What is the point of VTEC on an automatic?

[sillymofo]

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: LAUST My Automatic shifts at Redline, it's much better to know what you are talking about before making a thread dedicated to showing what you don't know

ROFLES! B-but, nobody on this forum does that And, as I stated earlier, not only does my auto shift at redline (7k), I can get it to shift well beyond redline (I've shifted @ 8500 before)

LOL, exactly, my stock redline is 5800 and my rev limiter is 6000, but strangly enough now my truck shifts at 6000RPM and my rev limiter is at 6400. Isn't it nice to experience things in life instead first hand of just being limited to what a friend that you think knows anything said Here I am agreeing with you again

Huh? That's how my car shifts, I don't know wtf you both are talking about... any way... gtg.

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: geno

Not to mention that there's no such thing as a manual Lightning (well, stock from Ford anyways)

I was explaining why Ford made their choice they did


Oh noes! It's like we're stuck in some weird other-worldly dimension :Q Quick! Get back to the real world where we can disagree with each other all the time!

LOL


Geno yah they have direct drive, but all the Renegade classes use C4's and C6's.. Powerglides, all the full body normal cars outside of the Rails

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

I'm well aware of the history of VTEC and how all the riceboys worship it as their god. As usual, when discussing performance and performance only with a ricer, you have to bring up the age old arguments of "HP per liter" and price. No one said anything about price... If you want to stay in the same price range, fine. Toyota's VVTLi is every bit as good as VTEC, and the numbers prove it. Same HP per Liter as Honda engines in the same class, so how is VTEC or i-VTEC any better? Fuel economy? I don't buy sports cars for fuel economy and anyone that does is a fool

VVTLi isn't as mature as a DOHC VTEC setup. There is only one toyota motor with vvtli, the 2zzge and it has more problems the comparable b/k series engines. In particular, the 2zzge has a broken lift bolt problem, the bolt which "turns on" lift gets broken and there is no more power at higher revs. oh btw, yamaha codeveloped the engine, it is not a pure toyota design.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

I'm well aware of the history of VTEC and how all the riceboys worship it as their god. As usual, when discussing performance and performance only with a ricer, you have to bring up the age old arguments of "HP per liter" and price. No one said anything about price... If you want to stay in the same price range, fine. Toyota's VVTLi is every bit as good as VTEC, and the numbers prove it. Same HP per Liter as Honda engines in the same class, so how is VTEC or i-VTEC any better? Fuel economy? I don't buy sports cars for fuel economy and anyone that does is a fool

VVTLi isn't as mature as a DOHC VTEC setup. There is only one toyota motor with vvtli, the 2zzge and it has more problems the comparable b/k series engines. In particular, the 2zzge has a broken lift bolt problem, the bolt which "turns on" lift gets broken and there is no more power at higher revs. oh btw, yamaha codeveloped the engine, it is not a pure toyota design.

Eh, no. VVTLi is in quite a few Toyota engines Do a little more research, you'll see. I didn't say a darn thing about the 2zzge, so I could care less how reliable it is. I'm not here to defend Toyota. Just to prove a point: the 2JZ-GTE had VVTI back in the late 90's. The Celica engine is not the only Toyota engine with variable timing/lift!
My point is simply this: VTEC is not the end-all-be-all performance solution. There are quite a few other variable timing and lift setups out there, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Eh, no. VVTLi is in quite a few Toyota engines Do a little more research, you'll see. I didn't say a darn thing about the 2zzge, so I could care less how reliable it is. I'm not here to defend Toyota. Just to prove a point: the 2JZ-GTE had VVTI back in the late 90's. The Celica engine is not the only Toyota engine with variable timing/lift!
My point is simply this: VTEC is not the end-all-be-all performance solution. There are quite a few other variable timing and lift setups out there, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

My pinky knows more about toyota tuning than you do.

Look again very carefully. VVTL-i is only in one car, the 2zzge celica and matrix. VVTI is only cam phasing, it is not comparable to a traditional two profile vtec setup. No other toyota car has multi profile cams ("lift").

