who are prone to violence or who are mentally disturbed. I am willing to allow CHL holders who have gone through a extremely rigorous psychological testing and profiling phase and passed to be allowed to go were they please.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: totalcommand


How about, this kid would have killed other students anyways? Should we just hand everyone a gun and hope it doesn't fall into the wrong hands?

Nope. Just to the law abiding citizens.

Originally posted by: totalcommand
I am afraid of the couple nutcases out there, and I see no reason why we should make it easy for them to get guns.

Contrary to just about all the proof there is on the subject eh? Thats called a phobia my friend.

Originally posted by: totalcommand
And yes, I am afraid of people carrying concealed weapons, because in times of high stress people do really stupid sh!t

See above.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: ElMonoDelMar

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: Kwaipie
College students with concealed weapon permits?
Has the person that suggested this ever been on a college campus? These people are absolute morons and you want to arm them.

*shudder*

Nice generalization, some people on college campuses are morons, but not all, there are plenty of responsible people there aswell.

Additionally in general concealed handgun license owners are more law abiding than most people.

In Texas for example CHL holders were found to be more law abiding than the police that folks like you would prefer to be the only ones with guns.

What are the qualifications for CHL holders in Texas?

How would the fine record of CHL holders in Texas be impacted when everyone else is now allowed to by pass the CHL restrictions/qualifactions?

These are questions that need to be taken seriously and stuided because just giving everyone a weapon because of a extreme emotional and rare event like what happened today is somewhat a knee jerk reaction IMHO.

Why are you talking about bypassing CHL standards? The debate isn't whether CHLs should be necessary to carry firearms. The debate here is why should schools be off limits to CHL holders.

Well from the sound of some people it sounds like the standards for CHL should be lowered so that everyone gets a gun. Frankly I rather that not happen. I rather the hurdles be in place if not raised to weed out those who are prone to violence or who are mentally disturbed. I am willing to allow CHL holders who have gone through a extremely rigorous psychological testing and profiling phase and passed to be allowed to go were they please.

Here are VA's gun laws...Hmm....interesting.

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/f/gunlaw_va.htm

The current standards for obtaining a permit to carry a concealed weapon has proven itself better (in terms of abuse) than the current standards for giving a person a badge and state/local government purchased gun.

Do you really want to debate the track record? If not, then why change what isn't broken.

 

[her209]

Hmmm... I wonder if all the students bumrushed the gunman instead of trying to get away, how many less students would have died?

 

[bdude]

What if the moron who ****** up 33 people was a law abiding citizen?

The easier it is to access a gun for the general population, the more chance that a fsckin crazy nutjob like this idiot can get all worked up about some bitch that's cheating on him and decide to take out half a fsckin classroom.

"Oh, if we could conceal carry on campus then this would never happen."

Great, then we can all start playin cowboys and indians and everytime some ass whips his piece out we can have a showdown.

Morons.

 

[ElMonoDelMar]

Originally posted by: bdude

"Oh, if we could conceal carry on campus then this would never happen."

Great, then we can all start playin cowboys and indians and everytime some ass whips his piece out we can have a showdown.

Morons.

Do you have any proof that this has ever happened in places that allow permit holders to carry? You anti-gun types keep spewing these "the streets will run red with blood" scenarios that just never seem to pan out in places that allow CCW.

 

[Termagant]

I'm glad Bush is president so he can veto gun control legislation the Democrats will invariably pass. As much as I am anti-gun nut, I also realize the presence of "scary" guns, "big" magazines, and "concealed" guns doesn't really change anything in terms of safety.

But I do not look forward to hearing Nancy Pelosi's shrill voice make some clueless comment about weaponry. Maybe with the new "moderate" Democrats like Jim Webb the Democrats will have to moderate their positions?

I also hope, however, that some crazy pro gun legislation doesn't get passed at the state level, like all professors must pack heat when lecturing. Or every classroom should have a mini gun safe which two students can unlock with their student ID cards missile silo style. Or frat parties are required to have one armed guard per 10 revelers.

