What would it take for you to believe in God?

[rubix]

god would have to look into my eyes and touch me in the penis. then i'd believe.

i've met god 3 times so far, behind an arby's down the street from me.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: Tuktuk

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Tuktuk
I feel like I got in here late but I'll chime in anyway.

The times when I return to a belief in God, if only for a short time, is when the strangest coincidences happen. Sometimes I think there is a God and the bastard just has the greatest sense of humor. There have been times when situations have arisen that I seriously doubt could have happened without intervention. Situations like running into someone at the worst time in the worst place, where you never would have expected them and the chances of you two actually being there are one in a million. All I can really do after situations like that is laugh to myself and laugh at God for fscking with me.

I have had extremely similar experiences. If you have read the New Testemant, you know that Jesus was actually very comical.

Every person I have met that is, uhh, logically religious (if that makes sense, or maybe very religious, but not in a fundamentalist kind of way) has had a really good sense of humor, a very funny person. Including one member of AT, a gentleman I used to work with, and a few priests I knew from back in the days of my church-going.

I have a hard time lining up the idea of "God has a sense of humor" with the existence of things in the world such as brutal tribal genocide and suicide bombings. It seems to me that such a "haha" philosophy only arises in societies that are lucky enough to be politically and economically stable. If you're in Iraq or caught in the middle of a tribal war in Africa, I doubt you would have the luxury of such a way of thinking about God.

I've had some pretty sh1tty things happen to me in my life. I'm sure most people have. You're committing the falacy of false consolation if you say I haven't suffered because someone else has suffered worse. During the worst things I've seen happen I can still see a certain humor to it, if there is indeed someone pulling the strings. Because if there is a God in the Christian sense, then death doesn't matter and the examples you mention of Iraq and Africa are only temporary states for those people. So yes, God may have an inside joke for tribal war and genocide and suicide bombings. One thing you may be interested to learn is that even in some of the worst conditions on this planet, many people do adopt a "haha" philosophy.

And why might that be? Could it be because that is the only thing that they have left? That to NOT do so would mean falling into utter insanity? Rationalizations and whimsical thoughts of a grand scheme of things are certainly things that us humans imploy to stay sane.

 

[Tuktuk]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Tuktuk

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Tuktuk
I feel like I got in here late but I'll chime in anyway.

The times when I return to a belief in God, if only for a short time, is when the strangest coincidences happen. Sometimes I think there is a God and the bastard just has the greatest sense of humor. There have been times when situations have arisen that I seriously doubt could have happened without intervention. Situations like running into someone at the worst time in the worst place, where you never would have expected them and the chances of you two actually being there are one in a million. All I can really do after situations like that is laugh to myself and laugh at God for fscking with me.

I have had extremely similar experiences. If you have read the New Testemant, you know that Jesus was actually very comical.

Every person I have met that is, uhh, logically religious (if that makes sense, or maybe very religious, but not in a fundamentalist kind of way) has had a really good sense of humor, a very funny person. Including one member of AT, a gentleman I used to work with, and a few priests I knew from back in the days of my church-going.

I have a hard time lining up the idea of "God has a sense of humor" with the existence of things in the world such as brutal tribal genocide and suicide bombings. It seems to me that such a "haha" philosophy only arises in societies that are lucky enough to be politically and economically stable. If you're in Iraq or caught in the middle of a tribal war in Africa, I doubt you would have the luxury of such a way of thinking about God.

I've had some pretty sh1tty things happen to me in my life. I'm sure most people have. You're committing the falacy of false consolation if you say I haven't suffered because someone else has suffered worse. During the worst things I've seen happen I can still see a certain humor to it, if there is indeed someone pulling the strings. Because if there is a God in the Christian sense, then death doesn't matter and the examples you mention of Iraq and Africa are only temporary states for those people. So yes, God may have an inside joke for tribal war and genocide and suicide bombings. One thing you may be interested to learn is that even in some of the worst conditions on this planet, many people do adopt a "haha" philosophy.

And why might that be? Could it be because that is the only thing that they have left? That to NOT do so would mean falling into utter insanity? Rationalizations and whimsical thoughts of a grand scheme of things are certainly things that us humans imploy to stay sane.

Let them stay sane then. Where is the problem in that? What is your argument?

I have the feeling you're going to start into claiming God cannot exist for reasons X, Y, and Z. Atheists sound so logical in their arguments, but fail to see that their argument is just as a silly as a believer's. The truth is none of us is capable of knowing whether or not God exists, and those who take a side do so for personal reasons but must remember always that their word is not final.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
We are not talking about the simple "capability" to do such things. We are talking about the moral justification for doing such things.

