Whats the point in buying an Audi?

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: JYDog

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: JYDog
The easiest way to tell if a manufacture is cheating you in the departments you talked above is to measure their engine line-ups. If the make have only two or three engines spread over like 7 or 8 cars, its not a good sign.

Obviously this comment was aimed twards Nissan/Infiniti. What's so wrong with it? If anyhting, it's an advantage

Well, nothing is wrong from the manufacturer's point of view. They save a bundle in the process by keeping it simple and still can field the same number of cars to the showrooms. HOWEVER, from a buyers point of view you're really getting short change, in the varieties of engines. Theres no way you can suit everyone's own personal driving style with just one or two engines(which btw, comes sometimes in only automatic transmissions!). I think VW has it about right, they offer atleast 3 different engines for each of their cars and for the most part they're available in both manual and auto(plus sometimes, all-wheel-drive), for example, the Passat has 1.8T, 2.8/3.0, W8, and a 2.0tdi is on the way too. Compare that to what you get with Nissans, Toyotas....

Why do you need more than two engines? That's spreadin' it on a bit thick and is COSTLY.

All of Nissans sedans can come with manual and automatic on all engines.

Altima: 4-banger - stick/auto, V6 - stick/auto
Sentra: 4-banger - stick/auto, HO 4-banger - stick/auto
Maxima: V6 - stick/auto

As for Toyota:
Camry: 4-banger - auto/stick, V6 auto
Corolla: 4-banger - auto/stick


You have to look at the target market as well. Your average Camry driver doesn't giving a flying f*&k about shifting gears Nissan drivers do however.

Also, take a look at Toyota and Nissans sales compared to VW. We know that the two Japanese manufacturers have the right idea.

 

[isekii]

Originally posted by: JYDog

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: JYDog
The easiest way to tell if a manufacture is cheating you in the departments you talked above is to measure their engine line-ups. If the make have only two or three engines spread over like 7 or 8 cars, its not a good sign.

Obviously this comment was aimed twards Nissan/Infiniti. What's so wrong with it? If anyhting, it's an advantage

Well, nothing is wrong from the manufacturer's point of view. They save a bundle in the process by keeping it simple and still can field the same number of cars to the showrooms. HOWEVER, from a buyers point of view you're really getting short change, in the varieties of engines. Theres no way you can suit everyone's own personal driving style with just one or two engines(which btw, comes sometimes in only automatic transmissions!). I think VW has it about right, they offer atleast 3 different engines for each of their cars and for the most part they're available in both manual and auto(plus sometimes, all-wheel-drive), for example, the Passat has 1.8T, 2.8/3.0, W8, and a 2.0tdi is on the way too. Compare that to what you get with Nissans, Toyotas....

what's the point of having that many engines in a single car anyways ?
Japanese Imports usually have a 4cyl model and a 6cyl model and I believe they do sell pretty damn well.
I like the engines that come on the Japanese cars more so than the European Counter part. Japanese engines are efficient and damn reliable.

I'm not saying european engines aren't, but i'd have to give my hands off to the japanese as I do believe their engines are far more superior in quality.

 

[JYDog]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: JYDog

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: JYDog
The easiest way to tell if a manufacture is cheating you in the departments you talked above is to measure their engine line-ups. If the make have only two or three engines spread over like 7 or 8 cars, its not a good sign.

Obviously this comment was aimed twards Nissan/Infiniti. What's so wrong with it? If anyhting, it's an advantage

Well, nothing is wrong from the manufacturer's point of view. They save a bundle in the process by keeping it simple and still can field the same number of cars to the showrooms. HOWEVER, from a buyers point of view you're really getting short change, in the varieties of engines. Theres no way you can suit everyone's own personal driving style with just one or two engines(which btw, comes sometimes in only automatic transmissions!). I think VW has it about right, they offer atleast 3 different engines for each of their cars and for the most part they're available in both manual and auto(plus sometimes, all-wheel-drive), for example, the Passat has 1.8T, 2.8/3.0, W8, and a 2.0tdi is on the way too. Compare that to what you get with Nissans, Toyotas....

