What is the deal with Muslims?

[retrospooty]

no harm on anyone to commit suicide in a effort to do something the well armed forces of the west can't do.

Who said anything about arms or fighting? It's a matter that the MC has to deal with rather than turning a blind eye to, period. Outsiders cant fix this problem.

 

[retrospooty]

OP, you have created in your mind something that simply doesn't exist in the real world and then take it to task for failure to achieve a goal you have set. There is no single "Muslim Community".

Try not to be too literal. It makes conversation impossible. I think you get what I was saying and I think you get why the people of the rest of the world has a low opinion of Muslims in general.

 

[IronWing]

Try not to be too literal. It makes conversation impossible. I think you get what I was saying and I think you get why the people of the rest of the world has a low opinion of Muslims in general.

No, I really don't. Different Muslim nations will act in ways that suit their own interests, just like non-Muslim nations do. Currently, Saudi Arabia and Qatar believe that it is in their interests to support ISIS. Eventually, the US might see that is in our interest to do something about that.

 

[Jaskalas]

Maybe you should lead by example and show them how to do so.

The West is already a Democratic place with Human Rights.
We ARE leading by example.

The Neocons favor forcing this change on them, which inevitably becomes violent because the building blocks of a civil society just aren't part of their culture or... heritage. From the lesson of Iraq I favor stability over change, even democratic change. Let them sit under (their own) military rule for a few centuries, then maybe that portion of the world can start to integrate and no longer kill you for drinking out of the wrong well.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Who said anything about arms or fighting? It's a matter that the MC has to deal with rather than turning a blind eye to, period. Outsiders cant fix this problem.

So how are these Muslims supposed to rid themselves of these bad characters? Ask them to leave nicely?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The West is already a Democratic place with Human Rights.
We ARE leading by example.

The Neocons favor forcing this change on them, which inevitably becomes violent because the building blocks of a civil society just aren't part of their culture or... heritage. From the lesson of Iraq I favor stability over change, even democratic change. Let them sit under (their own) military rule for a few centuries, then maybe that portion of the world can start to integrate and no longer kill you for drinking out of the wrong well.

So how exactly are unarmed people with no real rights supposed to overturn corrupt well armed governments?

 

[Jaepheth]

A head tax?

I don't think any patriarchal society would a agree to a tax that impacts men twice as much as women.

 

[Jaskalas]

So how exactly are unarmed people with no real rights supposed to overturn corrupt well armed governments?

They're not. Because when they do we witness something genocidal like ISIS.
They need decades, if not centuries, of stability.
Their countries are nothing more than lines in the sand drawn up last century. Military rule is a necessity.

 

[Greenman]

Islam came from a region that is fucked.

I don't honestly care about what Islam's message is (because I don't believe in it, since I don't agree with it - but that doesn't mean it needs to be wiped out or censored), or what a bunch of white guys from the Bible Belt think Islam's message is.

My opinion is to let them be - good, bad, whatever.

However, our greed has us deeply embedded in the Middle East. We want oil. We don't want to be liberators. We don't want to spread democracy. We don't want to spread peace, harmony, stability or any form of equality through out the Middle East.

As such, we've done things that have pissed the Muslims off. Their reaction is not justified. But, it is what it is. There is no turning back - and, no need to apologize frankly.

But, we continue to piss them off, because of greed.

If the Middle East was 'contained' (left as is - I am not talking about putting up walls), they would eventually sort things out and Muslims would direct their anger towards the real enemy; their leadership - government, ruling party AND religion.

Could you imagine what the Middle East would be like if the US and Israel wasn't involved in that region? Their streets would be littered with dead princes, dead dictators and dead Islamic extremists.

Our involvement has done one thing - aside from making a few people very rich - provided the ME' governments, ruling parties and extremist religious leadership a scapegoat.

Where do we go from here?

Get off of oil.

Let's drop all the bullshit about providing freedom as well as this whole 'eco-kook' stigma of getting off of oil and move away from that region.

To answer the OP's question: there isn't anything wrong with the vast majority of Muslims. What is wrong is that we've placed ourselves in a position to sway more and more peaceful Muslims into the extremists side. Each bomb we drop and kill an innocent, we sway 100 to 200 more Muslims to the extremists side.

