What I don't get about the Trayvon Martin case

[GreenMeters]

I have no rational reason to believe Zimmerman is lying. The facts and Zimmerman's account are largely consistent.

Reason is dictating my opinion. Those who somehow "feel" that Z is guilty without any relevant factual basis are being irrational in my opinion.

What facts? That Trayvon and Zimmerman fought? Sure, those are consistent, but that's not the crux of the issue. The issue is whether Zimmerman instigated the confrontation (i.e., Trayvon was the one with the right to "stand his ground"), and whether Zimmerman was actually entitled to feel his life was in danger. Here, the facts are not consistent at all with Zimmerman's account. It does not seem reasonable that Zimmerman would tail someone he thought was armed and acting erratically. It does not seem reasonable that Trayvon would instigate against a larger, armed opponent.

Hopefully the trial can deliver a clear answer, but right now anyone who says there's no reason to disbelieve Zimmerman is the one being irrational, in my opinion.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

What facts? That Trayvon and Zimmerman fought? Sure, those are consistent, but that's not the crux of the issue. The issue is whether Zimmerman instigated the confrontation (i.e., Trayvon was the one with the right to "stand his ground"), and whether Zimmerman was actually entitled to feel his life was in danger. Here, the facts are not consistent at all with Zimmerman's account. It does not seem reasonable that Zimmerman would tail someone he thought was armed and acting erratically. It does not seem reasonable that Trayvon would instigate against a larger, armed opponent.

Hopefully the trail can deliver a clear answer, but right now anyone who says there's no reason to disbelieve Zimmerman is the one being irrational, in my opinion.

I'm confused...what facts did you present that Zimmerman was lying or that his account was inconsistent with the substantial body of evidence? All you've done is speculate without any basis in fact.

Anyway, I doubt the "stand your ground" defense will be decided by trial this June. In my opinion, Z will win his self-defense trial in April.

 

[randomrogue]

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/george-zimmerman-said-fucking-cold-or-fucking-punks

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting

This is going to be so important to the jury. It sounds like Coons. Then it sounds like maybe it's Cold. Zimmerman says he said "punks".

 

[GreenMeters]

I'm confused...what facts did you present that Zimmerman was lying or that his account was inconsistent with the substantial body of evidence? All you've done is speculate without any basis in fact.

Anyway, I doubt the "stand your ground" defense will be decided by trial this June. In my opinion, Z will win his self-defense trial in April.

Do you disagree that it is unreasonable to tail someone you believe is armed and behaving erratically, particularly after the police told you not to?

Do you disagree that it is unreasonable to instigate a fight with someone larger that yourself, and who is armed when you are not?

You keep saying that "the facts" are consistent with Zimmerman's account. Be specific: which facts?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

That, of course, is not what I said.

In fact, I laid out specific facts that i feel justify my opinion. Saying that they aren't conclusive proof doesn't mean they aren't factually based.

You're free to see those facts differently, but you having a different opinion that me doesn't mean I have "no facts to support my opinion".

Specific facts that justify your opinion...nope. Specific "facts" that you "feel" justify your opinion...agree.

To draw a pertinent example, Zimmerman claimed he followed Martin because he "seemed suspicious". What "facts" were that decision based on? Certainly no more than the ones I've used to assess Zimmerman himself.

What does this matter? Zimmerman lives in a neighborhood that's been hit with a rash of burglaries. He's sees someone who he believes is suspicious and follows him to see what he's up to. So what? Is this somehow a crime. You apparently want to try Zimmerman on the basis of your "feeling" he was being racist when making a pure judgement call. Do you actually believe that this is a pertinent example supporting your opinion that Zimmerman is guilty of murder? Really?

And I have to agree that you have not done much to spell out why you think Zimmerman is telling the truth. You say Zimmerman's story is "largely consistent" but haven't addressed significant flaws that others have pointed out.

