What is this about Minneapolis "defunding" its PD?

[woolfe9998]

This guy makes some bold statements. I dont agree with most of them, but he is raising the level of debate.

"Defund the Police"? Start by Repealing the Laws - James Bovard

Mises Institute, June 23, 2020 Repealing Useless and Abusive Laws Might Do More Good Than “Defunding” the Police by James Bovard “Defund the Police” is the latest rallying cry for protestors in many cities across the nation. Many activists, enraged by the brutal killing of George Floyd by...

jimbovard.com

He does make some valid points. I've been saying that legalizing pot and decriminalizing simple possession of other drugs would be a leap forward in reducing police misconduct, or even "legitimate" (i.e. legal) police conduct which nevertheless feels a lot like harassment.

 

[sportage]

Am I missing something?
I believe what communities wish to do concerning their police force is to remove the bigotry, racism, and the targeting of minorities THEN create a police force that does exactly that and only that.... TO POLICE. NOT to judge, NOT to attack, NOT to carry out some personal anti-minority agenda, NOT to exist as some modern day extension of the KKK, but for gods sake JUST DO YOUR JOB.... POLICE. And so, for communities to get to that point of creating a police force that has no alternative agenda nor axe to grind, communities believe that their current dysfunctional police force must be reconstructed from the ground up. New cops, new training, new attitudes, professionals acting as professional. Just SERVE and PROTECT damnit, and leave your racism and bigotry at home.

Communities understand how deep and how long term this perversion of police protection has been going on across communities and across America, so to fix it will be no simple task. You must first defund, tear it all down, then begin again entirely from scratch. This sickness within our policing system runs deep and drastic measures are needed to "hopefully" correct that sickness. Everyone knows... it won't be easy but it must be done. And frankly, it makes sense that this current Whitehouse would object so vocally to any rebuilding since this current Whitehouse is part of the problem. We have many institutions that are part of the problem, and naturally they too will put up great resistance to any rebuilding of our sick sick policing system within America. What is happening with the defunding process is correct. It is the right thing to do. It is the only option and only solution if the system is to be rebuilt and the problem truly fixed. People must understand, this is a TWO PART process, Defund to kill off the sickness, then rebuilt with that new healthy system.

 

[fskimospy]

As I suspected, people do not actually think ‘defund the police’ means to get rid of the police.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1280879369112748032

 

[fskimospy]

This guy makes some bold statements. I dont agree with most of them, but he is raising the level of debate.

"Defund the Police"? Start by Repealing the Laws - James Bovard

Mises Institute, June 23, 2020 Repealing Useless and Abusive Laws Might Do More Good Than “Defunding” the Police by James Bovard “Defund the Police” is the latest rallying cry for protestors in many cities across the nation. Many activists, enraged by the brutal killing of George Floyd by...

jimbovard.com

One easy answer is to remove cops from traffic enforcement.

 

[JEDIYoda]

One easy answer is to remove cops from traffic enforcement.

I agree!! But then the cities will say -- we need the money that comes from exhorting money from people who drive!!

 

[fskimospy]

I agree!! But then the cities will say -- we need the money that comes from exhorting money from people who drive!!

Oh to be clear I don’t mean end traffic law enforcement, just that you could replace the police who do that with basically the traffic equivalent of parking cops. No guns, no mandate to enforce other laws, just traffic stuff.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Oh to be clear I don’t mean end traffic law enforcement, just that you could replace the police who do that with basically the traffic equivalent of parking cops. No guns, no mandate to enforce other laws, just traffic stuff.

You're basically saying have meter maids do the pulling over and citing of tickets?

Sounds fine on paper - but plenty of cop situations have escalated at the point of traffic citations... because.... wait for it.... plenty of people don't want $300 - $500 tickets.

 

[fskimospy]

You're basically saying have meter maids do the pulling over and citing of tickets?

Sounds fine on paper - but plenty of cop situations have escalated at the point of traffic citations... because.... wait for it.... plenty of people don't want $300 - $500 tickets.

The whole point is to end those escalations.

Who cares if they don’t want to pay it? If they won’t sign the ticket then just mail it to them.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You're basically saying have meter maids do the pulling over and citing of tickets?

Sounds fine on paper - but plenty of cop situations have escalated at the point of traffic citations... because.... wait for it.... plenty of people don't want $300 - $500 tickets.

again, that`s not exactly true at all! The police are the ones who use the Traffic stop to escalate a simple broken tail light.....or not using a turn signal.....

 

[Fanatical Meat]

You're basically saying have meter maids do the pulling over and citing of tickets?

Sounds fine on paper - but plenty of cop situations have escalated at the point of traffic citations... because.... wait for it.... plenty of people don't want $300 - $500 tickets.

Fine then let them go provided they’re not drunk and have a Cop visit them at home when his wife & kids are home. Have the cop do it all outside so the neighbors know.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The whole point is to end those escalations.

Who cares if they don’t want to pay it? If they won’t sign the ticket then just mail it to them.

So just put a warrant out for their arrest so that cops can come arrest them essentially since they didn't sign to appear in court and likely won't?