Why do you need more than two engines? That's spreadin' it on a bit thick and is COSTLY.

All of Nissans sedans can come with manual and automatic on all engines.

Altima: 4-banger - stick/auto, V6 - stick/auto
Sentra: 4-banger - stick/auto, HO 4-banger - stick/auto
Maxima: V6 - stick/auto

As for Toyota:
Camry: 4-banger - auto/stick, V6 auto
Corolla: 4-banger - auto/stick


You have to look at the target market as well. Your average Camry driver doesn't giving a flying f*&k about shifting gears Nissan drivers do however.

Also, take a look at Toyota and Nissans sales compared to VW. We know that the two Japanese manufacturers have the right idea.

what's the point of having that many engines in a single car anyways ?
Japanese Imports usually have a 4cyl model and a 6cyl model and I believe they do sell pretty damn well.
I like the engines that come on the Japanese cars more so than the European Counter part. Japanese engines are efficient and damn reliable.

I'm not saying european engines aren't, but i'd have to give my hands off to the japanese as I do believe their engines are far more superior in quality.

Well to address both your guys posts, its not that its not good economics, especially for them, its just that its a bad deal for the buyer. IMO, there should be like (2) 4cyl options and (2) 6cyl options in both auto and manuals for a typical sedan. I don't know, I think a 2.2L and a 3.0L is not enough for a car like a Honda Accord, and the 3.0 is not even available with manual. For example, for a car like the Accord, there should be a 1.8L 4cyl for the mpg ultra-conscious, a 2.4L 4cyl for the mainstream, a 2.X V6 and a 3.X V6 for the higher end buyers. Its my opinion that this is why VW has gained so much ground, people want variety.

(sorry for taking so long to post )

 

[isekii]

Originally posted by: JYDog

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: JYDog

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: JYDog
The easiest way to tell if a manufacture is cheating you in the departments you talked above is to measure their engine line-ups. If the make have only two or three engines spread over like 7 or 8 cars, its not a good sign.

Obviously this comment was aimed twards Nissan/Infiniti. What's so wrong with it? If anyhting, it's an advantage

Well, nothing is wrong from the manufacturer's point of view. They save a bundle in the process by keeping it simple and still can field the same number of cars to the showrooms. HOWEVER, from a buyers point of view you're really getting short change, in the varieties of engines. Theres no way you can suit everyone's own personal driving style with just one or two engines(which btw, comes sometimes in only automatic transmissions!). I think VW has it about right, they offer atleast 3 different engines for each of their cars and for the most part they're available in both manual and auto(plus sometimes, all-wheel-drive), for example, the Passat has 1.8T, 2.8/3.0, W8, and a 2.0tdi is on the way too. Compare that to what you get with Nissans, Toyotas....

Why do you need more than two engines? That's spreadin' it on a bit thick and is COSTLY.

All of Nissans sedans can come with manual and automatic on all engines.

Altima: 4-banger - stick/auto, V6 - stick/auto
Sentra: 4-banger - stick/auto, HO 4-banger - stick/auto
Maxima: V6 - stick/auto

As for Toyota:
Camry: 4-banger - auto/stick, V6 auto
Corolla: 4-banger - auto/stick


You have to look at the target market as well. Your average Camry driver doesn't giving a flying f*&k about shifting gears Nissan drivers do however.

Also, take a look at Toyota and Nissans sales compared to VW. We know that the two Japanese manufacturers have the right idea.

what's the point of having that many engines in a single car anyways ?
Japanese Imports usually have a 4cyl model and a 6cyl model and I believe they do sell pretty damn well.
I like the engines that come on the Japanese cars more so than the European Counter part. Japanese engines are efficient and damn reliable.

I'm not saying european engines aren't, but i'd have to give my hands off to the japanese as I do believe their engines are far more superior in quality.

