What if there was no God?

[Retro Rob]

Incorrect. I don't blame a god for anything. I criticize the claims of gods which are in clear contradiction to the totality of the claims. There is no Objective Morality within Christianity, there is no god of Righteousness or Holiness in this god, there is no coherent idea behind this god.

Well you're entitled to your opinion but I didn't know what being unselfish meant until I started following the life of Jesus. I can relate to Brantly. Jesus showed me how to overcome racial and nationalistic barriers. He helped Gentiles Samaritans...people that Jews held in contempt. He ignored race and saw all of us as the same.

Because if him, I learned that there was no race but the human race, thanks to God and Jesus, I've become a changed man.

This was the best choice I've made. I now have a real purpose, and because of Jesus, a positive and great outlook on life.

Righteousness permeates God.

 

[sandorski]

Well you're entitled to your opinion but I didn't know what being unselfish meant until I started following the life of Jesus. I can relate to Brantly. Jesus showed me how to overcome racial and nationalistic barriers. He helped Gentiles Samaritans...people that Jews held in contempt. He ignored race and saw all of us as the same.

Because if him, I learned that there was no race but the human race, thanks to God and Jesus, I've become a changed man.

This was the best choice I've made. I now have a real purpose, and because of Jesus, a positive and great outlook on life.

Righteousness permeates God.

You can't even show that this god exists.

 

[Retro Rob]

You can't even show that this god exists.

No one can. In the Bible, God as always shown his won existence at his own will.

When the time is right, he'll do it himself and he always has.

 

[soulcougher73]

No one can. In the Bible, God as always shown his won existence at his own will.

When the time is right, he'll do it himself and he always has.

This sounds like something you would say about a crazy person when they say "I only hear the voices in my head that tell me to kill when they decide to talk to me"

 

[ThinClient]

Well you're entitled to your opinion but I didn't know what being unselfish meant until I started following the life of Jesus. I can relate to Brantly. Jesus showed me how to overcome racial and nationalistic barriers. He helped Gentiles Samaritans...people that Jews held in contempt. He ignored race and saw all of us as the same.

Because if him, I learned that there was no race but the human race, thanks to God and Jesus, I've become a changed man.

This was the best choice I've made. I now have a real purpose, and because of Jesus, a positive and great outlook on life.

Righteousness permeates God.

You needed religion to figure this out?

That's like people saying that, without religion, they wouldn't know that murder and rape and theft is wrong.

 

[ThinClient]

No one can. In the Bible, God as always shown his won existence at his own will.

When the time is right, he'll do it himself and he always has.

So god is capricious in that he lets men hate and kill each other when he could just end all of the conflict by showing up and proving that he exists?

God is a little boy with a magnifying glass hovering over an ant hill for entertainment?

Boy, am I glad! I can't wait to worship this kind of god!

 

[Retro Rob]

You needed religion to figure this out?

That's like people saying that, without religion, they wouldn't know that murder and rape and theft is wrong.

Need? In the sense we need good leadership in this world, yes, and he's the best (Jesus).

In democracies, we vote for good leaders, because we recognize that we need them. I simply look to the best example of good leadership and outstanding qualities in Jesus to model myself after the best way I can.

 

[moonbogg]

You said a lot of words to really say nothing at all.

And? That's the best any of us can honestly do when trying to talk about "God". Never mind if God didn't exist. This thread shouldn't exist because no one has any truth to speak of regarding God. Its the same old fighting and back and forth leading nowhere.

The bolded part, everyone agrees with, but then your argument falls off the rails. Peoples claims about gods are not that vague, but are very specifically about Conscious Beings similar to our selves, but far beyond our capability.

Everyone doesn't agree with it. Some people are so skeptical, that they claim they can't even know anything at all. They get lost in philosophical nonsense.
I think its a start to admit that an answer exists. There is a truthful answer to the question of origins. Some skeptics are so lost in skepticism that they aren't willing to even go that far. Everything is a non starter for them.
About people's claims regarding a specific kind of god, well good for them. I am saying that many people believe in a different ultimate origin, and they are probably all wrong in the description and details of that origin, but they are all perfectly correct with regard to an ultimate origin existing. They call it God, and some days so do I.

 

[alzan]

Need? In the sense we need good leadership in this world, yes, and he's the best (Jesus).

In democracies, we vote for good leaders, because we recognize that we need them. I simply look to the best example of good leadership and outstanding qualities in Jesus to model myself after the best way I can.

Subjective; to Christians Jesus is the best example, to Muslims it's Mohammed, to Buddhists it's the teachings of Buddha, etc.

Nothing wrong with a role model, religious or otherwise, or leading an ethical life.

 

[Retro Rob]

Subjective; to Christians Jesus is the best example, to Muslims it's Mohammed, to Buddhists it's the teachings of Buddha, etc.

Nothing wrong with a role model, religious or otherwise, or leading an ethical life.

Yep, and we probably can find things they have in common as well to draw off of.

:thumbsup:

 

[witeken]

Animals don't think they're special, yet they can reproduce.

