What if there was no God?

[ThinClient]

Lets say you choose not to believe in God. What is your purpose for living?

Experiencing life. Living, learning, loving, bettering humanity in whatever small way I can. Empathizing with my fellow man. Humanism. Trying to build a better world for our kids.

 

[alkemyst]

Experiencing life. Living, learning, loving, bettering humanity in whatever small way I can. Empathizing with my fellow man. Humanism. Trying to build a better world for our kids.

Why are you so angry all the time then?

Heck, you have me as a signature.

That stuff is unhealthy.

I think the life you think you lead is different from the one people see.

It's never too late to change.

 

[Ventanni]

No, my opinions are simply based on the evidence of reality.

There's no evidence that suggests god exists, so it's the most compelling, reasonable, easy, sensible conclusion. That makes it obvious to see that god doesn't exist.

But maybe the answer isn't obvious or I'm wrong, then you make me aware of my mistakes and I'll change my opinion.




So you just randomly enter this topic, think that it's enough to say that god exists, and leave? In any case, my conclusion about god's existence is different than yours. Not because I didn't realize something or didn't answer it for myself.

I hope you realize that we live in the same universe right? So we shouldn't come to different answers, they should not depend on who you are or who answered the question. So you shouldn't think that god exists because you like the idea.

So if you think yo know something about the universe that other people hadn't thought of, you should share it with us instead and explain your position, because else we just have to blindly believe you.

What he's saying is that you know God, but you continue to reject Him regardless because it's not on the terms that you like. And really, gentlemen, that's what this all boils down to, right? We argue endlessly about the evidence of God on these forums, because what we all want is for Him to poof out of thin air in front of us and prove to us on our own terms that He exists.

The reality is, that's not how God works. Heck, that's not even how humans work. I've said this before in other posts too; when Jesus was alive and performing miracles here on this earth, even some of those who witnessed it rejected Him. Why? Because it meant giving their lives to God, and people didn't want to do that. I'll even use the same example I used the last time I posted this. There are people on this earth to this day who deny the Holocaust, yet there are ovens and rail lines in Auschwitz for all to see. The evidence is still there, but people still reject it because it would mean changing a part of them or their belief that they just don't want to give up.

Let's skip to the real things, shall we?

God reveals Himself to all who believe. You cannot possibly fathom just how much God loves you and wants to pour blessings out upon your life. You cannot possibly imagine just how much God wants to stand by your side through troubling times, or hold you in his arms when you feel like you just want to break. Think God can't restore your marriage? But the reality is, you won't experience that unless you come to Him on His terms, not yours. He paid the price for our sins, not us.

Want the physical evidence you're looking for? Accept Jesus into your heart. Don't lip it, do it right. Then watch the change in your life as you allow the Holy Spirit to work in you. In my own case, one of those changes was never having to suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts ever again, and I suffered from that for years.

But anyways, that's what Malak is saying. You know the options. The choice is yours. Fruit or no fruit? Accept God into your life and start seeing the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual changes that occur, or continue arguing the same tired, old philosophical standpoint on an internet forum that, unfortunately, will fizzle out in the end.

Accepting God into my life was the single best decision I ever made. I pray, too, that it's yours as well.

 

[Ventanni]

Most crazy people write something wild before they go on a killing spree. God does not care if you choose not to believe in him. God only helps people that believe in him. This does not mean the God will not offer his gifts to all men. Men just choose to separate themselves from the presence of God. God gave all men the freedom of choice.

Lets say you choose not to believe in God. What is your purpose for living?

I'm a devout believer. I do not, and will not ever deny that. Yet even I'm scratching my head on this one.

 

[alzan]

What he's saying is that you know God, but you continue to reject Him regardless because it's not on the terms that you like. And really, gentlemen, that's what this all boils down to, right? We argue endlessly about the evidence of God on these forums, because what we all want is for Him to poof out of thin air in front of us and prove to us on our own terms that He exists.