Well to address both your guys posts, its not that its not good economics, especially for them, its just that its a bad deal for the buyer. IMO, there should be like (2) 4cyl options and (2) 6cyl options in both auto and manuals for a typical sedan. I don't know, I think a 2.2L and a 3.0L is not enough for a car like a Honda Accord, and the 3.0 is not even available with manual. For example, for a car like the Accord, there should be a 1.8L 4cyl for the mpg ultra-conscious, a 2.4L 4cyl for the mainstream, a 2.X V6 and a 3.X V6 for the higher end buyers. Its my opinion that this is why VW has gained so much ground, people want variety.

(sorry for taking so long to post )

I don't know about you but the Accord started coming out with a 6mt 6cyl

and 3.0L engine for the accord is more than plenty. Accord isn't a sports car but a family sedan. Coupe is just a sportier version of a family car.

Do you need 300hp in a FWD family car ? I don't think it's practical.
What's practical is decent power and good gas mileage with reliability and Honda Accord 6cyl has achieved that.

 

[Schadenfreude]

What's the point of getting a Corvette? It's only a faster version of a Yugo.

What's the point of getting an SUV? It's only a bigger version of a station wagon.

What's the point of getting a car? It's only a mechanical version of human feet.

It depends on whoever's buying it. I know you're whining, but don't think others are dumb just because they drive luxury cars from those companies - who knows, they might think it's worth the price.

 

[JYDog]

Originally posted by: isekii

I don't know about you but the Accord started coming out with a 6mt 6cyl

and 3.0L engine for the accord is more than plenty. Accord isn't a sports car but a family sedan. Coupe is just a sportier version of a family car.

Do you need 300hp in a FWD family car ? I don't think it's practical.
What's practical is decent power and good gas mileage with reliability and Honda Accord 6cyl has achieved that.

Some people may actually want 300hp in a FWD(or all-wheel-drive) sedan, who knows. But the Japanese makes, for the most part, have done an excellent job of convincing buyers that a choice of between two engines is plenty enough for them!

 

[ultimatebob]

Well, in my case, the Audi was a better value. An Audi A4 is only a few thousand more than a V6 VW Passat, and it has a much better range of options. The only way to equip a Passat to the point where it's almost as nice as an A4 3.0 Quattro is to get the high-end W8 package with all the options, which which point it ends up costing even more than the A4!

 

[isekii]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Well, in my case, the Audi was a better value. An Audi A4 is only a few thousand more than a V6 VW Passat, and it has a much better range of options. The only way to equip a Passat to the point where it's almost as nice as an A4 3.0 Quattro is to get the high-end W8 package with all the options, which which point it ends up costing even more than the A4!

Passat really isn't compared to an A4

Jetta is in more terms with the A4

I think Passat falls into the A6 category

 

[Gunnar]

wow, I got more than I bargained for here....

In any case, I didnt mean to step on anyone's toes, if you like those cars, obviously you will go out and buy them. For me, I just dont see the point in driving a car that is virtually the same as the production model. Yes, a few bits a pieces might be nicer, but its the same car (okay, quattro is an option not available on the VW car). If thats the case, I'd rather save the money, and buy the non-luxo model.

I dont agree with the point that you can modify the chassis of the car to the point where its a different car. Perhaps you can slap on softer springs or stick an anti-roll bar in there to change the handling dynamics, but that to me doesnt a different car make, I could very well do that with some aftermarket bits.

I guess in the end, it unfortunately comes down to the entire image/perceived wealth thing. If I drop my 35 grand, I damn well be getting a car built to be a 35 grand car, which is why the BMW and Mercedes make more sense to me. Come on, the Audi is definitely a VW with Quattro and more options. I drove my friends passat, and sat in the audi. Aside from some color changes, its the same exact thing. I'd rather drive the Passat and get the same thing for cheap!

Though I have to admit, that Infiniti/Nissan's FM platform is a bit of a exception. I mean the 350Z, FX35, and G35 are not geared to be mainstream type vehicles.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: Phuz

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Phuz

Originally posted by: LordSegan

Originally posted by: Phuz

Originally posted by: Dari
I'm seriously thinking of getting a Volvo S60R in July. Your thoughts on that?

I can only dream...

300ft/lbs @ less than 2500rpm.... AWD... all this out of a 2.5L engine... yessss.

