What would you do to bring about peace in Israel/Palestine?

[Infohawk]

Let's imagine that you become the governor of the middle-east and have full powers to create peace in Israel and Palestine, what would you do?

I'll be honest, I don't think I have any good ideas on this point. I think both sides have legitimate positions but the positions are not reconcilable.

On the one hand you have the Palestinians. They saw a huge influx of European jews settle in their country. Many Palestinians chose or were forced to leave, depending on how you want to characterize it. I can see why they see Israel as a colonial state and desire to see that state removed. Creating a Palestinian state doesn't solve the problem. It's like if France kept part of Algeria and expected the Algerians to be cool with it.

On the other hands, I can see why European jews need Israel to exist. If I were part of a discrete group that was the target of industrial genocide, I would probably want to find a homeland to and protect it at all costs. It's reasonable to suspect that many jews feel they cannot guarantee their own safety in any country other than Israel. Theoretically, one could make Israel a purely secular state or international territory but this would deprive jews the homeland that they need to feel secure.

What would you do?

 

[xj0hnx]

Nuke from orbit?

 

[Sinsear]

I've got a great idea. However, I don't think it would be all that popular with the resident anti-semite, pro-Hamas crowd that takes up residence here.

 

[Infohawk]

I've got a great idea. However, I don't think it would be all that popular with the resident anti-semite, pro-Hamas crowd that takes up residence here.

Let's hear it. I imagine JediYoda would like it at least.

 

[JS80]

You have three options
1) Send the Jews back to Europe/Iran/Wherever they came from
2) Send the arabs (there's no such thing as a "palestinian" they are all arabs) to Jordan or assign them a country
3) Status quo, live in bloodshed

In other words, there's no "solution"

 

[MotF Bane]

With the caveat of Middle Eastern politics is not a particular strong suit of mine...

1) Israel's external borders are defined as they stand currently - this includes the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights. All non-Israeli controlled zones within these external borders will also become Israeli territory.
2) All non-Israeli citizens within these borders are offered a chance to become an Israeli citizen, with all rights associated. If they decline, they must leave the country. Do not tell them beforehand what happens if they decline - it could adversely affect the results.
3) Israel builds a DMZ around the entirety of its borders, as a buffer against future terrorist attacks. Neither Israel nor any outside state should violate this buffer, and it should be formed from Israeli territory, not by seizing further Arab lands. See point 5 for more.
4) Jerusalem and other holy cities must be accessible by non-citizens of any faith without undue discrimination.
5) Israel is to stay within the defined borders (the DMZ). If they are the aggressors in a conflict that expands them beyond, all aid from the United States ceases permanently. If an Arab state is the aggressor, Israel may defend itself to whatever extent it feels necessary - the presence of the DMZ should provide some discouragement against continued expansion.

Is it perfect? No. Is there any perfect solution? No.

 

[BoomerD]

Nuke from orbit?

It REALLY is the only way to be sure...


For a change, this is the correct answer.

There hasn't been a lasting peace in the middle east for centuries...perhaps for millenia...only here would someone think that it can be achieved by a random poster on a geek forum...

 

[Barfo]

With the caveat of Middle Eastern politics is not a particular strong suit of mine...

1) Israel's external borders are defined as they stand currently - this includes the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights. All non-Israeli controlled zones within these external borders will also become Israeli territory.
2) All non-Israeli citizens within these borders are offered a chance to become an Israeli citizen, with all rights associated. If they decline, they must leave the country. Do not tell them beforehand what happens if they decline - it could adversely affect the results.
3) Israel builds a DMZ around the entirety of its borders, as a buffer against future terrorist attacks. Neither Israel nor any outside state should violate this buffer, and it should be formed from Israeli territory, not by seizing further Arab lands. See point 5 for more.
4) Jerusalem and other holy cities must be accessible by non-citizens of any faith without undue discrimination.
5) Israel is to stay within the defined borders (the DMZ). If they are the aggressors in a conflict that expands them beyond, all aid from the United States ceases permanently. If an Arab state is the aggressor, Israel may defend itself to whatever extent it feels necessary - the presence of the DMZ should provide some discouragement against continued expansion.

Is it perfect? No. Is there any perfect solution? No.

lol? All these points benefit Israel and undermine Arabs. This would not bring peace in any way.

 

[bfdd]

lol? All these points benefit Israel and undermine Arabs. This would not bring peace in any way.

Not everything is a compromise. If you were an adult you'd realize that. I don't care if you're 35 years old, married and have children. If you were an adult you'd realize not everything can have a compromise.

