What will be AMD'S next Move?

[96Firebird]

If we're interested in the second one, then the questions to answer are "what did Tom's run?" and "what was the throughput?" Without knowing those two, then trying to talk about efficiency is a waste of time.

Exactly. I've searched through the review and couldn't find the answer to these questions. Unless I am missing something, that is a huge fail by Tom's. Especially considering they spent so much of the article talking about the results.

 

[Silverforce11]

Russian, when NV gets into a bad spot its not a problem because they are sitting on a massive wad of cash.

AMD gets into trouble? No cash and a CPU division that is crippling them for so long... :/

Also, while you or I buy based on value, NV do have a massive fanbase that DGAF about what AMD has to offer since they will never buy it, regardless. When AMD makes a good product, they are somewhat sad & happy all at once, because it forces NV to drop prices (cheaper for them to own NV!).

NV has this & their dominance in the HPC market & notebook/mobiles to pull them through tough times. What does AMD have? <- AMD's GPU division IS THEIR BUFFER to tough times.

 

[desprado]

Not going to call out specific members here but for the last 8 months, nearly every single person here who is calling doom and gloom for AMD not once pointed out the following:

1) $350-400 after-market 290 made $450-500 3GB 780 irrelevant and even more so the $550 6GB version. Yet, I saw a total of 0 threads regarding the horrible value of 780 and how NV was doomed.

2) $700-800 after-market R9 290s such as Sapphire Tri-X solved temperature and noise levels of 290, while crushing a similarly priced 780Ti by 50-70% at 4K and multi-monitor. Essentially 970 SLI brings slightly faster performance for a bit less $$, but amazingly enough when AMD did this for nearly 1 year, somehow it went unnoticed.

3) When AMD brought the flexibility of running multiple displays in Eyefinity with different resolutions and unmatched 4K performance, it was also unnoticed but now with 3x DP 1.2 on 970/980, all you hear is how revolutionary NV's features are for 4K as if people have $ for triple 4K monitors.

4) This is arguably the most unusual position to me by NV fans - they rarely see the awesome value in AMD's products:

- Unlocked and stock/overclocked 6950s crushed 580 stock/overclocked especially at 1600p for a similar price
- 7950s overclocked crushed 680 overclocked for a similar price
- 290s absolutely crushed a 780Ti stock or OC vs. OC for a similar price

Vs.

970 SLI makes 290s obsolete but I cannot buy 2 NV cards for the price of AMD's flagship and beat it by 50-70% like 6950s, 7950s, 290s did to NV's flagship.

So while NV's 970s are awesome, this is nowhere near as impressive what AMD did with its 2nd best cards to NV's best I outlined above. From a performance point of view, 970 SLI isn't that much better than nearly 1 year old 290s.

Furthermore, while 970 is a star, 980 is grossly underwhelming. It is easily the worst generational improvement from NV ever for an x80 product. I get that it's not GM200 but at $549 and barely 7-10% faster than 780Ti, it won't be hard for AMD to match or beat that.

In the short term, all AMD needs to do is release a 15-20% faster card than 290X for $449 with LC and it's lights out for 980. These calls of a 350W card are hilarious. Watercooled chip will use 40-50W less power and a more mature 28nm with tweaks will allow AMD to release a card 15-20% faster than 290X at 280W. Add a popular game bundle and they are back long enough for 20nm to mature.

Also, I read comments that 285 needs to come down to $149 and 290 to $249. That's really funny considering the inferior 760 has a $219 MSRP. I see that NV's marketing is working wonders as people are falling on their knees over it and exaggerating how efficient the 980 is when it's really using 180W not 160W. On the other hand, the same people are inflating 290's power usage and extrapolating some outrageous 350W for its successor.

You know how many ppl will take a $100 less 980 level performance card even if it uses 80-100W more power? A lot because not everyone pays $100s on their electricity bill. Similarly if AMD releases a 550mm2 390X that's prices at $499 with LC and it beats 980 by even 10%, even with 80-100W higher usage, a lot of people will want the fastest single GPU.

I will likely be getting 970s for fun unless AMD has something better in the next 1 month but 970s are nowhere near as impressive vs. 290s compared to what 290s did to a 780Ti for nearly 1 year. But unfortunately NV fans never acknowledge the awesome value of AMD CF or the incredible value AMD cards had since 4870 days.

First thing AMD do not have fans like Nvidia that can buy there product even they sell expensive so AMD has no choice but to sell it cheap.

Second is that AMD do not have market position like Nvidia because Nvidia dominate in professional and mobile GPUs and now nearly more than 60% DGPU market is controlled by Nvidia.

Third is that AMD has more problems than Nvidia for example problem in Dx9 games,Crossfire issue e.t.c.