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: bdude


What if the moron who ****** up 33 people was a law abiding citizen?

The easier it is to access a gun for the general population, the more chance that a fsckin crazy nutjob like this idiot can get all worked up about some bitch that's cheating on him and decide to take out half a fsckin classroom.

"Oh, if we could conceal carry on campus then this would never happen."

Great, then we can all start playin cowboys and indians and everytime some ass whips his piece out we can have a showdown.

Morons.

And here's a prime example of a government schooled and bred citizen. Let the government protect you, they'll do such a good job. :thumbsup::roll:

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
My grandpa used to bring his gun to school when he was in 6th grade. No school shootings then...in fact, it wasn't until all schools were "Gun Free" that we started to have school shootings.

Maybe the founders weren't so stupid as we think. Echoing the idea behind the topic title.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Show us at least 1 case in history where tighter gun laws have produced less crime.

As I posted in the OT thread - these things do not happen here in Britain where carrying a loaded handgun on the street will get you 5 years in jail.

It was suggested that if there were no guns the attacker would simply have used home made explosives, but schools are not blown up with explosives here either.

Why is this?

In my opinion there are parts of American society which teach that it is OK to kill other human beings, and while guns themselves are not at fault for this, the attitude towards being armed is a big part of it. In a culture where a father carries a gun in his jacket every day, and is always talking about how he wants to shoot some criminal or illegal immigrant with it, what is his son going to think? He's gonna to think he needs a gun to be a big man like daddy, and when he gets one, he's gonna use it.

Explain this please: One person was killed and five others wounded by a man with a knife who jumped out of his car and stabbed people at various locations in North London over a one-hour period.
and this
A 15-year-old boy has been stabbed to death outside the gates of his London school.
and this
Two teenagers were in police custody last night after a 14-year-old boy became the latest victim in a spate of gang knife killings.

I guess we'd be better off with people running around with knifes rather than guns, but don't pretend that England is some utopia where senseless crimes don't take place.

oh... forgot this one
"On March 13, 1996, at 9:30 a.m., Thomas Hamilton, 43, went to the Dunblane Primary School with four handguns and more than 700 rounds of ammunition. Once there, he cut the telephone wires on a nearby pole, then proceeded to the assembly hall. He shot several teachers, and then started shooting 5 year-old students. Next, he went into the classrooms and shot several more. He then returns to the gym, put a gun into his mouth, and pulled the trigger.

The brutal rampage left 17 people murdered, including one teacher and 16 children. Twelve more students, and three teachers, were wounded. "

 

[Soybomb]

The easier it is to access a gun for the general population, the more chance that a fsckin crazy nutjob like this idiot can get all worked up about some bitch that's cheating on him and decide to take out half a fsckin classroom.

How do you propose we make guns vanish? We can't seem to do that with drugs no matter how many billions of dollars a year we dedicate to it. Further, people have a legitimate need for guns.

The best you can do is let people have an effective means of self defense. Its sad I'm having to try to sell today what is already in the framing document for our nation but I guess thats the way it is.

 

[exdeath]

This incident makes a mockery of the people who defeated this bill last year:

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658


quote:
A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.



quote:
Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."



Lessons:

1) gun control doesn't work; people intent on doing harm will do it anyway
2) denying people the means to defend themselves and their peers makes them helpless victims
3) this person used two simple 9mm handguns, not AR15s, not AK47s, not Tec9s, or any kind of evil plastic ""high powered high capacity military style semiautomatic assault weapon with a bayonet attachment""; just two simple easily (illegally) concealed 9mm handguns

Lessons we repeat over and over and over again while we watch out fellow citizens get gunned down because some people just won't accept that threat of justified lawful gun violence is the only EFFECTIVE solution to criminal gun violence. Instead we will keep cutting away human rights, installing more metal detectors, making our lives more inconvenient, etc. And we gain nothing in return but continued and increased violence from murderers who now know where to go to find easy targets.