 

[Barfo]

Not everything is a compromise. If you were an adult you'd realize that. I don't care if you're 35 years old, married and have children. If you were an adult you'd realize not everything can have a compromise.

What's with the personal attack? Go eat a dick.

Bane's solution would have Arabs angry and plotting to destroy Israel, not that it's something new but that's the way it would be, that's not bringing peace to the region.

 

[bfdd]

What's with the personal attack? Go eat a dick.

Bane's solution would have Arabs angry and plotting to destroy Israel, not that it's something new but that's the way it would be, that's not bringing peace to the region.

Fuck them. Israel is not their nation and if they want to pick a war with Israel they'll get glassed they know this. So fuck the Arabs not inside Israel. Those inside can just accept it and move on and be part of society or they can continue their stupid ass shit and live in the shit hole they currently live in.

 

[Moonbeam]

I would work on finding a drug that cures self hate.

 

[Infohawk]

It REALLY is the only way to be sure...


For a change, this is the correct answer.

There hasn't been a lasting peace in the middle east for centuries...perhaps for millenia...only here would someone think that it can be achieved by a random poster on a geek forum...

Nobody thinks the solutions are going to be on P&N. I'm here for entertainment. Maybe you're here to troll?

 

[MotF Bane]

lol? All these points benefit Israel and undermine Arabs. This would not bring peace in any way.

Regarding the primary borders (the nice straight lines): Israel wouldn't give those up, it wouldn't make sense to either.

Regarding Jerusalem:
1) Israel wouldn't want to give the city up
2) Giving it up would leave an Arab stronghold sitting in the middle of Israel territory, undermining a core tenet to my proposal
3) I believe that leaving Jerusalem under Western control, with a society that includes such things as equality for both genders, and with an agreement for access to all religions, is a better solution to Muslim control.

Regarding the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and the West Bank: again, one of the main pieces here - for its security, for better treatment of Palestinians, for a long-term peace, Israel must be a single unified piece, and there should not be other entire countries trapped within its borders.

You're right, of course - the plan gives Israel more than it gives the Arabs, by far. The options are limited. The other choice, while still obeying most of the general concepts I've laid out, is to cut Israel back into half of its territory, thereby also giving up a lot of its citizens and land that it has improved. My compromise to this is that Arabs should be allowed to choose Israeli citizenship - and do remember the recent thread where Israel is rated the eighth happiest country. It is also a country with more equality for women, more social freedoms, et cetera.

 

[MotF Bane]

Nobody thinks the solutions are going to be on P&N. I'm here for entertainment. Maybe you're here to troll?

Yep, this is just a thought experiment. None of these are really going to work, nor would anyone in power listen to an idea coming from a little online forum.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I would work on finding a drug that cures self hate.

Judging from your posts, you need to keep experimenting.

 

[Lemon law]

Since the Motf Bane contention of, "1) Israel's external borders are defined as they stand currently - this includes the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights. All non-Israeli controlled zones within these external borders will also become Israeli territory", fails at point one, all else that follows is bullshit.

The facts is and remains, by the same UN doctrine that created the State of Israel in 1948 also said that any land gained by conquest is Invalid. So we can logically remove any Israeli right to occupy the West Bank, Gaza, or the Golan heights.


Logic is logic, can't cherry pick what you want later.

But 43 damn years later, Israel still occupies disputed land they can never own. Is it not long past time to cut to the chase and tell Israel to the the hell out of disputed territory?

Or if Israel is not willing to abide by clear UN rules, why should not the UN just say Israel is no longer a legitimate State? And say they made a mistake in 1948 that needs correcting now?

UN rules have not changed any since 1948, so why do we accept bullshit now?

Maybe we should chuck the UN and retain Israel instead?

One or the other but not both.

 

[Lemon law]

accidental double post

 

[Lemon law]

I would work on finding a drug that cures self hate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mooni, that drug is called intellectual honesty, and as such a rare commodity.

 

[MotF Bane]

Since the Motf Bane contention of, "1) Israel's external borders are defined as they stand currently - this includes the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights. All non-Israeli controlled zones within these external borders will also become Israeli territory", fails at point one, all else that follows is bullshit.

The facts is and remains, by the same UN doctrine that created the State of Israel in 1948 also said that any land gained by conquest is Invalid. So we can logically remove any Israeli right to occupy the West Bank, Gaza, or the Golan heights.


Logic is logic, can't cherry pick what you want later.

But 43 damn years later, Israel still occupies disputed land they can never own. Is it not long past time to cut to the chase and tell Israel to the the hell out of disputed territory?

Or if Israel is not willing to abide by clear UN rules, why should not the UN just say Israel is no longer a legitimate State? And say they made a mistake in 1948 that needs correcting now?