I've told you why I think Zimmerman is telling the truth...his story is "largely consistent" with the evidence. Please point out these "significant flaws" that are based on reasonable evidence rather than contrived speculation. Let's get specific.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Specific facts that justify your opinion...nope. Specific "facts" that you "feel" justify your opinion...agree.

Sorry, but that's just your opinion about my opinion.

The facts have been laid out here -- Zimmerman's phone call to 9/11, his insistence on continuing to track Martin when the police said they "didn't need him to do that", the difference in their relative sizes, the fact that Zimmerman was armed and Martin was not, and the fact that Zimmerman created this entire event by getting out of his car in the first place.

Add to that the tone of his remarks, inconsistencies in his story, and there are plenty of facts to justify my opinion, as far as I am concerned. You can "feel" differently if you wish.

What does this matter?

It matters because apparently you think it's invalid for me to assess Zimmerman based on far more evidence than Zimmerman himself used to assess Martin.

I've told you why I think Zimmerman is telling the truth...his story is "largely consistent" with the evidence. Please point out these "significant flaws" that are based on reasonable evidence rather than contrived speculation. Let's get specific.

Multiple people have already. It's also been laid out in the media countless times. Even in the post just before mine by Greenman.

You can choose to address them or not, but please don't pretend your position is any more fact-based than those who think Zimmerman's story is suspect. Because it's not. If you want to characterize my suspicion of him as a "feeling", well, you have presented no more than a "feeling" that he is innocent.

 

[randomrogue]

Doc Savage this is a discussion section and so far you've just said everyone else is irrational and that it's normal to follow a kid who you think is armed despite the police telling you not to.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Many facts are actually open to interpretation.

Zimmerman has stated one thing.
People choose to take his words in or out of the context depending on their biases.

One person states that Zimmerman was racist - yet the FBI and others state that there is no evidence of such.

Zimmerman states that he acknowledged the request that they did not need him to follow anymore.
Yet;is that an acknowledge of the request or an indication that he is obeying the communication.
There is the fact that the timeline vs location of such request.

Is the glass half full or half empty.
Facts state that the glass contains only 50% of capacity.

One can look at this from the initial options of 5 different points.

• GZ did no wrong
• GZ was negligent but justified
• Neutral
• TM was negligent and mistakes did him in.
• TM was the cherub that was initially portrayed.

From what every door you enter from will then skew your perception of facts and color opinions.

Even my list can be treated as biased due to the choice of words.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Sorry, but that's just your opinion about my opinion.

The facts have been laid out here -- Zimmerman's phone call to 9/11, his insistence on continuing to track Martin when the police said they "didn't need him to do that", the difference in their relative sizes, the fact that Zimmerman was armed and Martin was not, and the fact that Zimmerman created this entire event by getting out of his car in the first place.

Add to that the tone of his remarks, inconsistencies in his story, and there are plenty of facts to justify my opinion, as far as I am concerned. You can "feel" differently if you wish.

It matters because apparently you think it's invalid for me to assess Zimmerman based on far more evidence than Zimmerman himself used to assess Martin.

Multiple people have already. It's also been laid out in the media countless times. Even in the post just before mine by Greenman.

You can choose to address them or not, but please don't pretend your position is any more fact-based than those who think Zimmerman's story is suspect. Because it's not. If you want to characterize my suspicion of him as a "feeling", well, you have presented no more than a "feeling" that he is innocent.

You said that you thought Zimmerman was lying and point to the following "facts" to support your opinion:

1) His phone call to 9/11
2) His insistence on continuing to track Martin when the police said they "didn't need him to do that"
3) The difference in their relative sizes
4) The fact that Zimmerman was armed and Martin was not
5) The fact that Zimmerman created this entire event by getting out of his car in the first place.