And on that note - how about when pulling someone over and they have a warrant already?

 

[Vic]

And in the midst of this so-called 'defunding,' Minneapolis police received millions of dollars in overtime pay and hazard bonuses.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The whole point is to end those escalations.

Who cares if they don’t want to pay it? If they won’t sign the ticket then just mail it to them.

Exactly!! It is not as if they don`t have the Car`s license plate or the Driver`s information......exactly! Why make more out of it than what it is? Treat it as a traffic stop and not a fishing expedition for guns or drugs...etc

 

[Fanatical Meat]

And in the midst of this so-called 'defunding,' Minneapolis police received millions of dollars in overtime pay and hazard bonuses.

This is a tricky question because how much OT is being comped by someone else?
In MA it is common to see a cop at a bar on Friday or Saturday night, common to see a Cop doing traffic work for some Parade or Concert or Football game.

 

[fskimospy]

So just put a warrant out for their arrest so that cops can come arrest them essentially since they didn't sign to appear in court and likely won't?

Your obligations are the same whether you sign the ticket or not. People who refuse are usually just angry in the moment. If they refuse to pay their fine then the exact same thing happens under this scenario that happens now, only a potential escalated confrontation didn’t happen. Everyone wins.

The ‘problems’ you are bringing up are features, not bugs.

And on that note - how about when pulling someone over and they have a warrant already?

So to be clear you’re arguing for police to conduct traffic stops as a form of warrant enforcement? Uhmmm.... no.

If you want to enforce warrants then enforce warrants. Militarizing traffic stops is a dumb way to do it.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Your obligations are the same whether you sign the ticket or not. People who refuse are usually just angry in the moment. If they refuse to pay their fine then the exact same thing happens under this scenario that happens now, only a potential escalated confrontation didn’t happen. Everyone wins.

The ‘problems’ you are bringing up are features, not bugs.


So to be clear you’re arguing for police to conduct traffic stops as a form of warrant enforcement? Uhmmm.... no.

If you want to enforce warrants then enforce warrants. Militarizing traffic stops is a dumb way to do it.

I'm not arguing for anything - I'm just asking you questions.

It's easy on paper to say "Okay, axe police on traffic stops - meter maids pick it up with no guns" - sounds great on paper, but these aren't one--off odd-ball questions I'm asking. I'm sure plenty of police officers run into people who get violently belligerent at traffic stops on a weekly basis. I'm sure plenty of police officers run into someone that has a warrant out for their arrest on a weekly basis.

I'm simply saying that plenty of these situations can and will get violent - and do you honestly think meter maids will want to take that risk and enforce those without a gun to protect themselves?

It's one thing to leave parking tickets on someone's car when they aren't in it - it's another to pull someone over and give it to them, run their plates, run their drivers license, etc.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm not arguing for anything - I'm just asking you questions.

It's easy on paper to say "Okay, axe police on traffic stops - meter maids pick it up with no guns" - sounds great on paper, but these aren't one--off odd-ball questions I'm asking. I'm sure plenty of police officers run into people who get violently belligerent at traffic stops on a weekly basis. I'm sure plenty of police officers run into someone that has a warrant out for their arrest on a weekly basis.

I'm simply saying that plenty of these situations can and will get violent - and do you honestly think meter maids will want to take that risk and enforce those without a gun to protect themselves?

It's one thing to leave parking tickets on someone's car when they aren't in it - it's another to pull someone over and give it to them, run their plates, run their drivers license, etc.

If someone tries to escalate it then just drive away. Problem solved.

I mean is the idea that people will routinely become so enraged by traffic tickets that they will go around beating or killing traffic enforcement officers so therefore they have to carry guns to protect themselves?

like, really?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I'm not arguing for anything - I'm just asking you questions.

It's easy on paper to say "Okay, axe police on traffic stops - meter maids pick it up with no guns" - sounds great on paper, but these aren't one--off odd-ball questions I'm asking. I'm sure plenty of police officers run into people who get violently belligerent at traffic stops on a weekly basis. I'm sure plenty of police officers run into someone that has a warrant out for their arrest on a weekly basis.

I'm simply saying that plenty of these situations can and will get violent - and do you honestly think meter maids will want to take that risk and enforce those without a gun to protect themselves?

It's one thing to leave parking tickets on someone's car when they aren't in it - it's another to pull someone over and give it to them, run their plates, run their drivers license, etc.

I think the point is we need to discuss alternatives to traditional Policing it isn’t an attempt to formulate a perfect solution because we never will.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

If someone tries to escalate it then just drive away. Problem solved.

I mean is the idea that people will routinely become so enraged by traffic tickets that they will go around beating or killing traffic enforcement officers so therefore they have to carry guns to protect themselves?

like, really?

I honestly don't think you understand how things work in this country....

#1 - They are signing to acknowledge that they are bound to appear in court. If they don't sign it, then you can't just make-believe that they signed it.