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Eh, no. VVTLi is in quite a few Toyota engines Do a little more research, you'll see. I didn't say a darn thing about the 2zzge, so I could care less how reliable it is. I'm not here to defend Toyota. Just to prove a point: the 2JZ-GTE had VVTI back in the late 90's. The Celica engine is not the only Toyota engine with variable timing/lift!
My point is simply this: VTEC is not the end-all-be-all performance solution. There are quite a few other variable timing and lift setups out there, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

My pinky knows more about toyota tuning than you do.

Look again very carefully. VVTL-i is only in one car, the 2zzge celica and matrix. VVTI is only cam phasing, it is not comparable to a traditional two profile vtec setup. No other toyota car has multi profile cams ("lift").

If the only way you can defend your argument is to get all anal about *one* letter than you might as well give up. The fact remains: Toyota uses variable timing and/or lift in several engines, not just the 2ZZ-GE. Most all of the engines used in modern Lexus' have VVTI, so there
BTW, ever hear of the Corolla T-sport? That's got VVTLi You even just admitted that it's in more than one car when you included the Matrix! Also happens to be in the Lotus Elise

Edit: I'm gonna go take a shower now, so don't be expecting any quick responses from me. I'll think about you while I'm in there j/k! I'll think about VVTLi and Vanos though

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
If the only way you can defend your argument is to get all anal about *one* letter than you might as well give up. The fact remains: Toyota uses variable timing and/or lift in several engines, not just the 2ZZ-GE. Most all of the engines used in modern Lexus' have VVTI, so there
BTW, ever hear of the Corolla T-sport? That's got VVTLi You even just admitted that it's in more than one car when you included the Matrix! Also happens to be in the Lotus Elise

Edit: I'm gonna go take a shower now, so don't be expecting any quick responses from me. I'll think about you while I'm in there j/k! I'll think about VVTLi and Vanos though

Sorry, i meant one "engine", not car. It is only in the 2zzge motor. Cam phasing doesn't produce nearly as dramatic results as multi profile cam setups. Sorry. It's not about being anal, it's about understanding the differences in technology. It's like saying, I am getting anal between a V6 and V8 when there is only one difference in number. They are two totally different things. For high output/small displacement engines, cam phasing alone doesn't product results.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: notfred

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: cr4zymofo
No, not the new car, my other Accord, the '99 coupe (v-6 also).

oh ok. your car doesn't wait until redline to shift? weird

I don't think I've ever seen an automatic go to redline before shifting... My Acura TL S doesn't, my SVT Lighting doesn't, and my Volvo 960 didn't.... Now, I'm not totally flooring it, but I'm getting down there.

Why the fvck would you buy a lightning and NOT floor it?

If you floor it from a standstill, you won't go anywhere. You might spin around in circles, or semicircles, or run into the car sitting next to you at the light... but you won't go fast. You have to take it easy... There's another lightning owner on the board who can back me up on this.

They don't have that high of a stall converter, I have raced plenty of Lightnings at Bandimere that floor it right off the line.

I have no idea what a stall converter is, but what I say is the truth. Also, how did race a Lightning while you were in the cab of one looking at the driver's feet? Are you some kind of wizard?

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: Nebor
I have no idea what a stall converter is, but what I say is the truth. Also, how did race a Lightning while you were in the cab of one looking at the driver's feet? Are you some kind of wizard?

you don't get a 2.3 second 60 foot time in a 4600lb truck feathering the pedal, a higher (for the technical even thought he next sentance states "Stock vehicles don't come with much of a stall (1600RPM) because of the traction issues that come with a high stall") Stall Converter puts you into your powerband sooner if not right when you toucht he gas bepending ont he stall. Stock vehicles don't come with much of a stall (1600RPM) because of the traction issues that come with a high stall.

Yah I'm the Hardware Wizard in your control panel

 

[NutBucket]

Wait, don't you mean high-stall torque converter?

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: NutBucket
Wait, don't you mean high-stall torque converter?

It was quite obvious what I was talking about since the following sentance you skipped over says "Stock vehicles don't come with much of a stall (1600RPM) because of the traction issues that come with a high stall"

 

[NutBucket]

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: NutBucket
Wait, don't you mean high-stall torque converter?