Animals don't think at all. People probably don't explicitly think they're special or so, but my point is that they value their own life. Thinking that you're insignificant in this potentially infinite universe isn't beneficial for your chance of reproduction. Life has to be worth living, so people have some sort of bias towards their own (species).

Are you saying that energy is a direct result of good tasting food? What happened to the nutritious value?

If you didn't eat, you'd die. Nature simply rewards you for eating.

I wonder why you're assigning evolution intelligent, cognitive qualities like being able to think and obviously prophesy, unless you're trying to indirectly validate the existence of a god.

What you're describing is a god, just under a different name.

Evolution is a dumb process, but it works because inferior organisms die before they can spread their inferior genes. So nature doesn't say or do anything intelligent, but we can ask the question and answer it with the unconscious reason why certain animal(s) (genes) got selected instead of others. Reasons without reasoner. It doesn't matter how you formulate those reasons, you should have understood that it was simply another way of explaining this.

God has nothing to do with this, he doesn't understand and certainly had nothing to do with how species evolved, eventually into humans.

 

[soulcougher73]

Yep, and we probably can find things they have in common as well to draw off of.

:thumbsup:

Except that pesky little part of them all going to hell for worshipping false gods etc. bit. But yeah, other than that

 

[ThinClient]

Need? In the sense we need good leadership in this world, yes, and he's the best (Jesus).

In democracies, we vote for good leaders, because we recognize that we need them. I simply look to the best example of good leadership and outstanding qualities in Jesus to model myself after the best way I can.

I don't need a good leader. I certainly don't need Jesus, a make-believe man-made construct.

How can your so-called leader Jesus be a good leader when he isn't even around to lead and when the evolution of modern society has decided that slavery and the subjugation of women is wrong when this so-called Jesus didn't rebuke slavery -but endorsed it?

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

How about Jesus condoning the beating of slaves even if they haven't done anything wrong?

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Yeah, your so-called savior is one hell of a leader!

 

[Retro Rob]

How can your so-called leader Jesus be a good leader when he isn't even around to lead and when the evolution of modern society has decided that slavery and the subjugation of women is wrong when this so-called Jesus didn't rebuke slavery -but endorsed it?

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

This is simple. He wasn't condoning slavery, but, regulating it because slavery was a societal norm, and Jesus wasn't a social reformer...that was clear. His reform is yet future.

For example, if there is man in prison and it simply isn't time for him to be freed, you can give him ways to conduct himself until his day comes to be freed. That doesn't indicate you're complicit with putting people behind bars, it simply means you're giving him rules of conduct while he's there.

This is what Jesus was doing.

How about Jesus condoning the beating of slaves even if they haven't done anything wrong?

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

This passage said "punished", not "beat" anyway. I think you should re-read it. Refusing to do your job is doing wrong. Ask your boss.

Secondly, wrong is wrong regardless if you are aware of it or not. Our own laws jail people for breaking the law, even if they are unaware of it.

Nothing wrong with that.

If you want to keep cherry-picking bible text, go ahead and knock yourself out, by yourself.

 

[ThinClient]

This is simple. He wasn't condoning slavery, but, regulating it because slavery was a societal norm, and Jesus wasn't a social reformer...that was clear. His reform is yet future.

Right, right.... right.

...are you even listening to yourself? Jesus didn't think slavery was wrong. He condoned it. He wasn't a social reformer? Of course he was. The way he treated and preached against the pharisees and their actions was social reformist action. Hell, he overturned tables in the temple, upsetting the social norm because it was WRONG but he didn't condemn slavery for being wrong.

So then, since Jesus WAS (supposedly, of course) a social reformer, then why didn't he know what we know now, that slavery was wrong?

Is it because we, modern humans, are more morally and ethically righteous than Jesus was?

For example, if there is man in prison and it simply isn't time for him to be freed, you can give him ways to conduct himself until his day comes to be freed. That doesn't indicate you're complicit with putting people behind bars, it simply means you're giving him rules of conduct while he's there.

This is what Jesus was doing.

Men go to prison because they've broken the law. Men didn't become slaves because they broke the law.

What you're doing here is saying that slaves were getting what they deserve -receiving repercussions for their actions.

And you have the cojones to call yourself morally or ethically righteous? How dare, you. How disgraceful!

This passage said "punished", not "beat" anyway. I think you should re-read it. Refusing to do your job is doing wrong. Ask your boss.

A job insinuates that you're being compensated for willingly working for someone else.

Are you really trying to insinuate that slaves are willingly working for someone else for nothing but claiming that it's some kind of job and that their punishment for not doing a job that they don't want to do for no compensation is deserving of punishment?

And you have the cojones to call yourself morally or ethically righteous? How dare, you. How disgraceful!

Secondly, wrong is wrong regardless if you are aware of it or not. Our own laws jail people for breaking the law, even if they are unaware of it.

Nothing wrong with that.

If you want to keep cherry-picking bible text, go ahead and knock yourself out, by yourself.

Right and wrong are subjective. There is no objective right or wrong. There maybe collectively subjective right and wrongs, but there is no such thing as objective morality.

In the bible, the wages of sin is death. DEATH. The Old Testament, the same god in the New Testament, features genocide and slavery and the subjugation or ownership of women as a morally and ethically right action simply because god is responsible for committing the act.