And, bullshit counter-arguments about how collateral damage is the fault of the terrorists (because they are hiding in hospitals, using human shields, etc.) just adds more fuel to the hate towards as well as proves our indifference.

Now, there is no way in hell we can, or ever will, repair the damage done. But, we can move away from them and never look back. Let them figure it out, because our intentions, attitude and actual actions are just making things far far worse.

Three points.
The US doesn't need ME oil. We buy from other parts of the world and export what we produce.
The ME will never have peace as long as there is one Jew left to hate.
How do you beat an enemy that considers their own deaths as victory?

 

[retrospooty]

I dont have all the answers, but it starts with public outcry. It starts with banding together and no longer accepting this behavior in the name of thier religion and no longer turning a blind eye to it. It takes bravery, not cowardice. It takes leadership. Where are the Muslims turning in terrorists? How is it that the only ones that are caught seem to be caught by the west? Its a serious problem that isn't going away until it becomes important to all Muslims and it just seems like it isn't. You cant possibly deny that.

 

[Jaskalas]

So how exactly are unarmed people with no real rights supposed to overturn corrupt well armed governments?

I'll grant you a bonus though. We can fight that battle on their behalf... economically. Use the UN and world trade to promote human rights. Incentivize woman's rights.

As long as there's a dictator, there's someone to negotiate with. Someone who values their own life. That's a wonderful start over the alternative.

 

[sm625]

It sucks that the majority of Muslims are peaceful and get a bad name by the acts of these extremists and they have to suffer some extreme discrimination because of it... but it is an issue that only the Muslim community can fix.

No one can fix it. These people who watched their parents get killed in a drone strike, or get their heads blown off by some western funded rebel group, or whatever, there is no helping them. They are broken for life. They are an infection. Incurable. The only way to deal with them is to isolate the affected areas. And to stop creating more of them.

 

[retrospooty]

The ME will never have peace as long as there is one Jew left to hate.

The Middle East has bigger issues that that. It has been forcibly taken over by armies and various factions thousands of times since history began - literally since history began. It isnt a Jew/Muslim thing, as the problems precede either religion. We just need to stay the hell out. "But, If we leave Iraq and Afghanistan the nutjobs will take over again " - that is correct, and that is correct if we left 10 years ago, today, 10 years from now , 20 years from now or even 100 years from now. Stay out - there is simply no winning there for us or any outsiders. Let them keep killing each other until they figure it out. Seriously, the place is like a cage full of rabid dogs and we are always poking at it with sticks.

 

[TheSlamma]

My issue is I want equal treatment for everyone, with that being said Christianity states that Atheists will go to a lake of fire and that God and Satan take care of that crap. The followers are told not to cast the first stone and to turn the other cheek. Now that doesn't mean the Dogma that people come up with doesn't lead to witch burning and other BS like that, but that is again a warping of the words by slimebags to get what they want out of it.

The Quran on the other hand in multiple locations directly calls for the death of Infidels and that the worshipers are the tools for that, there is no warped interpretations involved.

So a good Christian who follows the new testament can call out a bad Christian and say live a life like Jesus and allow the atheists to be atheists God will deal with them in his own way. This in no way excuses what plenty of Christians have done and still do to oppress other groups, trust me I have plenty of issues with them to, but here is why they are FAR less worse.

A Good Muslim has to blow off direct orders from the Quran in order to accept Atheists. To follow in Muhammad's footsteps means to be a conqueror as opposed to some hippy that roamed around with a bunch of dudes fighting banks, curing diseases and turning a bland drink into something people could have a good time with.

Bill Maher echoed exactly how I feel about it the other day on Colbert, I'm fine with the people, I don't want to kill them, I want to kill their ideas. Killing of Infidels, subjugation of women, the inability for them to jerk-off.. I think of you got rid of that last one they might be a lot less angry.

 

[Newell Steamer]

Three points.
The US doesn't need ME oil. We buy from other parts of the world and export what we produce.
The ME will never have peace as long as there is one Jew left to hate.
How do you beat an enemy that considers their own deaths as victory?

Then we are involved, because...?