My reponse:

1) What did Zimmerman lie about during his 911 call?
2) What lie did Zimmerman state during this exchange?
3) Why would a 50 lb. difference in size have any bearing on whether Zimmerman was lying or not?
4) Why would Zimmerman being armed have any bearing on whether he was lying or not?
5) Why would Zimmerman getting out of his car have any bearing on whether Zimmerman was lying or not?

You make no sense to me. I've asked several times for you to present specific facts that support your opinion that Zimmerman was lying and this is all you apparently have in response is this?

I see nothing that contradicts Zimmerman's story...the physical evidence supports his story as well as my opinion that's he's telling the truth. So far you've presented no rational evidence supporting your opinion. The 5 points you specificaslly made provide zero basis for forming a rational opinion.

 

[randomrogue]

The FBI is trying to avoid a race riot. They'll play multiple cleaned up recordings of the 911 tapes and the jury will decide.

 

[GreenMeters]

You said that you thought Zimmerman was lying and point to the following "facts" to support your opinion:
1) What did Zimmerman lie about during his 911 call?
2) What lie did Zimmerman state during this exchange?
5) Why would Zimmerman getting out of his car have any bearing on whether Zimmerman was lying or not?

The fact that Zimmerman ignored the police request to disengage casts suspicion on his claim that Trayvon instigated the fight.

3) Why would a 50 lb. difference in size have any bearing on whether Zimmerman was lying or not?

The physical difference casts suspicion on Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon instigated the fight.

4) Why would Zimmerman being armed have any bearing on whether he was lying or not?

The fact that Zimmerman was armed and Trayvon was not casts suspicion on Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon instigated the fight.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The FBI is trying to avoid a race riot. They'll play multiple cleaned up recordings of the 911 tapes and the jury will decide.

That is pure speculation! The FBI will not tamper with the recordings!

 

[randomrogue]

That is pure speculation! The FBI will not tamper with the recordings!

You misunderstand. I mean that experts will clean up the noise in the recordings to make it easier to understand what is being said. I'm not talking about tampering at all.

 

[lotus503]

Ok here are some facts and why I question zimmermans version.

The fight supposedly started at the T.
Zimmerman indicates he was punched in the nose and went down with the blow.

Yet Martin's body and other items of evidence are '15 to as much as '45 feet from the T. Distance is debatable I suspect it will come out to '25 feet.

Zimmerman states Martin was trying to cover his mouth, yet claims it was him screaming which occurred uninterrupted.

Zimmerman states he forgot he had his gun until he thought Martin was going for it.

Zimmerman and his wife were caught speaking in code about donated funds, his wife faces perjury charges, Zimmerman did not state anything related to his finances or he also would be facing charges.

Those are just a few reasons why I think he could be lying or withholding information.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

The fact that Zimmerman ignored the police request to disengage casts suspicion on his claim that Trayvon instigated the fight.

The physical difference casts suspicion on Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon instigated the fight.

The fact that Zimmerman was armed and Trayvon was not casts suspicion on Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon instigated the fight.

I'm beginning to think we should just paint him white for good measure and publically hang him without a trial. /s

 

[randomrogue]

What's going to happen is that each side will present experts that interpret the evidence and then jury will have to decide which one they believe.

1. Distance. I think this one can be done definitively due to the squares being a set distance.

2. What Zimmerman said during the 911 call

3. If it was Zimmerman really screaming for help. I read somewhere that 2 experts were only 40% sure that it was Zimmerman but to be admissible in court and willing to testify they would need to be much more certain.

Nobody is going to believe he forgot he had his gun. That's just going to come across as a blatant lie.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I'm beginning to think we should just paint him white for good measure and publically hang him without a trial. /s

My opinion: This post violates the decorum expected in this forum. This forum has guidelines dissimilar from P&N for good reason.

 

[GreenMeters]

I'm beginning to think we should just paint him white for good measure and publically hang him without a trial. /s
.

Yes, that is a completely valid summary of my position. Thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion forum.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Ok here are some facts and why I question zimmermans version.