The reality is, that's not how God works. Heck, that's not even how humans work. I've said this before in other posts too; when Jesus was alive and performing miracles here on this earth, even some of those who witnessed it rejected Him. Why? Because it meant giving their lives to God, and people didn't want to do that. I'll even use the same example I used the last time I posted this. There are people on this earth to this day who deny the Holocaust, yet there are ovens and rail lines in Auschwitz for all to see. The evidence is still there, but people still reject it because it would mean changing a part of them or their belief that they just don't want to give up.

Let's skip to the real things, shall we?

God reveals Himself to all who believe. You cannot possibly fathom just how much God loves you and wants to pour blessings out upon your life. You cannot possibly imagine just how much God wants to stand by your side through troubling times, or hold you in his arms when you feel like you just want to break. Think God can't restore your marriage? But the reality is, you won't experience that unless you come to Him on His terms, not yours. He paid the price for our sins, not us.

Want the physical evidence you're looking for? Accept Jesus into your heart. Don't lip it, do it right. Then watch the change in your life as you allow the Holy Spirit to work in you. In my own case, one of those changes was never having to suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts ever again, and I suffered from that for years.

But anyways, that's what Malak is saying. You know the options. The choice is yours. Fruit or no fruit? Accept God into your life and start seeing the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual changes that occur, or continue arguing the same tired, old philosophical standpoint on an internet forum that, unfortunately, will fizzle out in the end.

Accepting God into my life was the single best decision I ever made. I pray, too, that it's yours as well.

Speaking only for myself I wish you wouldn't use such derogatory terms.

No one ever said G-d, religion and/or spirituality weren't great coping mechanisms. So is the power of positive thinking. If believing in G-d is what gives you the warm fuzzies at night great, glad to hear it.

Unfortunately for you and other believers people have been questioning G-d(s) existence for only slightly less longer than the concept of G-d(s) was proposed.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

What if there was no such thing as Justice?

 

[OverVolt]

There would still be a creator, even if it was something abstract like we're the result of imperfection.

 

[sandorski]

What he's saying is that you know God, but you continue to reject Him regardless because it's not on the terms that you like. And really, gentlemen, that's what this all boils down to, right? We argue endlessly about the evidence of God on these forums, because what we all want is for Him to poof out of thin air in front of us and prove to us on our own terms that He exists.

The reality is, that's not how God works. Heck, that's not even how humans work. I've said this before in other posts too; when Jesus was alive and performing miracles here on this earth, even some of those who witnessed it rejected Him. Why? Because it meant giving their lives to God, and people didn't want to do that. I'll even use the same example I used the last time I posted this. There are people on this earth to this day who deny the Holocaust, yet there are ovens and rail lines in Auschwitz for all to see. The evidence is still there, but people still reject it because it would mean changing a part of them or their belief that they just don't want to give up.

Let's skip to the real things, shall we?

God reveals Himself to all who believe. You cannot possibly fathom just how much God loves you and wants to pour blessings out upon your life. You cannot possibly imagine just how much God wants to stand by your side through troubling times, or hold you in his arms when you feel like you just want to break. Think God can't restore your marriage? But the reality is, you won't experience that unless you come to Him on His terms, not yours. He paid the price for our sins, not us.

Want the physical evidence you're looking for? Accept Jesus into your heart. Don't lip it, do it right. Then watch the change in your life as you allow the Holy Spirit to work in you. In my own case, one of those changes was never having to suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts ever again, and I suffered from that for years.

But anyways, that's what Malak is saying. You know the options. The choice is yours. Fruit or no fruit? Accept God into your life and start seeing the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual changes that occur, or continue arguing the same tired, old philosophical standpoint on an internet forum that, unfortunately, will fizzle out in the end.

Accepting God into my life was the single best decision I ever made. I pray, too, that it's yours as well.

Replace God with Ferries, Aliens, Spirit Guides, or any other supernatural belief and that sentence is still "true". The problem with that kind of Belief is that it is exactly the opposite way of ascertaining what is true or real. It presupposes the truth of the Belief, then it looks for confirmation.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

it is exactly the opposite way of ascertaining what is true or real

Is there true or real good or evil?

If yes, then from where does it come?

If not, then why should we care about following outside of that which confers personal benefit?