Volvos rule and are true lux cars, nuff said.

I was wrong.... its 2100rpm... running @ 15.2 psi. Q )

I'm not a car buff so please forgive my ignorance. But, what does that mean practically? will it give me more gas mileage?

The T5 engine is amazing. That kind of power, at that low RPMs is performance generally seen in V8s, not 5 cylinders. Its base model has just over 220hp, and its getting the difference with a very high performance turbo, running at 15.2 pounds/square inch. Thats a lot of boost pressure.

Engine aside, its a volvo, with AWD, suspension technology like none other, and a very very cool interior.

This is a 2500CC engine... making 300hp.
I have a 2200CC engine... making 140hp. (non turbo)

The really interesting part? It's the old Audi 5 Cylinder engine from the original Audi Quattro. Volvo don't make their owen Passenger car engines, e.g., their 4 Cyl engines are Renault (hence they are teh suck).

 

[Priit]

Originally posted by: ChicagoMaroon
Just one example: What VW has the Audi's Multitronic Continuously Variable Transmission? Once you drive a tranmission with infinite gear ratios, you will never go back.

Plus Audis are a study in clean, beautiful, efficient industrial design. VW makes nice cars, Audis are a work of art.

<-- Happy 2003 Audi A4 owner.

I've driven a machine with that kind of transmission years back. Thought it was cool in it's own way, I doesn't miss that combine harvester much Seriously though, other car manufacturers has made variator-based transmissions years back, it's really nothing new. You're right about VW's and Audis being good cars of course

<-- owns 1990 VW Golf Mk2

 

[BigSmooth]

Just read an article this morning which says developing a new platform costs around one billion dollars. That's why these luxury divisions have simply dressed up existing cars in the past. I think now there's a trend, especially from the Japanese manufacturers, to keep their luxury cars separate because the added sales and prestige justify the costs. It's still impossible to have totally unique platforms for everything at $1B per, but if you look at Infiniti, for instance, the G20, I35, and QX4 (dressed up Sentra, Maxima, and Pathfinder, respectively) are all being dropped from their lineup because they realize people aren't fooled by the bells and whistles, and their sales suffered bceause of it. Instead, they've added some unique vehicles that people can actually get excited about. The cost and risks involved are high but if done well it can turn a company around.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Gunnar
wow, I got more than I bargained for here....

In any case, I didnt mean to step on anyone's toes, if you like those cars, obviously you will go out and buy them. For me, I just dont see the point in driving a car that is virtually the same as the production model. Yes, a few bits a pieces might be nicer, but its the same car (okay, quattro is an option not available on the VW car). If thats the case, I'd rather save the money, and buy the non-luxo model.

I dont agree with the point that you can modify the chassis of the car to the point where its a different car. Perhaps you can slap on softer springs or stick an anti-roll bar in there to change the handling dynamics, but that to me doesnt a different car make, I could very well do that with some aftermarket bits.

I guess in the end, it unfortunately comes down to the entire image/perceived wealth thing. If I drop my 35 grand, I damn well be getting a car built to be a 35 grand car, which is why the BMW and Mercedes make more sense to me. Come on, the Audi is definitely a VW with Quattro and more options. I drove my friends passat, and sat in the audi. Aside from some color changes, its the same exact thing. I'd rather drive the Passat and get the same thing for cheap!

Though I have to admit, that Infiniti/Nissan's FM platform is a bit of a exception. I mean the 350Z, FX35, and G35 are not geared to be mainstream type vehicles.

If you think that a Toyota Camry is the same thing as a Lexus RX330 or a Toyota Sienna, then you are SORELY mistaken. It's not as simple as slapping on some different sheetmetal and calling it a new car.

It's costs MONEY to build a new car platform. What would you have car manufacturers do? Build a whole new chassis for EACH AND EVERY MODEL THEY MAKE?? I'd hate to see you run a company that has a two tier structure (VW/Audi, Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura). You'd be out of business before you even started.

