What would it take for you to believe in God?

[busmaster11]

The fact is, there should be nothing in these stories that has the power to convict and convince that the Gospel and Pentacost doesn't. All the prophecies fulfilled, all the preaching, all the predictions and miracles Jesus performed, culminating in His death on the cross and his resurection and appearance to witnesses, plus the Spirit-filled signs seen during Pentacost, should be more than enough drama and awe than it takes to believe in God...

...That is, if that was possible. According to Matthew 16:4, A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. But no sign shall be given except the sign of the Prophet Jonah. Jonah, as you might remember, spent three days in the stomach of a large fish because he disobeyed God. This reference points back to Jesus and the Gospel.

Signs and miracles provide drama, but they do not equate to faith. I have studied lots of science in an attempt to reconcile God to science for my faith, and looked to miracles. But my faith was always failing me. Only God can provide the faith to believe and accept His grace. Eph 2:8-9 - For it is by grace we have been saved through faith... this not of ourselves but a gift of God - not by works so no man can boast - referring to both grace, and the faith to accept it - are from God.

To sum up, the faith of true believers comes from the Gospel and reverence for His Word - not miracles. Believers must always pray for faith, humility and brokeness.

 

[Acanthus]

The apocolypse would do it.

 

[Mr Pepper]

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: sao123
To get more to the issue, even if many people knew God existed... would they still conform to his laws? Already posters in this thread & others claim how God is unjust & unfair. A jealous genocidal massochistic deity who is too strict in his rules of sexuality etc....

If you wont follow him through faith... you wont follow him through knowledge.
The cost of following God is great, and few are willing to accept it.

Which god and which laws? I ain't givin' up bacon and BBQ ribs for nobody.

I would specifically be speaking about Christianity, but this same sentiment could be applied to any of big 3 the monotheistic religions

The "jealous genocidal massochistic deity" is in the OT, which is Judaism. The Christian God in the NT is actually a really nice guy. "Love thy neighbor," "Turn the other cheek," "The meek will inherit the earth," etc.

Im not here to argue religion... but the Net Testament is meaningless without the foundations of the old.

Says who?

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Tuktuk
I feel like I got in here late but I'll chime in anyway.

The times when I return to a belief in God, if only for a short time, is when the strangest coincidences happen. Sometimes I think there is a God and the bastard just has the greatest sense of humor. There have been times when situations have arisen that I seriously doubt could have happened without intervention. Situations like running into someone at the worst time in the worst place, where you never would have expected them and the chances of you two actually being there are one in a million. All I can really do after situations like that is laugh to myself and laugh at God for fscking with me.

I have had extremely similar experiences. If you have read the New Testemant, you know that Jesus was actually very comical.

Every person I have met that is, uhh, logically religious (if that makes sense, or maybe very religious, but not in a fundamentalist kind of way) has had a really good sense of humor, a very funny person. Including one member of AT, a gentleman I used to work with, and a few priests I knew from back in the days of my church-going.

I have a hard time lining up the idea of "God has a sense of humor" with the existence of things in the world such as brutal tribal genocide and suicide bombings. It seems to me that such a "haha" philosophy only arises in societies that are lucky enough to be politically and economically stable. If you're in Iraq or caught in the middle of a tribal war in Africa, I doubt you would have the luxury of such a way of thinking about God.

I think perhaps his/her/its idea of humor would be different than ours...
Actually, this kind of fits in with what would be the Old Testament's idea of God's humor.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Well... most people who claim not to believe in God actually do believe. They just hate him. "Him" being used in the metaphysical sense here, as it actually reflects their own internal hatred. "God" is, for lack of a better way to describe it, the individual's perception of the external world. People who have a positive view of God tend to have a positive view of the world, and people who have a negative view of God tend to have a negative view of the world. In this fashion, the concept of God serves a useful purpose for humanity, although it can be dangerous. A better solution IMO would be to correct the false way in which most people view the world, which is that people generally think they are outside looking in when they are really inside looking out. If we could fix that, if we could fix this failure of perception that leads most people to believe that their own problems are actually the world's problems (or the world's fault), and we might finally get somewhere.

 

[Crono]

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. " - Romans 1:18-32

 

[Mr Pepper]

It would take about the same amount of convincing as believing gravity exists.