It does't require a God figure to believe in real-evil; but it does require belief in something greater in the human condition: the sort of thing which, as far as I can tell, does not lend itself to the kind of proof that you require for God.

I'm happy to hear a thoughtful counter point to this though, I'm open minded.

 

[sandorski]

Is there true or real good or evil?

If yes, then from where does it come?

If not, then why should we care about following outside of that which confers personal benefit?

It does't require a God figure to believe in real-evil; but it does require belief in something greater in the human condition: the sort of thing which, as far as I can tell, does not lend itself to the kind of proof that you require for God.

I'm happy to hear a thoughtful counter point to this though, I'm open minded.

Good/Evil comes from Humans. It is a value judgement of a Persons Actions.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Good/Evil comes from Humans. It is a value judgement of a Persons Actions.

So why should we care about our Personal Actions outside of other's value judgments?

 

[sandorski]

So why should we care about our Personal Actions outside of other's value judgments?

..because others will constrain you or fuck you up if you don't.

 

[Retro Rob]

We argue endlessly about the evidence of God on these forums, because what we all want is for Him to poof out of thin air in front of us and prove to us on our own terms that He exists.

The reality is, that's not how God works. Heck, that's not even how humans work. I've said this before in other posts too; when Jesus was alive and performing miracles here on this earth, even some of those who witnessed it rejected Him. Why? Because it meant giving their lives to God, and people didn't want to do that.

Boy, you hit the nail on the head. This has never really been about "evidence" -- it's more about authority. People generally want to be their own "authority", and the reason why they make unreasonable requests (I heard one atheist say he'll believe once God spells his name out in the stars) is because they know that it won't happen, so they can take mental comfort in knowing they'd never get their own personal proof of God.

Evidence is only a cover for the real issue at stake: accountability, and authority.

This is why evolution is such a requirement for atheists. Believing we're products of a magical mud-puddle means we have no creator, and if we have no creator, we have no ultimate authority, and if there's no ultimate authority, there's no one to be accountable to other than yourself.

That's a non-believers fantasy.

Good post!

 

[sandorski]

Boy, you hit the nail on the head. This has never really been about "evidence" -- it's more about authority. People generally want to be their own "authority", and the reason why they make unreasonable requests (I heard one atheist say he'll believe once God spells his name out in the stars) is because they know that it won't happen, so they can take mental comfort in knowing they'd never get their own personal proof of God.

Evidence is only a cover for the real issue at stake: accountability, and authority.

This is why evolution is such a requirement for atheists. Believing we're products of a magical mud-puddle means we have no creator, and if we have no creator, we have no ultimate authority, and if there's no ultimate authority, there's no one to be accountable to other than yourself.

That's a non-believers fantasy.

Good post!

Ridiculous.

 

[IronWing]

This is why evolution is such a requirement for atheists. Believing we're products of a magical mud-puddle means we have no creator, and if we have no creator, we have no ultimate authority, and if there's no ultimate authority, there's no one to be accountable to other than yourself.
Good post!

Sounds like you have issues with personal responsibility and self control if you feel a need to seek out or simply make up authority figures. You're a free person, act like it.

In't this fun?

 

[Retro Rob]

Sounds like you have issues with personal responsibility and self control if you feel a need to seek out or simply make up authority figures. You're a free person, act like it.

In't this fun?

Authority is actually needed in this world, or we'd be in total chaos...no one is totally free...not even you. Absolute freedom is a nightmare for everyone when you think about it.

You're subject to the laws of the land in which you reside because humans in general aren't necessarily personally responsible. We need cops, regulations, speed limits, oversight etc, for this very reason.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

..because others will constrain you or fuck you up if you don't.

Fair answer, thinking about that then: Why would anyone undertake self-sacrificing behavior, particularly secret self-sacrificing behavior?

 

[IronWing]

Authority is actually needed in this world, or we'd be in total chaos...no one is totally free...not even you. Absolute freedom is a nightmare for everyone when you think about it.

You're subject to the laws of the land in which you reside because humans in general aren't necessarily personally responsible. We need cops, regulations, speed limits, oversight etc, for this very reason.