Fourth is that even Nvidia sold there product expensive still they out sold and dominated AMD in every term u can name and know there is no price difference that people complained so AMD has very narrow chance to sale there R9 2xx series at $300.

 

[desprado]

Russian, when NV gets into a bad spot its not a problem because they are sitting on a massive wad of cash.

AMD gets into trouble? No cash and a CPU division that is crippling them for so long... :/

Also, while you or I buy based on value, NV do have a massive fanbase that DGAF about what AMD has to offer since they will never buy it, regardless. When AMD makes a good product, they are somewhat sad & happy all at once, because it forces NV to drop prices (cheaper for them to own NV!).

NV has this & their dominance in the HPC market & notebook/mobiles to pull them through tough times. What does AMD have? <- AMD's GPU division IS THEIR BUFFER to tough times.

Bro i tell u Nvidia is greedy because of there fans.Nvidia fanboys always complain about Nvidia but still they wont ever buy AMD and that type of Fanboys AMD is really lacking.

 

[Silverforce11]

Bro i tell u Nvidia is greedy because of there fans.Nvidia fanboys always complain about Nvidia but still they wont ever buy AMD and that type of Fanboys AMD is really lacking.

Well you said it, not me. Whatever reference term you use to describe it, its a real phenomenon. NV do have a mass of fans that are very loyal, just like Apple has hordes willing to camp out days in advance for the iPhone 6 launch (really? 750p for a 4.7" screen is revolutionary? WTF 1080p for a 5.5" is somehow awesome?!.. 1GB of ram is great??! welcome to 2012..).

And because of this, NV knows damn well they can price a premium on their cards and still sell very well. This is what they have been doing all this time (huge premium pricing) except for a few rare cards, the 970 being one of them.

 

[mrmt]

There is a difference, though. Nvidia is outselling AMD nearly two to one. A weakness in one particular product is much less threatening to them as a result. Damage to Nvidia would bring parity - the same damage to AMD could bring complete failure.

This power consumption gap trend is rather worrying for AMD from a business point of view. This will outright kill them on the mobile market and practically kill them on the professional market, two areas they are betting the farm they will grow and two areas where there's a lot of money to be made. That's a Conroe launch we are witnessing here, where the efficiency gap eroded the value of AMD line up in every single high margin market we could think.

 

[desprado]

Well you said it, not me. Whatever reference term you use to describe it, its a real phenomenon. NV do have a mass of fans that are very loyal, just like Apple has hordes willing to camp out days in advance for the iPhone 6 launch (really? 750p for a 4.7" screen is revolutionary? WTF 1080p for a 5.5" is somehow awesome?!.. 1GB of ram is great??! welcome to 2012..).

And because of this, NV knows damn well they can price a premium on their cards and still sell very well. This is what they have been doing all this time (huge premium pricing) except for a few rare cards, the 970 being one of them.

GTX 970 is master stock from Nvidia side.It has really shifted the whole market of Mid range and high end gpus.

I swear i never expected them to sell GTX 970 at that price but it is good that they listening to fans and i hope this keeps going.

 

[desprado]

This power consumption gap trend is rather worrying for AMD from a business point of view. This will outright kill them on the mobile market and practically kill them on the professional market, two areas they are betting the farm they will grow and two areas where there's a lot of money to be made. That's a Conroe launch we are witnessing here, where the efficiency gap eroded the value of AMD line up in every single high margin market we could think.

Yup AMD Gpus dont even have 10% of mobile market.The real fight is between Nvidia and Intel in mobile market.

 

[RussianSensation]

I am not talking about market share. I am talking about how NV fans refuse to acknowledge price/performance, overclocking and dual GPU value when it comes to AMD. I've been following this forum for so long and with seeing 290s vs. 780Ti and now the hype of 970 SLI, it's blatantly obvious there is a double standard. I will stick to my original assertion that NV fans just don't care for AMD products at all. They only care in a sense that when AMD forces NV to drop prices, they like buying cheaper NV cards.

Right now the market share erosion of AMD is coming from brand agnostic users such as myself switching sides. But even if 390X beat 980 by 50% for $399, NV fans would keep waiting for GM210 even if it took 6-9 months to come out after the 390X. And this is the scariest situation for AMD since they cannot rely on brand agnostic users to only buy AMD products like NV can rely on its Apple-like userbase.

 

[PPB]

GTX 970 is master stock from Nvidia side.It has really shifted the whole market of Mid range and high end gpus.

I swear i never expected to sell GTX 970 at that price but it is good that they listening to fans and i hope this keeps going.

You expected to sell? So you make a living out of selling NV products? No wonder your opinions are so subjective.


Anyone else making a living on NV doing good? Would explain a lot of this failed "AMD doom and gloom" thread.