Also, VW/Audi's shared components (mostly stuff you DON'T SEE) allow you to get a better car for the money. $35,000 will buy you a NICELY loaded A4 Quattro. $35,000 will buy you a BMW 330i with few options. $35,000 won't even buy you a decent C-Class with some features.

You're not looking at this from a manufacturers standpoint, you're looking at it from a selfish "I don't want to be associated with inferior stuff" standpoint.

 

[prodigy]

Originally posted by: bigsmooth
Just read an article this morning which says developing a new platform costs around one billion dollars. That's why these luxury divisions have simply dressed up existing cars in the past. I think now there's a trend, especially from the Japanese manufacturers, to keep their luxury cars separate because the added sales and prestige justify the costs. It's still impossible to have totally unique platforms for everything at $1B per, but if you look at Infiniti, for instance, the G20, I35, and QX4 (dressed up Sentra, Maxima, and Pathfinder, respectively) are all being dropped from their lineup because they realize people aren't fooled by the bells and whistles, and their sales suffered bceause of it. Instead, they've added some unique vehicles that people can actually get excited about. The cost and risks involved are high but if done well it can turn a company around.

G20 is a dressed up Nissan Primera, the only thing it shares with a sentra is the rear suspension and engine.

 

[BigSmooth]

Originally posted by: prodigy69

Originally posted by: bigsmooth
Just read an article this morning which says developing a new platform costs around one billion dollars. That's why these luxury divisions have simply dressed up existing cars in the past. I think now there's a trend, especially from the Japanese manufacturers, to keep their luxury cars separate because the added sales and prestige justify the costs. It's still impossible to have totally unique platforms for everything at $1B per, but if you look at Infiniti, for instance, the G20, I35, and QX4 (dressed up Sentra, Maxima, and Pathfinder, respectively) are all being dropped from their lineup because they realize people aren't fooled by the bells and whistles, and their sales suffered bceause of it. Instead, they've added some unique vehicles that people can actually get excited about. The cost and risks involved are high but if done well it can turn a company around.

G20 is a dressed up Nissan Primera, the only thing it shares with a sentra is the rear suspension and engine.

My bad.

 

[prodigy]

Originally posted by: bigsmooth

Originally posted by: prodigy69

Originally posted by: bigsmooth
Just read an article this morning which says developing a new platform costs around one billion dollars. That's why these luxury divisions have simply dressed up existing cars in the past. I think now there's a trend, especially from the Japanese manufacturers, to keep their luxury cars separate because the added sales and prestige justify the costs. It's still impossible to have totally unique platforms for everything at $1B per, but if you look at Infiniti, for instance, the G20, I35, and QX4 (dressed up Sentra, Maxima, and Pathfinder, respectively) are all being dropped from their lineup because they realize people aren't fooled by the bells and whistles, and their sales suffered bceause of it. Instead, they've added some unique vehicles that people can actually get excited about. The cost and risks involved are high but if done well it can turn a company around.

G20 is a dressed up Nissan Primera, the only thing it shares with a sentra is the rear suspension and engine.

My bad.

All good, it's a common misconception.

 

[JYDog]

Originally posted by: Gunnar
wow, I got more than I bargained for here....

In any case, I didnt mean to step on anyone's toes, if you like those cars, obviously you will go out and buy them. For me, I just dont see the point in driving a car that is virtually the same as the production model. Yes, a few bits a pieces might be nicer, but its the same car (okay, quattro is an option not available on the VW car). If thats the case, I'd rather save the money, and buy the non-luxo model.

I dont agree with the point that you can modify the chassis of the car to the point where its a different car. Perhaps you can slap on softer springs or stick an anti-roll bar in there to change the handling dynamics, but that to me doesnt a different car make, I could very well do that with some aftermarket bits.

I guess in the end, it unfortunately comes down to the entire image/perceived wealth thing. If I drop my 35 grand, I damn well be getting a car built to be a 35 grand car, which is why the BMW and Mercedes make more sense to me. Come on, the Audi is definitely a VW with Quattro and more options. I drove my friends passat, and sat in the audi. Aside from some color changes, its the same exact thing. I'd rather drive the Passat and get the same thing for cheap!