God will be God whether we like it not. Comprehension is not a requisite for existence. It would be insane to put your faith in something you can grasp. If you could grasp it, you would be either equal to, or greater than it. I hope we have better sense than to put faith in any thing that humanity has to offer.

Men are responsible for the grizzly acts of cowardice and barbarism we see every day, not God. The amazing thing is that He still chooses to pursue us and love us regardless. If you can't see Him, just open your eyes.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

People like you scare me.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: Mr Pepper
It would take about the same amount of convincing as believing gravity exists.

God will be God whether we like it not. Comprehension is not a requisite for existence. It would be insane to put your faith in something you can grasp. If you could grasp it, you would be either equal to, or greater than it. I hope we have better sense than to put faith in any thing that humanity has to offer.

Men are responsible for the grizzly acts of cowardice and barbarism we see every day, not God. The amazing thing is that He still chooses to pursue us and love us regardless. If you can't see Him, just open your eyes.

Maybe, but men have done and are currently doing many grizzly acts in his name. If there were no god, the only reason they could present was that they wanted power. In which case they would have only a few followers.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Wait, more specifically, what is the least possible thing that would cause you to believe in God?

A look in the eyes of the sincerest pursuers.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I believe in Jesus.

He mows my lawn every Sunday and his wife cleans my house for me.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

Zeus (or Deus, same thing, Zeus is the anglicized form of the Greek word that means "God") is the Christian God. The first Christians were Greeks, and they called him Zeus (or Deus, same thing). The word Jesus is derived from Yah-Zeus, which literally meant "Jew God." Latin languages, like Spanish, French, Italian, etc. still call God "Zeus," but in derived forms like Dios, Dieu, Dio, (and even Deus in Portuguese), etc. It's also the etymology of the English word "deity." The English word "God" is derived from Woden, the Norse God. Thanks for playing though.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

Unless you truly believe in zeus as your god, that comment is entirely vacuous and makes no sense. I'd love to ask just what your evidence is for zeus as your god, but I realize it will only escalate a pointless debate as it will not lead to faith. Only the Spirit, through repentance, brokeness and humility can do that.

I do pray that one day you will see how your attitude has been a perfect example of the hardness RapidSnail refers to.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Crono
"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. " - Romans 1:18-32

Sentencing an awful lot of people to death there, bub. Way to show your love for your fellow man :heart:

 

[Mr Pepper]

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: Mr Pepper
It would take about the same amount of convincing as believing gravity exists.

God will be God whether we like it not. Comprehension is not a requisite for existence. It would be insane to put your faith in something you can grasp. If you could grasp it, you would be either equal to, or greater than it. I hope we have better sense than to put faith in any thing that humanity has to offer.

Men are responsible for the grizzly acts of cowardice and barbarism we see every day, not God. The amazing thing is that He still chooses to pursue us and love us regardless. If you can't see Him, just open your eyes.

Maybe, but men have done and are currently doing many grizzly acts in his name. If there were no god, the only reason they could present was that they wanted power. In which case they would have only a few followers.

No argument there. Saying you are a "follower" and being one, are two different animals. Doing something in another's name is often times a way of doing what you want, and saying you are doing it for someone else. And even so, it's another good lesson that religion is not the answer, God is.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

Zeus (or Deus, same thing, Zeus is the anglicized form of the Greek word that means "God") is the Christian God. The first Christians were Greeks, and they called him Zeus (or Deus, same thing). The word Jesus is derived from Yah-Zeus, which literally meant "Jew God." Latin languages, like Spanish, French, Italian, etc. still call God "Zeus," but in derived forms like Dios, Dieu, Dio, (and even Deus in Portuguese), etc. It's also the etymology of the English word "deity." The English word "God" is derived from Woden, the Norse God. Thanks for playing though.

The name Jesus comes from Yeshua (equivalent to Joshua) which is a Hebrew name meaning "the Lord saves". It was a fairly common name even before Jesus Christ was born.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I believe in Jesus.

He mows my lawn every Sunday and his wife cleans my house for me.

Jesus is Spanish for Joshua. Just like Diego is Spanish for James and Pablo for Paul. Joshua goes back to the Hebrew for Yeshua, which (like all Hebrew names has a meaning) means "God is Salvation." The Spanish word for Jesus Christ is Jesucristo.