 

[desprado]

You expected to sell? So you make a living out of selling NV products? No wonder your opinions are so subjective.


Anyone else making a living on NV doing good? Would explain a lot of this failed "AMD doom and gloom" thread.

sorry wrong words...

I am about to sell my GTX 780 TI so it is keep going my mind but my bad i have edited.

 

[96Firebird]

You expected to sell? So you make a living out of selling NV products? No wonder your opinions are so subjective.


Anyone else making a living on NV doing good? Would explain a lot of this failed "AMD doom and gloom" thread.

I like how it was probably a typo and you jump to the conclusion that he sells Nvidia cards. Stick the word "them" between "expected" and "to", and you'll see what he probably meant.

Or continue to bash other members, no dirt off my shoulder.

 

[desprado]

I am not talking about market share. I am talking about how NV fans refuse to acknowledge price/performance, overclocking and dual GPU value when it comes to AMD. I've been following this forum for so long and with seeing 290s vs. 780Ti and now the hype of 970 SLI, it's blatantly obvious there is a double standard. I will stick to my original assertion that NV fans just don't care for AMD products at all. They only care in a sense that when AMD forces NV to drop prices, they like buying cheaper NV cards.

Right now the market share erosion of AMD is coming from brand agnostic users such as myself switching sides. But even if 390X beat 980 by 50% for $399, NV fans would keep waiting for GM210 even if it took 6-9 months to come out after the 390X. And this is the scariest situation for AMD since they cannot rely on brand agnostic users to only buy AMD products like NV can rely on its Apple-like userbase.

What do mean by over clocking.Most of the world records of overclocking GPU are broken by Nvidia fans by using Nvidia gpu.

I dont want to go there but Nvidia GPUs are much cooler,less power consumption,much much better overclocking from my experience using R9 290 and better drivers.

 

[mrmt]

Yup AMD Gpus dont even have 10% of mobile market.The real fight is between Nvidia and Intel in mobile market.

I'd say Intel will fight alone on the mobile market. Intel sells the entire SoC and they have better process than Nvidia and they have far more leverage with OEMs and with the channel, this gives them an insurmountable advantage if they decide to go full speed ahead with GPU design. The big question is how much Intel wants to spend on this venture. The real fight between Intel and Nvidia will happen on the professional market. If Intel can sell MIC chips and their graphics as the de facto standard on the market, Nvidia is out, but if Nvidia can establish itself as the de facto standard, then there's a nice, juicy licencing deal waiting for them in the future.

 

[Silverforce11]

Right now the market share erosion of AMD is coming from brand agnostic users such as myself switching sides. But even if 390X beat 980 by 50% for $399, NV fans would keep waiting for GM210 even if it took 6-9 months to come out after the 390X. And this is the scariest situation for AMD since they cannot rely on brand agnostic users to only buy AMD products like NV can rely on its Apple-like userbase.

And this is why I tell you AMD is in a very dangerous situation. When they perform and deliver great products, they have a TOUGH time to win back marketshare. When they beat NV to a new node or arch, NV fans simply waited.

I know from personal experience with lots of colleagues who only buy NV products, always, for notebooks or PC. NV can rely on them when it messes up, as history has shown.

AMD cannot rely on its user base to stay loyal when it messes up. By default, most AMD users go for bang for buck, not brand.

Why? It's pretty simple, they have always been the 2nd option, since the early CPU era. You had Intel dominating, you buy AMD if you were perf/$ conscious, but most folks just pay the premium for "the best". Once in awhile, they manage to be "the best" but it was not sustained long enough to build a generation of loyalty. The same for ATI. The top dog was 3dfx then nVidia.

This is why I am calling it, if AMD mess up with GCN 2 and it arrives late AND not competitive on perf/w along with perf/mm2, they are doomed.

 

[SlickR12345]

lol, its funny that when AMD focuses on features they get called out, when they release based on efficiency they get called out when they do absolute perf they also get called out. There is no victory for the underdog.

Exactly, no one talked about the Nvidia 400 series utter garbage video quality, no one talked about Nvidia terrible power consumption with Fermi, no one talked when Nvidia was stuck on DX10.1 cards, when AMD had DX 11 cards out.

But Nvidia has lower power consumption for the first time in 5 years, and its the best thing ever, Nvidia has 1 new feature and its the best thing ever.

AMD have been so much better and further with their GPU's its not even funny.

The last good card that came out of Nvidia was the GTX 460 and even those had terrible video quality compared to AMD.