Though I have to admit, that Infiniti/Nissan's FM platform is a bit of a exception. I mean the 350Z, FX35, and G35 are not geared to be mainstream type vehicles.

BMW and Mercedes still shares some but they get away with it much easier because they dont have as many models and they stick to one brand only. With two cars that has the same chassies you have to change a lot of things(engines, transmissions, F/R track, Tires, suspensions...) to make them feel like two different cars. But in the end, its still cheaper for the manufacturer than going with two totally different chassies.

 

[kleinesarschloch]

Originally posted by: isekii

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Well, in my case, the Audi was a better value. An Audi A4 is only a few thousand more than a V6 VW Passat, and it has a much better range of options. The only way to equip a Passat to the point where it's almost as nice as an A4 3.0 Quattro is to get the high-end W8 package with all the options, which which point it ends up costing even more than the A4!

Passat really isn't compared to an A4

Jetta is in more terms with the A4

I think Passat falls into the A6 category

passat and the A4 are based on the same platform. the golf/jetta shares platform with the audi A3.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

What are these chassises you guys are talking about? I thought all cars had unibodies.. are we in 1970 again?!

 

[JYDog]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
What are these chassises you guys are talking about? I thought all cars had unibodies.. are we in 1970 again?!

No, chassies here is the platform or underlying body that manufacturers uses for their vast arrays of cars and models.

 

[sohcrates]

come take a ride in my A4, you'll never look at a jetta again

 

[ChicagoMaroon]

Originally posted by: Priit

Originally posted by: ChicagoMaroon
Just one example: What VW has the Audi's Multitronic Continuously Variable Transmission? Once you drive a tranmission with infinite gear ratios, you will never go back.

Plus Audis are a study in clean, beautiful, efficient industrial design. VW makes nice cars, Audis are a work of art.

<-- Happy 2003 Audi A4 owner.

I've driven a machine with that kind of transmission years back. Thought it was cool in it's own way, I doesn't miss that combine harvester much Seriously though, other car manufacturers has made variator-based transmissions years back, it's really nothing new. You're right about VW's and Audis being good cars of course

<-- owns 1990 VW Golf Mk2

Yup, CVTs aren't anything new. Audi's innovation is making its CVT strong enough to attach to a high HP/torque engine.

 

[ChicagoMaroon]

Originally posted by: kleinesarschloch

Originally posted by: isekii

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Well, in my case, the Audi was a better value. An Audi A4 is only a few thousand more than a V6 VW Passat, and it has a much better range of options. The only way to equip a Passat to the point where it's almost as nice as an A4 3.0 Quattro is to get the high-end W8 package with all the options, which which point it ends up costing even more than the A4!

Passat really isn't compared to an A4

Jetta is in more terms with the A4

I think Passat falls into the A6 category

passat and the A4 are based on the same platform. the golf/jetta shares platform with the audi A3.

The Passat is based on the previous generation B5 A4 platform. The current B6/8E A4 (2002 on) does not have a VW platform equivalent.

 

[ChicagoMaroon]

Originally posted by: sohcrates
come take a ride in my A4, you'll never look at a jetta again

Sohcrates, you post on the Audiworld forums too right?

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: ChicagoMaroon

Originally posted by: Priit

Originally posted by: ChicagoMaroon
Just one example: What VW has the Audi's Multitronic Continuously Variable Transmission? Once you drive a tranmission with infinite gear ratios, you will never go back.

Plus Audis are a study in clean, beautiful, efficient industrial design. VW makes nice cars, Audis are a work of art.

<-- Happy 2003 Audi A4 owner.

I've driven a machine with that kind of transmission years back. Thought it was cool in it's own way, I doesn't miss that combine harvester much Seriously though, other car manufacturers has made variator-based transmissions years back, it's really nothing new. You're right about VW's and Audis being good cars of course

<-- owns 1990 VW Golf Mk2

Yup, CVTs aren't anything new. Audi's innovation is making its CVT strong enough to attach to a high HP/torque engine.

Well Nissan beat them to that. The Murano is the only production car to have a CVT mated to a 245hp 250tq engine.