Laws and law enforcement mechanisms are acknowledged to be human-created. Where is the need for an ultimate non-human authority? While you're at it, you might as well define "ultimate" in the context you used the term so we know what we are discussing.

 

[sandorski]

Fair answer, thinking about that then: Why would anyone undertake self-sacrificing behavior, particularly secret self-sacrificing behavior?

It Feels good and by doing so, there's an increased likelihood that it would be reciprocated by that person.

 

[alzan]

Boy, you hit the nail on the head. This has never really been about "evidence" -- it's more about authority. People generally want to be their own "authority", and the reason why they make unreasonable requests (I heard one atheist say he'll believe once God spells his name out in the stars) is because they know that it won't happen, so they can take mental comfort in knowing they'd never get their own personal proof of God.

Evidence is only a cover for the real issue at stake: accountability, and authority.

This is why evolution is such a requirement for atheists. Believing we're products of a magical mud-puddle means we have no creator, and if we have no creator, we have no ultimate authority, and if there's no ultimate authority, there's no one to be accountable to other than yourself.

That's a non-believers fantasy.

Good post!

Sigh. It's always been about evidence; accountability and authority are nice additions but ultimately unnecessary.

A strange statement for a theist to make. If you don't think an event like that can happen then what is your basis for believing that the account of creation as given in Genesis is true and/or actually happened?

Evolution is a requirement? For what?

We are accountable to ourselves and to the society in which we live.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

It Feels good and by doing so, there's an increased likelihood that it would be reciprocated by that person.

Ok. Most of my evolutionary psychologist friends (and Steven Pinker etc.) are absolutely against the concept of 'group selection'; but I too think they may be wrong.

But if there is group selection, and belief in a 'third party' that sees the good you do even when none else does, doesn't the concept of God offer some sort of evolutionary advantage when encouraging people to follow tribal cleanliness rituals?

 

[sandorski]

Ok. Most of my evolutionary psychologist friends (and Steven Pinker etc.) are absolutely against the concept of 'group selection'; but I too think they may be wrong.

But if there is group selection, and belief in a 'third party' that sees the good you do even when none else does, doesn't the concept of God offer some sort of evolutionary advantage when encouraging people to follow tribal cleanliness rituals?

The concept of god? I doubt that it would be that specific concept, even if there was an Evolutionary advantage to it. I say this mostly because not only has that concept been used in a wide variety of ways, but other similar concepts don't include gods.

More specifically, it would seem that a willingness to learn and to trust your elders are an Evolutionary advantage. Especially for Children.

 

[witeken]

What he's saying is that you know God, but you continue to reject Him regardless because it's not on the terms that you like. And really, gentlemen, that's what this all boils down to, right? We argue endlessly about the evidence of God on these forums, because what we all want is for Him to poof out of thin air in front of us and prove to us on our own terms that He exists.

No, I do not know God, just like I do not know Russell's Teapot or leprechauns. They are concepts invented by people, just like most things you see in games, for example. People are great at inventing concepts. It's this sorta creative, abstract (intelligent) way of thinking that kept people alive and made them able to do all sorts of innovative things; unfortunately also less productive things.

But we must not let us get fooled by the things we come up with. So instead of investigating (the plausibility of) every single thing any human every comes up with, science ignores all those things and separates itself from it and has created an objective model based on the evidence and experiments of reality. Ideas are very helpful, but they have to serve a scientific purpose before you can run away with your idea and claims it is truth.

If your idea does not meet the standards of science, certainly if it doesn't in even the slightest sense, it is simply false.

The reality is, that's not how God works. Heck, that's not even how humans work. I've said this before in other posts too; when Jesus was alive and performing miracles here on this earth, even some of those who witnessed it rejected Him. Why? Because it meant giving their lives to God, and people didn't want to do that. I'll even use the same example I used the last time I posted this. There are people on this earth to this day who deny the Holocaust, yet there are ovens and rail lines in Auschwitz for all to see. The evidence is still there, but people still reject it because it would mean changing a part of them or their belief that they just don't want to give up.