It was quite obvious what I was talking about since the following sentance you skipped over says "Stock vehicles don't come with much of a stall (1600RPM) because of the traction issues that come with a high stall"

Sorry, I don't believe I've heard a tq referred to as "stall converter". Oh wait, that high of a stall converter. The wording threw me off Eh, my family hasn't owned an auto in at least 30 years That's my story and I'm sticking to it

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: NutBucket

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: NutBucket
Wait, don't you mean high-stall torque converter?

It was quite obvious what I was talking about since the following sentance you skipped over says "Stock vehicles don't come with much of a stall (1600RPM) because of the traction issues that come with a high stall"

Sorry, I don't believe I've heard a tq referred to as "stall converter". Oh wait, that high of a stall converter. The wording threw me off Eh, my family hasn't owned an auto in at least 30 years That's my story and I'm sticking to it

thats cool Network Interface Controller = Network Card = NIC kind of thing

We refer to em as a Stall Converter, the Torque Converter is a TC etc

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: NutBucket

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: NutBucket
Wait, don't you mean high-stall torque converter?

It was quite obvious what I was talking about since the following sentance you skipped over says "Stock vehicles don't come with much of a stall (1600RPM) because of the traction issues that come with a high stall"

Sorry, I don't believe I've heard a tq referred to as "stall converter". Oh wait, that high of a stall converter. The wording threw me off Eh, my family hasn't owned an auto in at least 30 years That's my story and I'm sticking to it

thats cool Network Interface Controller = Network Card = NIC kind of thing

We refer to em as a Stall Converter, the Torque Converter is a TC etc

I (and everyone else I know) calls them Torque Converters, because that's what they are There's nothing wrong with the phrase "High-Stall Torque Converter" though Stall Converter just ain't right BTW, my stock TC stalls @ 3500 RPM I love my car

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
If the only way you can defend your argument is to get all anal about *one* letter than you might as well give up. The fact remains: Toyota uses variable timing and/or lift in several engines, not just the 2ZZ-GE. Most all of the engines used in modern Lexus' have VVTI, so there
BTW, ever hear of the Corolla T-sport? That's got VVTLi You even just admitted that it's in more than one car when you included the Matrix! Also happens to be in the Lotus Elise

Edit: I'm gonna go take a shower now, so don't be expecting any quick responses from me. I'll think about you while I'm in there j/k! I'll think about VVTLi and Vanos though

Sorry, i meant one "engine", not car. It is only in the 2zzge motor. Cam phasing doesn't produce nearly as dramatic results as multi profile cam setups. Sorry. It's not about being anal, it's about understanding the differences in technology. It's like saying, I am getting anal between a V6 and V8 when there is only one difference in number. They are two totally different things. For high output/small displacement engines, cam phasing alone doesn't product results.

I can assure you I'm quite well aware of the difference between variable valve timing and variable valve timing with lift, as well as the difference between a V6 and a V8 We're talking about technologies which change the timing and/or lift here. No one (other than you) said both had to be included.
Anyway, I'm gonna go pound a few brewskis with some buddies, you guys have fun talking about cam profiles and the like

 

[Thegonagle]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: cr4zymofo

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: Thegonagle Oh, so much mis-understanding about VTec. And I don't care any more. Suffice to say, because it's akin to having two camshafts to switch between on the fly, they can tune one for good low-end torque and/or efficiency, and one for maximum performance. That's why the V-Tec versions can have more high-end horsepower plus better low-end torque, yet give up nothing in the way of fuel efficiency as opposed to the standard versions. People who really understand engines and see in their heads how V-Tec works are able to appreciate what a fvcking ingenious system it really is, even compared to other VVT systems. (Ever heard of someone swapping the camshaft for one with different performance characteristics? That's what V-Tec does automatically as you drive.)

You mean cam lobes don't you, not the shaft?