God decides to ignore all the killings, torture, rape, and suffering in the world at, say, 11:15AM on a Saturday to "fsck" with someone humorously?

I don't think God ignores anything. And I believe that God can see and do numerous things simultaneously. God probably does not have to play by the rules of what we consider "time."

I have a feeling that you're having a hard time following me. I did not state that God cannot do numerous things at once, nor that he is limited by time. That was not my point. I am stating that he seemingly lets atrocities happen at the same time that he is humoring someone halfway across the world. The point is that he is NOT doing these things simultaneously.

 

[Tuktuk]

I never said he was humoring me like a comedian. The situations I refer to usually piss me off a great deal and cause a lot of problems/pain in my life. What I laugh about is the improbablity of those things happening, and the fact that what does happen would be the most humorous for someone pulling the strings.

 

[judasmachine]

Direct literal answer to a prayer. Much like the dish of lasagna magically appearing in front of me.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: Tuktuk
Let them stay sane then. Where is the problem in that? What is your argument?

I have the feeling you're going to start into claiming God cannot exist for reasons X, Y, and Z. Atheists sound so logical in their arguments, but fail to see that their argument is just as a silly as a believer's. The truth is none of us is capable of knowing whether or not God exists, and those who take a side do so for personal reasons but must remember always that their word is not final.

My argument is that there's a different side to every coin. I am simply questioning, and hopefully making you question as well, the foundation of your previous assertion that God has a sense of humor. It arose when I read the statement "God has a sense of humor" when in fact too much of the world should not be considered humorous, and to humor someone while at the same time ignoring other atrocities seems decidedly un-characteristic of a supposedly supremely-benevolent being.

I think that you'd be interested to know that I am in fact a theist. I just strongly disagree with many of the "philosophies" of other God-believers.

In the end, what do we as human beings have to fall back on other than our rationality and free will? These are supposedly God-given attributes, right? I see absolutely no reason then to use these gifts to intelligently and to constantly question our world and our existence. I feel that God would highly regard those who think hard and constantly about their world and existence, regardless of whether they believe in him or not.

"I am God. I admit that I am mysterious to every human being. There are those who follow me without question. Then there are those who think, who try their damnest to find the truth in the world, who question everything and who keep an open mind. They are using their sentience and limited intelligence to make the best with what they've got. How can I fault them for questioning such things, even if ultimately they come to the wrong conclusion when they die?"

Thinking is not a sin.

 

[AbAbber2k]

If he made me God for a day... then I'd believe him. Although I'm sure we could work something else out if he thought I'd cause too much damage to the cosmos.

And by the way... proof of the "devil" isn't proof of "god"... unless MAYBE he said "yeah, I'm the same guy from the bible that pissed of Jesus' daddy". Even then I'd probably assume he was fvcking with me and was just some evil asshole that can bend reality to his will.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: Tuktuk
I never said he was humoring me like a comedian. The situations I refer to usually piss me off a great deal and cause a lot of problems/pain in my life. What I laugh about is the improbablity of those things happening, and the fact that what does happen would be the most humorous for someone pulling the strings.

I see. I sometimes have these moments too, but I either quickly dismiss the idea of someone pulling the strings as being absurd, or I hope and pray that God is doing other much more important things at the same time than pointlessly humoring me or himself. And humor only goes so far. The atom bomb. You're away in Osaka but your entire family is located in Nagasaki. What a big ol' coincidink that your entire family was obliterated all at the same time. Joke's on... you?

 

[Tuktuk]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Tuktuk
Let them stay sane then. Where is the problem in that? What is your argument?

I have the feeling you're going to start into claiming God cannot exist for reasons X, Y, and Z. Atheists sound so logical in their arguments, but fail to see that their argument is just as a silly as a believer's. The truth is none of us is capable of knowing whether or not God exists, and those who take a side do so for personal reasons but must remember always that their word is not final.

My argument is that there's a different side to every coin. I am simply questioning, and hopefully making you question as well, the foundation of your previous assertion that God has a sense of humor. It arose when I read the statement "God has a sense of humor" when in fact too much of the world should not be considered humorous, and to humor someone while at the same time ignoring other atrocities seems decidedly un-characteristic of a supposedly supremely-benevolent being.

I think that you'd be interested to know that I am in fact a theist. I just strongly disagree with many of the "philosophies" of other God-believers.

In the end, what do we as human beings have to fall back on other than our rationality and free will? These are supposedly God-given attributes, right? I see absolutely no reason then to use these gifts to intelligently and to constantly question our world and our existence. I feel that God would highly regard those who think hard and constantly about their world and existence, regardless of whether they believe in him or not.