Are you saying that we, modern human beings, are more morally and ethically righteous because we now know that such actions are collectively subjectively wrong?

And you have the cojones to call yourself morally or ethically righteous? How dare, you. How disgraceful!

...are you seeing a pattern here?

 

[Retro Rob]

Except that pesky little part of them all going to hell for worshipping false gods etc. bit. But yeah, other than that

Never personally believe in Hell, particularly since words like "Sheol" and "hades" mean the exact same thing (abode of the dead, making no moral distinction).

If hell was real, then God would be keeping Satan in business by sending him "souls" to burn - that would make them partners, not enemies.

 

[ThinClient]

Never personally believe in Hell, particularly since words like "Sheol" and "hades" mean the exact same thing (abode of the dead, making no moral distinction).

If hell was real, then God would be keeping Satan in business by sending him "souls" to burn - that would make them partners, not enemies.

God didn't seem to have any problem killing infants and children in the multiple mass genocides committed in the Old Testament, so why do you reject the idea that god isn't opposed to creating souls to burn?

 

[alzan]

Never personally believe in Hell, particularly since words like "Sheol" and "hades" mean the exact same thing (abode of the dead, making no moral distinction).

If hell was real, then God would be keeping Satan in business by sending him "souls" to burn - that would make them partners, not enemies.

If G-d created the universe and all within it, then G-d created Satan; they'd be competitors or partners for souls.

There's no need for a metaphysical destination of hell, we create our own "hells" for ourselves and unfortunately our fellow humans.

 

[Retro Rob]

There's no need for a metaphysical destination of hell, we create our own "hells" for ourselves and unfortunately our fellow humans.

Of course, and that's partly why I don't believe in Hell, in conjuction with the Biblical Hebrew and Greek words that don't denote a place of torument.

 

[alzan]

Of course, and that's partly why I don't believe in Hell, in conjuction with the Biblical Hebrew and Greek words that don't denote a place of torument.

Only partly?

 

[disappoint]

You needed religion to figure this out?

That's like people saying that, without religion, they wouldn't know that murder and rape and theft is wrong.

What kind of man would say such a thing?

Surely it couldn't be someone trolling. Trolls usually try to get the better of their prey, or post inflammatory statements to garner attention, for they desire any attention over none, even negative attention.

No troll desires to paint themselves as a madman. Such a statement would surely serve no purpose but make one eligible for the loony asylum.

 

[disappoint]

In the bible, the wages of sin is death. DEATH. The Old Testament, the same god in the New Testament, features genocide and slavery and the subjugation or ownership of women as a morally and ethically right action simply because god is responsible for committing the act.

It was a different time. A time when it was the norm to not value human life much more than pond scum.

Verily I say unto thee:
Any modern man whom derives his knowledge from texts thousands of years old, when man's understanding of nature was so primitive as to lack what we today would call basic human rights,

Any modern man who would point his moral compass at ancient texts written by those who's words betray their penchant for the destruction of humanity and revel in stories of such in texts they deem sacred,

Any modern man who would turn their back on science, and reason, especially in a conscious effort to halt progress,

Any modern man that would make an argument for this after witnessing the beheading of his fellow countrymen by religious text worshiping primitive acting men today,

This hypothetical modern man would be truly worthy of the title pond scum.

Yet I would not call for his death.
I would not sanction the end of his existence.
I would still hold out hope that he may change his mind
For I am not so primitive,
I am not so destructive,
I am not so easily swayed to ignorance only to wallow in it.
I am capable of learning from my mistakes,
and admitting, at the very least to myself, where I have been wrong.
And I would lead such a hypothetical man by example
to the best of my ability,
in the hopes he may take a drink
from the oasis of knowledge,
that modern man has attained.

 

[ThinClient]

What kind of man would say such a thing?

Surely it couldn't be someone trolling. Trolls usually try to get the better of their prey, or post inflammatory statements to garner attention, for they desire any attention over none, even negative attention.

No troll desires to paint themselves as a madman. Such a statement would surely serve no purpose but make one eligible for the loony asylum.

I see countless arguments from religious people asking how it's possible to have morals or ethics without religion.

Naturally, the reply that follows is meant to uncover what they are truly insisting, which is that, without religion, they wouldn't know the difference between wrong and right.

It's clearly not a rational argument. It's meant to show that morals and ethics are not born out of religion or spirituality or any sort of god.

 

[ThinClient]

It was a different time. A time when it was the norm to not value human life much more than pond scum.

This is the common cop-out used by religious to help themselves rationalize the difference between then and now. It's simply preposterous. Anyone who truly believes this is incredibly stupid.

 

[alkemyst]

What kind of man would say such a thing?

Surely it couldn't be someone trolling. Trolls usually try to get the better of their prey, or post inflammatory statements to garner attention, for they desire any attention over none, even negative attention.

No troll desires to paint themselves as a madman. Such a statement would surely serve no purpose but make one eligible for the loony asylum.

He doesn't really understand. I think he posts out of Libraries because I can only imagine he is homeless.