Let's skip to the real things, shall we?

The reason that people reject the evidence of reality is because they are locked in that way of thinking, maybe through indoctrination or so. I am not in any way indoctrinated to reject God's existence. I am curious and I'd simply like to know the truth, so if God really existed, I wouldn't hesitate to change my opinion.

It's actually a bit sad that you compare atheists with Holocaust deniers.

You see this also with creationists. Evolution is a plain scientific fact. You can't argue with it. There is a massive amount of evidence. I suggest you watch Dawkins' quite famous interview with that female creationist if you haven't done so already. She's been to museums. She knows the evidence for it. Something went wrong in her brain so that she simply refuses to accept the truth and ignore the facts presented. She completely deludes herself because of your Holy ridiculous Bible.

The fact that you believe in god and think is real means nothing. In psychology, this might be described as hallucination.

If Jesus really performed magical mystical miracles, you can be assured that the whole world would be talking and writing about all awesome things that he did. But the only place where you can read the story of Jesus, is in the bible. In that regard, Jesus is just as imaginary as leprechauns.

So indeed, people don't want to give up their beliefs, which is insane considering that implies that people think they themselves are omniscient. But in reality, all so called reasons why you're so sure god exists, are a bunch of firing neurons. Those neurons create your illusions. Everything you see, feel and experience is an illusion. It does not exists, it was simply created in your brain so you'd behave according to how evolution forces organisms to behave. So...

God reveals Himself to all who believe. You cannot possibly fathom just how much God loves you and wants to pour blessings out upon your life. You cannot possibly imagine just how much God wants to stand by your side through troubling times, or hold you in his arms when you feel like you just want to break. Think God can't restore your marriage? But the reality is, you won't experience that unless you come to Him on His terms, not yours. He paid the price for our sins, not us.

Experiences of god are just as illusionary and fake as the colors you see, the sounds you hear, the pain and pleasure you feel and the emotions you experience. The only things that are real are the atoms making up this biological computer. So it's really obvious that you only experience Jesus when you've accepted him. Of course you do. It would only be worth talking about if it wasn't. The delusion from the conscious person's view is real, though; you must not let the illusionary thoughts deceive you.

Want the physical evidence you're looking for? Accept Jesus into your heart. Don't lip it, do it right. Then watch the change in your life as you allow the Holy Spirit to work in you. In my own case, one of those changes was never having to suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts ever again, and I suffered from that for years.

That isn't physical evidence. If anything, it's only evidence of psychological confirmation bias. Thanks for further confirming well tested theories.

But anyways, that's what Malak is saying. You know the options. The choice is yours. Fruit or no fruit? Accept God into your life and start seeing the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual changes that occur, or continue arguing the same tired, old philosophical standpoint on an internet forum that, unfortunately, will fizzle out in the end.

Accepting God into my life was the single best decision I ever made. I pray, too, that it's yours as well.

Great! You found an illusion to make your life better, apparently. Thanks for yet again confirming that religion and self-delusion is a natural phenomenon that does not need any other explanations except for the real one.

I, in my case, choose not to delude myself with nonexistent imaginations, whether I invented those fantasies or someone else's neurons did.

 

[Retro Rob]

Where is the need for an ultimate non-human authority?

I don't recall saying there was a "need" for it, however, what we refuse to take from God, we make up ourselves and simply live under an "alternative" authority...but we still need authority.

It only boils down to which one you choose to adhere to, there's no way around it.

It can be likened to buying a car. Sure, I don't need a car from manufacturer X -- I can buy from Y. Still doesn't eliminate the need for a car.

Pick one. That's all we're doing here.

 

[Retro Rob]

Sigh. It's always been about evidence; accountability and authority are nice additions but ultimately unnecessary.

Not really. Simply because evolution is a philosphical doctrine that shapes how we view ourselves and our place in the cosoms, so its more than just a scientfic theory.

Like I said, if we evolved from magical soup, our outlook is different from what it would be if we are made in God's image. God gives humanity an ultimate goal (thus accoutablity), whereas evolution has no goal (no accoutability) -- these are directly opposed to one another.