"I am God. I admit that I am mysterious to every human being. There are those who follow me without question. Then there are those who think, who try their damnest to find the truth in the world, who question everything and who keep an open mind. They are using their sentience and limited intelligence to make the best with what they've got. How can I fault them for questioning such things, even if ultimately they come to the wrong conclusion when they die?"

Thinking is not a sin.

I think you're taking a very human perspective on atrocities. Let's say God does exist, and is a "he" for the sake of simplicity in arguing. He knows that a child being blown to bits by a suicide bomber isn't simply dead and gone. He knows the future of that child's soul and if what many religions say is true, he knows that the child will enter paradise. What a great reward! How is this not a great situation for the child? If the child's being blown to bits is positive, how can God not find humor in the situations sorrounding the child's death?

I don't think you can so easily dismiss the idea of God "messing with us." Wars, famine, genocide.. all terrible things, but in the grand scheme of things and with the assumption there is an afterlife, the horror of these things in our world can be dismissed if considered in a different context.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
We are not talking about the simple "capability" to do such things. We are talking about the moral justification for doing such things.

God decides to ignore all the killings, torture, rape, and suffering in the world at, say, 11:15AM on a Saturday to "fsck" with someone humorously?

I don't think God ignores anything. And I believe that God can see and do numerous things simultaneously. God probably does not have to play by the rules of what we consider "time."

I have a feeling that you're having a hard time following me. I did not state that God cannot do numerous things at once, nor that he is limited by time. That was not my point. I am stating that he seemingly lets atrocities happen at the same time that he is humoring someone halfway across the world. The point is that he is NOT doing these things simultaneously.

Are you asking me why God allows attrocities?

Edit: No, that does not seem to be what you are asking. So, yes, I am having a hard time understanding what it is you are asking, or just implying.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
We are not talking about the simple "capability" to do such things. We are talking about the moral justification for doing such things.

God decides to ignore all the killings, torture, rape, and suffering in the world at, say, 11:15AM on a Saturday to "fsck" with someone humorously?

I don't think God ignores anything. And I believe that God can see and do numerous things simultaneously. God probably does not have to play by the rules of what we consider "time."

I have a feeling that you're having a hard time following me. I did not state that God cannot do numerous things at once, nor that he is limited by time. That was not my point. I am stating that he seemingly lets atrocities happen at the same time that he is humoring someone halfway across the world. The point is that he is NOT doing these things simultaneously.

Are you asking me why God allows attrocities?

Edit: No, that does not seem to be what you are asking. So, yes, I am having a hard time understanding what it is you are asking, or just implying.

I'm asking why God would take the time to humor someone or himself while at the same time ignoring atrocities. But I don't know why I bother anymore to ask because the answer is always the same "God's plan is unknown to us humans." There are just infinite ways to rationalize a being that has no limits.

 

[IGBT]

..I'm shure there's lots going on we don't understand and like the earthworm there's things we will never understand.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: Tuktuk

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Tuktuk
Let them stay sane then. Where is the problem in that? What is your argument?

I have the feeling you're going to start into claiming God cannot exist for reasons X, Y, and Z. Atheists sound so logical in their arguments, but fail to see that their argument is just as a silly as a believer's. The truth is none of us is capable of knowing whether or not God exists, and those who take a side do so for personal reasons but must remember always that their word is not final.

My argument is that there's a different side to every coin. I am simply questioning, and hopefully making you question as well, the foundation of your previous assertion that God has a sense of humor. It arose when I read the statement "God has a sense of humor" when in fact too much of the world should not be considered humorous, and to humor someone while at the same time ignoring other atrocities seems decidedly un-characteristic of a supposedly supremely-benevolent being.

I think that you'd be interested to know that I am in fact a theist. I just strongly disagree with many of the "philosophies" of other God-believers.

In the end, what do we as human beings have to fall back on other than our rationality and free will? These are supposedly God-given attributes, right? I see absolutely no reason then to use these gifts to intelligently and to constantly question our world and our existence. I feel that God would highly regard those who think hard and constantly about their world and existence, regardless of whether they believe in him or not.

"I am God. I admit that I am mysterious to every human being. There are those who follow me without question. Then there are those who think, who try their damnest to find the truth in the world, who question everything and who keep an open mind. They are using their sentience and limited intelligence to make the best with what they've got. How can I fault them for questioning such things, even if ultimately they come to the wrong conclusion when they die?"

Thinking is not a sin.

I think you're taking a very human perspective on atrocities. Let's say God does exist, and is a "he" for the sake of simplicity in arguing. He knows that a child being blown to bits by a suicide bomber isn't simply dead and gone. He knows the future of that child's soul and if what many religions say is true, he knows that the child will enter paradise. What a great reward! How is this not a great situation for the child? If the child's being blown to bits is positive, how can God not find humor in the situations sorrounding the child's death?