 

[Attic]

I am not talking about market share. I am talking about how NV fans refuse to acknowledge price/performance, overclocking and dual GPU value when it comes to AMD. I've been following this forum for so long and with seeing 290s vs. 780Ti and now the hype of 970 SLI, it's blatantly obvious there is a double standard. I will stick to my original assertion that NV fans just don't care for AMD products at all. They only care in a sense that when AMD forces NV to drop prices, they like buying cheaper NV cards.

Right now the market share erosion of AMD is coming from brand agnostic users such as myself switching sides. But even if 390X beat 980 by 50% for $399, NV fans would keep waiting for GM210 even if it took 6-9 months to come out after the 390X. And this is the scariest situation for AMD since they cannot rely on brand agnostic users to only buy AMD products like NV can rely on its Apple-like userbase.

I thought the 290 got lots of accolades and respect from the forum.

 

[96Firebird]

Exactly, no one talked about the Nvidia 400 series utter garbage video quality, no one talked about Nvidia terrible power consumption with Fermi, no one talked when Nvidia was stuck on DX10.1 cards, when AMD had DX 11 cards out.

Not sure if serious...

D:

 

[Silverforce11]

Exactly, no one talked about the Nvidia 400 series utter garbage video quality, no one talked about Nvidia terrible power consumption with Fermi, no one talked when Nvidia was stuck on DX10.1 cards, when AMD had DX 11 cards out.

But Nvidia has lower power consumption for the first time in 5 years, and its the best thing ever, Nvidia has 1 new feature and its the best thing ever.

AMD have been so much better and further with their GPU's its not even funny.

The last good card that came out of Nvidia was the GTX 460 and even those had terrible video quality compared to AMD.

We talked about all those things, a lot actually. I was with the chorus bashing the gtx480 for its ridiculous power use for its performance level (I also bashed the reference 7900 & R290/X cooling).

The problem, is the person on the street and not on a tech forum. NV = numero uno. This vibe is particularly strong here in Australia. Retailers often markup NV cards an extra 10-20% over MSRP after currency conversion & 10% VAT, whereas AMD cards are generally spot on at its correct price. Still, NV cards sell extremely well.

 

[mrmt]

I am not talking about market share. I am talking about how NV fans refuse to acknowledge price/performance, overclocking and dual GPU value when it comes to AMD.

You get what you pay for, and AMD GPU business is getting exactly what it paid for with its marketing strategy.

The AMD brand was never a premium brand except for the years between K8 and Conroe. Most of the time it was always a value brand, and this is where things go awry for AMD. It's not possible to have a message entirely focused in value when talking about CPU and APU and start talking premium when talking about GPUs. What works for one doesn't work for the other, one of the sides get diluted and guess which one was in AMD's case.

Forget price/performance, forget performance/watt, most people just want to buy something they think it's good within a given budget and forget about it for the next 2-3 years, and this is where Nvidia's brand shines. Nvidia has a quality halo that gives comfort to the user to spend some more money and forget about it. AMD doesn't, AMD must have a lower price tag otherwise nobody will look for them.

 

[Jumpem]

I can't believe there are still people carrying water for AMD at this point.

 

[f1sherman]

I can't believe there are still people carrying water for AMD at this point.

very few...

Across multiple forums... I have never seen this many, (supposedly AMD fans) going absolute bonkers over particular GPU like 970.

Exactly, no one talked about the Nvidia 400 series utter garbage video quality, no one talked about Nvidia terrible power consumption with Fermi

:hmm:

AMD have been so much better and further with their GPU's its not even funny.

The last good card that came out of Nvidia was the GTX 460 and even those had terrible video quality compared to AMD.

 

[Abwx]

Nvidia has a quality halo that gives comfort to the user to spend some more money and forget about it. AMD doesn't, AMD must have a lower price tag otherwise nobody will look for them.

A quality halo that manifested with dozen millions laptops being thrown on the trash bins at the consumer s expenses, in this respect you can effectively assume that they are very good at hiding their poor quality records.

I can't believe there are still people carrying water for AMD at this point.

If you have read the previous post you d knew that it s AMD who is carrying water for its customers, the customers subsiding their brand fully apply to Nvidia if it is what you are talking about.

 

[Zodiark1593]

Rather interesting to see, in the mobile segment where AMD has very little presence, Nvidia's high end gpu pricing dwarfs anything on the desktop side. GK104 chips regularly hit $600-$800 in the mobile segment. I fear this will happen in the desktop segment as well in the absence of competition from AMD.

However, there's little doubt AMD wont take this blow lying down and will put out a kick ass card, then Nvidia will strike back, and so on.

 

[Paul98]

I can not support NVidia if AMD has a reasonable alternative. This is due to how NV does things compared to AMD. NV seems to go out of it's way to lock out AMD, or hurt it's performance. This hurts the industry and consumers, even those who have NVidia since it drastically cuts the adoption of these technologies.