No, he meant the shaft (the lobes are machined with the shaft, you can't really "swap" the lobes, but you can grind it), and people do swap out cams for higher performance cams. They do gain performance when doing so, but gives up fuel economy. VTEC would give you that performance at certain RPM range, and also give you better fuel economy when it's not utilized, so it's almost like swapping out cams on the fly, if you can imagine that.

Eh, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "cam profile" than "camshaft"? It's not as though you're actually changing the cam(s) for another type of cam, just the lift and duration at certain RPMs. There's nothing special about Honda's VVT system, especially not compared to say BMW. BMW's Vanos system beats the pants off of VTEC, i-VTEC, or any other "TEC" Honda wants to come up with, period.

What I meant is that it's like having two camshafts in one, because it allows the engine to switch between two different cam profiles depending on what's most appropriate for the RPM it's running at. And it's ingenious because it's simple, reliable, and available on a $16K (US) car.

An advantage VTEC has over many other systems is that when it "kicks in," because the valves run off an entirely different cam lobe, that cam lobe can have different timing, lift, and duration. Mere variable camshaft phasing varies the timing, but not lift or duration. (For an analogy to cam "phasing," think of twisting a distributor to adjust spark timing.)

Granted, there are other systems out there that do these things now, and Honda's i-Vtec now adds variable cam phasing to the regular "two camshafts-in-one" Vtec system, but in my mind, that takes nothing away from the ingenuity of the original Vtec system.

And did I mention that Vtec is mechanically simple, and has proven itself to posess exemplary reliability? (Oh yes, I did.)

 

[Compton]

The bad thing about vtec is that you don't get any lope at idle.

Could you imagine that sound coming out of a fart can?

 

[KEV1N]

Hmm, on my 04 V6 Accord Coupe, it makes it to VTEC in 3rd when you apply full throttle.

 

[boomdart]

Originally posted by: KEV1N
Hmm, on my 04 V6 Accord Coupe, it makes it to VTEC in 3rd when you apply full throttle.

Mmm, '04 v6 coupe Very nice cars imho... Quite fast as well! But they have a much different trans. than the four-door version, which allows it a mid 14 second quarter mile. I was planning on either getting an '04 v6 coupe or a '91-'94 acura nsx. What's your opinion on how the '04 drives? (I haven't had a chance to ride in one)

 

[PeeluckyDuckee]

With an auto, can you affect when the tranny actually changes gear by how light or heavy footed you're on the gas pedal?

Is it designed to recognise that by applying full throttle the driver actually needs the pickup and thus shifts at a later point than casual driving?

 

[Viperoni]

Originally posted by: PeeluckyDuckee
With an auto, can you affect when the tranny actually changes gear by how light or heavy footed you're on the gas pedal?

Is it designed to recognise that by applying full throttle the driver actually needs the pickup and thus shifts at a later point than casual driving?

Yes and yes, pluckster

 

[AntaresVI]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: NokiaDude
Have you ever driven a 3.5L 2004 Honda Odyssey? With the VTEC they're a BLAST to drive!! Put the pedal to the metal and the engine absolutely ROARS as it zips by 4.5k RPMs and almost redlines! Instant 245HP when VTEC engages! It's amazing for a minivan, you have to test drive a friend's!!! That's why I love our Odyssey, its THE 'muscle car" of minivans.

I concur. Driving the "family minivan" isn't a bad thing when you can effortlessly hose the majority of ricers on the road with a full carload.

- M4H

True true. I find it to be rather ironic that my family's '04 Odyssey is almost faster than dad's BMW.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: PeeluckyDuckee
With an auto, can you affect when the tranny actually changes gear by how light or heavy footed you're on the gas pedal?

Is it designed to recognise that by applying full throttle the driver actually needs the pickup and thus shifts at a later point than casual driving?

Theoretically, but most people who design transmissions are morons and don't have the transmission change shift point.

 

[geno]

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: geno

Not to mention that there's no such thing as a manual Lightning (well, stock from Ford anyways)

I was explaining why Ford made their choice they did

Yeah I wasn't aiming that at you, more towards the original poster of "I can't believe someone would buy an auto lighting"

makes me want to bang my head agasint a wall

 

[StageLeft]

My question is what's the point of an automatic, unless you've given up on life