Thank you for playing too. I hope you're not paying Jesus and his wife under the table.

 

[Tuktuk]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I believe in Jesus.

He mows my lawn every Sunday and his wife cleans my house for me.

Jesus is Spanish for Joshua. Just like Diego is Spanish for James and Pablo for Paul. Joshua goes back to the Hebrew for Yeshua, which (like all Hebrew names has a meaning) means "God is Salvation." The Spanish word for Jesus Christ is Jesucristo.

Thank you for playing too. I hope you're not paying Jesus and his wife under the table.

I believe Jesus = Yeshua.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

Zeus (or Deus, same thing, Zeus is the anglicized form of the Greek word that means "God") is the Christian God. The first Christians were Greeks, and they called him Zeus (or Deus, same thing). The word Jesus is derived from Yah-Zeus, which literally meant "Jew God." Latin languages, like Spanish, French, Italian, etc. still call God "Zeus," but in derived forms like Dios, Dieu, Dio, (and even Deus in Portuguese), etc. It's also the etymology of the English word "deity." The English word "God" is derived from Woden, the Norse God. Thanks for playing though.

The name Jesus comes from Yeshua (equivalent to Joshua) which is a Hebrew name meaning "the Lord saves". It was a fairly common name even before Jesus Christ was born.

That's the Hebrew. It was the Greeks who gave us Jesus Christ, and to them it meant "Jewish God the Annoited One" (Cristos).
They called him Deus (which we call Zeus). That was their word for the Almighty God of everything. The Ancient Greeks were really no more polytheistic than a Catholic who venerates the saints and the Virgin Mother. The whole idea of polytheism is a crock of early anthropology.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Crono
"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. " - Romans 1:18-32

Sentencing an awful lot of people to death there, bub. Way to show your love for your fellow man :heart:

I'm not judging anyone. Those who do/have done/are those things are deserving of death. That means every single person who ever lived deserves death and hell, including myself. The only way to be saved is by God's grace; no matter who you are, no matter what you have done, God still loves you. He hates sin greatly, but He does not want you to perish. He provided salvation by the death of His Son, Jesus, on the cross so that you may be saved. All you have to do to be saved is repent of your sin, accept Christ's gift of salvation, and put your faith and trust in Him.

 

[Juddog]

Originally posted by: Tuktuk

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I believe in Jesus.

He mows my lawn every Sunday and his wife cleans my house for me.

Jesus is Spanish for Joshua. Just like Diego is Spanish for James and Pablo for Paul. Joshua goes back to the Hebrew for Yeshua, which (like all Hebrew names has a meaning) means "God is Salvation." The Spanish word for Jesus Christ is Jesucristo.

Thank you for playing too. I hope you're not paying Jesus and his wife under the table.

I believe Jesus = Yeshua.

Yeshua = Joshua? :|

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

Zeus (or Deus, same thing, Zeus is the anglicized form of the Greek word that means "God") is the Christian God. The first Christians were Greeks, and they called him Zeus (or Deus, same thing). The word Jesus is derived from Yah-Zeus, which literally meant "Jew God." .

Thats pretty hilarious. This is a perfect example of how people can sound so authoritative and yet spread nothing but deceit on the net.

Jesus is derived from Joshua, which means Jehovah saves, not, LOL, "jew god". The first Joshua recorded in the OT book of the same name lived around (I wanna say 800BC, but it could be earlier) and predates the Greeks you speak of.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Crono
"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. " - Romans 1:18-32

Sentencing an awful lot of people to death there, bub. Way to show your love for your fellow man :heart:

I'm not judging anyone. Those who do/have done/are those things are deserving of death. That means every single person who ever lived deserves death and hell, including myself. The only way to be saved is by God's grace; no matter who you are, no matter what you have done, God still loves you. He hates sin greatly, but He does not want you to perish. He provided salvation by the death of His Son, Jesus, on the cross so that you may be saved. All you have to do to be saved is repent of your sin, accept Christ's gift of salvation, and put your faith and trust in Him.

Thanks, but although he had a lot of really nice stuff to say, and you could do a lot worse than to emulate him, I don't believe he was the son of god, nor the only path to salvation, nor the original sin, nor any of the miracles. Beliefs like that only serve to divide, not unite. We'd all be a lot better off if Jefferson's Bible was the most popular version.