I am not being snarky. I always figured it was a need for resources. Sounds like it is not the case.

On the Jew part - they decided to head in there, let them figure it out.

On the death part - when we GTFO, let them blow themselves up.

I may be too simplistic and admit I am not seeing something or even aware of the actual situation. Nonetheless, we need to get out. There is no dealing with them - Christian, Jew, peaceful Muslim, Kurd or even the fucking Lost Ark - leave them be.

 

[Sonikku]

Can we develop a new, eventually economical fuel source now please? :\

 

[michal1980]

The Middle East has bigger issues that that. It has been forcibly taken over by armies and various factions thousands of times since history began - literally since history began. It isnt a Jew/Muslim thing, as the problems precede either religion. We just need to stay the hell out. "But, If we leave Iraq and Afghanistan the nutjobs will take over again " - that is correct, and that is correct if we left 10 years ago, today, 10 years from now , 20 years from now or even 100 years from now. Stay out - there is simply no winning there for us or any outsiders. Let them keep killing each other until they figure it out. Seriously, the place is like a cage full of rabid dogs and we are always poking at it with sticks.

Isolation now that's a winning plan.

 

[TheSlamma]

I may be too simplistic and admit I am not seeing something or even aware of the actual situation. Nonetheless, we need to get out. There is no dealing with them - Christian, Jew, peaceful Muslim, Kurd or even the fucking Lost Ark - leave them be.

Many times I think simple is the right thing to do. I think many times people add a lot of complication in order to hide a bunch of BS inside of it.. exactly like what we are seeing by being over there.

 

[1prophet]

Maybe you should lead by example and show them how to do so.

I'll lead with these 5 examples

1. Separate religion from state
2. Freedom of speech, including the right to criticize a religion without repercussions, no blasphemy laws.
3. Equal rights for women and gays, including who they can marry and how they can dress.
4. The right to leave the religion and choose another or become atheist without fear of death.
5. Take down the Muslim only signs on the way to Mecca, they are no different than the White only signs during Jim Crow and Apartheid.

 

[retrospooty]

Isolation now that's a winning plan.

Have you ever known anyone that just argues with everyone in their life? They have turmoil everywhere they go. Fighting at work, fighting at home, fighting with family. You know how you treat those people? You don't associate with them, that is how. If I thought for a minute we could fix anything I would be all for it but we simply cannot. Us being over there only makes matters worse for them and for us.

 

[Jaskalas]

Isolation now that's a winning plan.

Stability is a winning plan, and violence is often the opposite of that.

Its best to tread carefully, if we have to tread at all. Invading Iraq? Intervening in Libya? Arming Syrian terrorists? Terrible Neocon policies through and through.

 

[soulcougher73]

I'll lead with these 5 examples

1. Separate religion from state
2. Freedom of speech, including the right to criticize a religion without repercussions, no blasphemy laws.
3. Equal rights for women and gays, including who they can marry and how they can dress.
4. The right to leave the religion and choose another or become atheist without fear of death.
5. Take down the Muslim only signs on the way to Mecca, they are no different than the White only signs during Jim Crow and Apartheid.

Yeah..that'll never happen. Their religion and government are one in the same.

 

[Atreus21]

Have you ever known anyone that just argues with everyone in their life? They have turmoil everywhere they go. Fighting at work, fighting at home, fighting with family. You know how you treat those people? You don't associate with them, that is how. If I thought for a minute we could fix anything I would be all for it but we simply cannot. Us being over there only makes matters worse for them and for us.

I want to agree, but I can't help but wonder how long this argument will last.

We may not want war. What do we do when war wants us?

 

[JEDIYoda]

So you're asking the good/unarmed people who wish no harm on anyone to commit suicide in a effort to do something the well armed forces of the west can't do.

Why should we police Islam.....

 

[MajinCry]

Why should we police Islam.....

Because Islam preaches war, rape, slavery and slaughter, like all the other Abrahamic religions, and is at the tender age where it is at it's strongest. It's as old as Christianity was 700 years ago or so, and we know fully well how pleasant that era was, when Christianity was strong.

Besides, a religion that has a pedophile rapist warlord as their figure head should be done away with, especially when people kill others for just drawing said figure of reverence.