UN rules have not changed any since 1948, so why do we accept bullshit now?

Maybe we should chuck the UN and retain Israel instead?

One or the other but not both.

I notice you have no solution yourself. I never once referred to prior logic, i.e. the UN formation. I used only the current borders, and went with a logical conclusion from there. There is nothing flawed with this concept - a nation's security is greatly aided by having a cohesive border, which bounds an area entirely under the control of that nation.

In fact, by taking over the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel will have reduced its perimeter - making it easier to secure a DMZ, and provide a safe location for its citizens.

Now, since you want to bring up the UN declaration, I'll set forth that it was a complete failure. As for the territories taken by Israel, it was attacked, and the aggressor nations lost territory. So what?

 

[ZzZGuy]

"Relocate" (this being the key word) all the arabs in the gaza/west bank to neighboring countries, perhaps some that are much further away. These countries eitehr wanting to take in these people or given large incentives to do so.

By relocate, I don't mean dump. I mean to set them up in another country, to become that countries citizen, with a decent start with housing and education so they can get a good fresh start on life.

Why do I say this? I believe the gaze/west bank will always be a basket case, a failed nation/state/whatever you want to call them. There will always be internal conflict that will drag them down and the rest of the world will have to support them to prevent any major humanitarian crisis.

I honestly believe these people will have better lives by becoming citizens of a stable nation. There is also the fact that these people have no nation to call their own right now, palestine never existed and never will because of how other nations are abusing them to either satisfy their own religious beliefs and/or use for political reasons. Eg, arab nations egging them on to keep up the armed struggle when they are the weakest power in the region going about in the worst possible way to attack the strongest power in the region.

The two biggest problems being trying to move that many unwilling people and rooting out as many terrorists as possible so the conflict doesn't follow them to their new nation.

I would say move the Israelis out but You can go and send Your military to try and do it because I sure as hell won't. There is also the fact that Israel is a established and stable nation, much more so then any of it's neighbors. If left alone there will be no aid drives in my country to try and support them.

-edit- xj0hnx's option would be my second option.

 

[MotF Bane]

"Relocate" (this being the key word) all the arabs in the gaza/west bank to neighboring countries, perhaps some that are much further away. These countries eitehr wanting to take in these people or given large incentives to do so.

By relocate, I don't mean dump. I mean to set them up in another country, to become that countries citizen, with a decent start with housing and education so they can get a good fresh start on life.

That's a good idea. I didn't have anything in mind beyond the Arabs leaving if they don't want to become Israeli citizens.

 

[Jhhnn]

Actually, I rather like Motf's proposal, with the exception of not letting the pals know what they're choosing, which seems unfair. If adopted, the need for US aid would end, anyway. The Israelis would never go for it unless absolutely forced, their desire to maintain a "Jewish State" being the prime mover of their policy in general... and the basis of the ongoing conflict, anyway... Some sort of compensation would need to be arranged for palestinians descendants outside the territory occupied by Israel and the govts who would be asked to accept them as citizens...

 

[MotF Bane]

Actually, I rather like Motf's proposal,

I'm a bit surprised.

with the exception of not letting the pals know what they're choosing, which seems unfair.

My reasoning - if you tell them beforehand that choosing no means they will be expelled, I am concerned that some will decide to choose citizenship that they don't really want, and may then decide to attempt to cause trouble, such as possibly activities. Again, it's not perfect, but fewer chances of terrorists inside the country might help convince Israel to go along with it, and give them fewer excuses to fuck it up after.

If adopted, the need for US aid would end, anyway. The Israelis would never go for it unless absolutely forced, their desire to maintain a "Jewish State" being the prime mover of their policy in general... and the basis of the ongoing conflict, anyway...

I suspect that United States aid would have to continue in some form, unfortunately. It would be the only way to really force Israel to obey such a plan, and it becomes the carrot to keep them following it, and the stick if they stop following it. I'm not happy with that part of the plan, but I can't see any other way to force Israel into implementing and continuing it.

Some sort of compensation would need to be arranged for palestinians descendants outside the territory occupied by Israel and the govts who would be asked to accept them as citizens...

Well, check out ZzZGuy's idea about relocation for the last.

 

[Fear No Evil]

The Palestinians are hated by both the Jews and the Arabs. There is no way to resolve this other than to wipe out the Palestinians, which really isn't an option. If the Jews are wiped out, the Palestinians would still be hated by the Arabs. If the Jews and the Palestinians are wiped out, the Arabs would just fight with each other. If the whole middle-east was wiped out.. wait.. hmm..