#2 - Like I said, warrants and arrests via traffic stops are a VERY re-occurring things (Not rare events). You're basically saying let every single one of them go.
Someone drunk driving? Let em' go.
Someone has an arrest warrant? Let em' go.
Someone driving wrecklessly bashing into other vehicles? Let em' go.

#3 - Just because you mail someone a ticket doesn't mean that they received it - and nor does it mean you have their up-to-date address.

 

[fskimospy]

I honestly don't think you understand how things work in this country....

#1 - They are signing to acknowledge that they are bound to appear in court. If they don't sign it, then you can't just make-believe that they signed it.

Oh I assure you I do, I think you need a lot of lessons as to how the real world works.

There are already plenty of states where you don’t have to sign traffic tickets. It doesn’t matter if you sign it or not, and courts don’t care if you promise to come or if you don’t. You are required to address the offense regardless.

#2 - Like I said, warrants and arrests via traffic stops are a VERY re-occurring things (Not rare events). You're basically saying let every single one of them go.
Someone drunk driving? Let em' go.
Someone has an arrest warrant? Let em' go.
Someone driving wrecklessly bashing into other vehicles? Let em' go.

This is a ridiculous straw man and you know it. Stop embarrassing yourself with this stupidity.

Removing police from routine traffic enforcement does not, shockingly, mean an end to DUI enforcement and a world in which people can engage in wanton destruction of property without consequence. Police will continue to exist to respond to things involving cars other than people blowing a stop sign or having a tail light out.

I seriously can’t believe that needed to be explained to you.

#3 - Just because you mail someone a ticket doesn't mean that they received it - and nor does it mean you have their up-to-date address.

Those are all in fact their problems, and if left unaddressed will lead to legal consequences for the unpaid tickets.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I didn't make a strawman - you literally said

If someone tries to escalate it then just drive away. Problem solved.

So if a drunk driver escalates it - then just drive off?

I mean what are you expecting here? When the meter maid pulls over a drunk driver you tell him "Okay sir, need you to just wait here there is another officer on the way"... then he just takes off and you're left with nothing. How do you account for these kinds of things?

Again, you CLEARLY don't know how laws work in this country - because each state is different - but in general you still have basic rights.

You also don't seem to understand the concept that just because someone sends you something (a ticket in the mail) - doesn't mean you received it. That shit won't fly in our courts.

 

[fskimospy]

I didn't make a strawman - you literally said

Right. Common sense.

So if a drunk driver escalates it - then just drive off?

I mean what are you expecting here? When the meter maid pulls over a drunk driver you tell him "Okay sir, need you to just wait here there is another officer on the way"... then he just takes off and you're left with nothing. How do you account for these kinds of things?

So you're saying the drunk driver is going to attack the traffic enforcement officer?

If someone is drunk then take down their license plate and call the real cops. If they drive off, the cops will arrest them for that too.

Again, you CLEARLY don't know how laws work in this country - because each state is different - but in general you still have basic rights.

Haha, I assure you that I do. You're the one who doesn't understand basic things. Not signing a ticket does zero to change your legal liability.

You also don't seem to understand the concept that just because someone sends you something (a ticket in the mail) - doesn't mean you received it. That shit won't fly in our courts.

Of course it will, and it already does. Seriously, have you spent any time in the real world?

Today, if you blow through an Easy Pass station without a valid pass or without paying you will be mailed a ticket. You are welcome to claim you never got it - this argument will be ignored and you will still owe it. Same with red light cameras and speeding, two of the most frequent traffic stops that cops do in person.

I'm genuinely confused as to how you thought red light cameras worked. Did you think everyone just claimed they didn't get the ticket and they were all dismissed or something? lol.

 

[woolfe9998]

So just put a warrant out for their arrest so that cops can come arrest them essentially since they didn't sign to appear in court and likely won't?

And on that note - how about when pulling someone over and they have a warrant already?

No need for an arrest warrant for a traffic violation, ever. If they don't appear and don't pay, their license gets suspended. Then their credit gets dinged. That's how it works already. Wouldn't be any different if meter maids issued the initial ticket.

The main problem I see with this approach, however, is DUI situations. Those require detention for a field sobriety test, and physical arrest if the driver fails the test. I don't think that works with meter maids.

 

[fskimospy]

No need for an arrest warrant for a traffic violation, ever. If they don't appear and don't pay, their license gets suspended. Then their credit gets dinged. That's how it works already. Wouldn't be any different if meter maids issued the initial ticket.

The main problem I see with this approach, however, is DUI situations. Those require detention for a field sobriety test, and physical arrest if the driver fails the test. I don't think that works with meter maids.

But isn’t that solved by the meter maid detaining them and calling the actual cops? Are we expecting some epidemic of people fleeing law enforcement or something?

 

[woolfe9998]

If someone is drunk then take down their license plate and call the real cops. If they drive off, the cops will arrest them for that too.

So what you're saying is, the traffic enforcer would conduct the sobriety test, use the portable breathalyzer, then if those tests are failed, he or she would call the cops to come and make a physical arrest? You have to make a physical arrest for DUI in order for the suspect to submit to the real BAC test as the field tests are useless in court. They are only done to provide probable cause for the physical arrest.