Are you touchy feely prozac types learning that justified violence is the only deterrent to criminal violence yet? Or are you going to continue dancing around the uncomfortable but only REALISTIC solution to criminals and implement everything under the sun BUT self defense?

 

[ProfJohn]

As someone pointed out way back at the start of this thread.

Nearly EVERY violent massacre like this ends when someone else with a gun shows up.

Columbine ended when the SWAT showed up and the kids killed themselves, although it may have ended before that.
There was a case in Tenn I believe where a Vice Principle ran to his car and get his gun and confronted a kid who had shot some people, the kid gave up.
The Long Island train shooting ended when the shooter ran out of bullets and was tackled by people in the train, if someone else had a gun it would have ended sooner.

This incident ended when the SWAT teams showed up and the guy killed himself.

Having more guns around will not stop events like this from starting, but they will help end them faster.

 

[Mill]

I think we can be certain the AWB on high capacity magazines will be coming back. Even if he was using normal size mags.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Mill
I think we can be certain the AWB on high capacity magazines will be coming back. Even if he was using normal size mags.

Not that I think it's necessarily more than a knee-jerk reaction, but is there any purpose whatsoever to high capacity magazines, other than killing a lot of things quickly?

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Having more guns around will not events like this from starting, but they will help end them faster.

But why stop at guns?

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: Drift3r


Yes everyone can screw up but the odds of a highly trained law enforcement officer screwing up compared to your local slack jawed yockel are lower IMHO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sECV2MVYEWI

your local slack jawwed yockel.... compare and contrast...

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: her209
Should high school students be allowed to carry?

Hell no.

 

[Soybomb]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Mill
I think we can be certain the AWB on high capacity magazines will be coming back. Even if he was using normal size mags.

Not that I think it's necessarily more than a knee-jerk reaction, but is there any purpose whatsoever to high capacity magazines, other than killing a lot of things quickly?

Since when do we base things on need in the US? Is there a reason for people to buy ben & jerrys? A reason to buy a corvette? The 2nd amendment is not limited by demonstrated need.

Anyway to address your question, yes sometimes people need to fire more than rounds in self defense. Most people who aren't shooters seem to be under the impression that handguns are 1 shot per person type of things, in reality though it turns out that often people need to be shot several times with handguns before they stop attacking and its quite difficult to hit a moving target under stress. People choose normal capacity magazines over restricted capacity for the same reason police carry the same and reloads.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: her209
Hmmm... I wonder if all the students bumrushed the gunman instead of trying to get away, how many less students would have died?

Well, for one thing they weren't all in the same room and for another it's not like they had time to get together and think it out.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Mill
I think we can be certain the AWB on high capacity magazines will be coming back. Even if he was using normal size mags.

Not that I think it's necessarily more than a knee-jerk reaction, but is there any purpose whatsoever to high capacity magazines, other than killing a lot of things quickly?

Is there any purpose to cars that can go faster than 55 mph since thats the highway speed limit? Cars kill more people every year than guns do.

How about TV's larger than 19"? Do you really need that for anything?

Actually this is more like you buying a TV that is 65" but then being arbitrarily limited to only using a 13" viewable area because of some arbitrary law, and thread of being tackled by ATF agents and hit with felonies if you screw with the settings and get an image bigger than 13"

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: 6000SUX

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: 6000SUX

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: 6000SUX
The easy answer, if you're worried about gun violence, is for no one to carry guns. Guess how many mass shootings Britain has on their school campuses?

And we see how well "Gun free" zones work dont we.
Britian still has crime. Dont be naive. You can change the weapon of the crime, but you cant stop crime itself.

To blame the weapon for the crime is pretty silly.

Just pointing out the obvious: remove guns from the equation and you don't have mass shootings. :disgust:

No, then someone would resort to little homemade pipebombs or maybe poison darts?

Your point?

Stupid un-point. Talk out of your ass much? How many poison dart killings do you see in Britain? Multiply by five.

The point is obvious. I'm sick of the stupid argumentation tactic here where idiots pretend not to be able to read. Remove guns, weapons violence almost disappears as a social issue.

No the point isn't obvious.

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