I don't think you can so easily dismiss the idea of God "messing with us." Wars, famine, genocide.. all terrible things, but in the grand scheme of things and with the assumption there is an afterlife, the horror of these things in our world can be dismissed if considered in a different context.

Oh, I agree that the idea of God is wide open and that his plan or existence is absolutely unknowable to any of us. We can speculate different contexts till we die and none of us will have gotten closer to anything. But the point is that we speculate, that we keep on thinking. I'm just pointing out strange things concerning your views and you're pointing out strange things concerning my views. It is the way things should be.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
We are not talking about the simple "capability" to do such things. We are talking about the moral justification for doing such things.

God decides to ignore all the killings, torture, rape, and suffering in the world at, say, 11:15AM on a Saturday to "fsck" with someone humorously?

I don't think God ignores anything. And I believe that God can see and do numerous things simultaneously. God probably does not have to play by the rules of what we consider "time."

I have a feeling that you're having a hard time following me. I did not state that God cannot do numerous things at once, nor that he is limited by time. That was not my point. I am stating that he seemingly lets atrocities happen at the same time that he is humoring someone halfway across the world. The point is that he is NOT doing these things simultaneously.

Are you asking me why God allows attrocities?

Edit: No, that does not seem to be what you are asking. So, yes, I am having a hard time understanding what it is you are asking, or just implying.

I'm asking why God would take the time to humor someone or himself while at the same time ignoring atrocities. But I don't know why I bother anymore to ask because the answer is always the same "God's plan is unknown to us humans." There are just infinite ways to rationalize a being that has no limits.

You are certainly correct.

But IIRC, war is a punishment for our sins, or at least the result of them. I have pondered on that at times, and have not really been able to completely understand that. Nevertheless, there are cetainly attrocities other than war.

I don't think God ignores attrocities, but really that is irrelevent, because He certainly allows them to happen.

Certainly, there are parallels of humanity. Because we are capable of being sad, we know what it is to be happy, and the opposite is true, too. Maybe we are forced to see attrocities, the pure evil of man, so that we may too see the pure good of man. Could we understand the good of Gandhi if we could not understand the evil of Hitler? Maybe we are forced to see how evil we can be only so that we can also see how good we can be.

But again, you are correct, we can rationalize things because there are no concrete answers. However, we need not know the answer to a question to learn from it. Sometimes if the answer seems obvious, we cease to think about the question.

 

[hzl eyed grl]

I already do. When I was a child, I would freak my mom out because I'd see angels. I barely remember them, except one from when I was maybe 5 years old or so.

 

[AnthroAndStargate]

Genocide to end. Humanity to progress. Injustice to cease. Since a God hasn't shown up yet I guess it's on us to fix those things...

 

[bersl2]

The deity would have to agree to go public with his/her/its existence and to help us verify such a thing.

Optionally, I have a list of a few things which would each turn me into a believer for an extended period of time (one of them almost came to pass last month and looks to be possible for many more years to come), and a list of highly improbable things that would each turn me into a permanent believer. No, you're not going to hear that last list. (Maybe the first one if I feel like it later---as if any of you were interested...)

 

[I Saw OJ]

I asked my G/F these same questions about why God would let bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. The way she explained it to me was that God had given humans free will and he had no authority on earth any longer. Earth was mans domain and God could only act on earth if he was giving permision, through prayer.

 

[IntrinsicValue]

See sig.

Therefore, there is no human event that could occur to convince me one way or the other.

 

[skace]

It would take a need for faith to make me believe in God. Currently, that need is absent.

 

[WildHorse]

How can anybody be so blinded by the world or so absorbed in themselves as to not believe in God, self-evident everywhere?

 

[Stumps]

hmmm, I believe in A god...but not how any sort of religion would have him be, the way I see it is anything thing created by man can be corrupted...ESPECIALLY religion...it's all BS designed to influence people in to behaving and acting as other want them too.

What if God did create the earth...but not like Genesis would have you believe...but more like a terraformer, planting the seeds of life on planets and then letting them go....and evolve...

Too much crazy sh!t happens to deny the presence of a "divine" being...but it's not really how religion would have it...

but this is just my opinion...

 

[Isla]

I believe in a force/energy that is part of our being and connects us all. What I'll never believe in is the personification of that energy. I don't believe in some paternal, immortal humanoid watching over us. I believe that "god" is in us, works through us, but never the less, is still just a part of us.

 

[judasmachine]

dear god, can i have some lasagna now?


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