The fight supposedly started at the T.
Zimmerman indicates he was punched in the nose and went down with the blow.

Yet Martin's body and other items of evidence are '15 to as much as '45 feet from the T. Distance is debatable I suspect it will come out to '25 feet.

You know...I struggle with criticisms of Z's integrity based on this. Here we have a person in a major fight and getting his head bashed in at one point and we're going to nitpick about a few few from where the fight supposedly started and use this as a basis for bringing Z's credibility into question? I've seen many fights in my time and it's common for a lot of movement to occur during a fight. This proves nothing in my opinion regarding Z's integrity.

Zimmerman states Martin was trying to cover his mouth, yet claims it was him screaming which occurred uninterrupted.

I don't see any contradiction here. We know there was screaming and we have no eye wiinesses that can confirm or invalidate Z's assertion that TM was trying to cover his mouth at some point in the fight. Perhaps TM was trying to keep Z's screaming from being heard? We don't know. This point proves nothing in my opinion regarding Z's integrity.

Zimmerman states he forgot he had his gun until he thought Martin was going for it.

True or not true....we don't know. There is no factual basis for assuming Z was either lying or telling the truth in this regard.

Zimmerman and his wife were caught speaking in code about donated funds, his wife faces perjury charges, Zimmerman did not state anything related to his finances or he also would be facing charges.

Valid point! This definitely casts some suspicion on Z's integrity. Now I have a question....is it reasonable to extrapolate from this to anything else regarding this matter?

Those are just a few reasons why I think he could be lying or withholding information.

Thank you. I appreciate you sharing your reasoning on this.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Yes, that is a completely valid summary of my position. Thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion forum.

Look...I'm expressing my feelings of frustration with the course of discussion with some of those who think Z is a lying racist. If you don't want to discuss...don't. It's that fucking simple.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

My opinion: This post violates the decorum expected in this forum. This forum has guidelines dissimilar from P&N for good reason.

Please be specific.

 

[lotus503]

You know...I struggle with criticisms of Z's integrity based on this. Here we have a person in a major fight and getting his head bashed in at one point and we're going to nitpick about a few few from where the fight supposedly started and use this as a basis for bringing Z's credibility into question? I've seen many fights in my time and it's common for a lot of movement to occur during a fight. This proves nothing in my opinion regarding Z's integrity. It wouldn't be an issue expect Zimmerman states he went down with the punch and the ensuing ground fight occurred, I have been in and witnessed many fights myself and rolling around on the ground while mounted over 15' is suspect.


I don't see any contradiction here. We know there was screaming and we have no eye wiinesses that can confirm or invalidate Z's assertion that TM was trying to cover his mouth at some point in the fight. Perhaps TM was trying to keep Z's screaming from being heard? We don't know. This point proves nothing in my opinion regarding Z's integrity. If TM was covering his mouth there should be some symptom of that in the recorded screams, there isn't. as well as no blood on martin indicating his hands were on Zimmermans bloody head or face.


True or not true....we don't know. There is no factual basis for assuming Z was either lying or telling the truth in this regard.


Valid point! This definitely casts some suspicion on Z's integrity. Now I have a question....is it reasonable to extrapolate from this to anything else regarding this matter?


Thank you. I appreciate you sharing your reasoning on this.

My partial response in bold
So its not that my questioning of the facts and Zimmerman's account proves anything, however I think its reasonable given the above to question his version.

On the one hand you have a guy who probably wouldn't have left his car without a gun to follow a guy he himself labeled as acting suspicious and like he had something in his waistband, on the other he says he forgot he had that same gun that likely gave him the courage to follow to begin with.

Zimmerman's own account conflicts to a degree with some of the evidence in the case, not to the degree of certainty one would need for a murder conviction in my opinion. But definitely warrants a look at and enough to cast doubt on his version.

We have a guy who indicates the person he called the police on stating he was acting odd and may have something in his wasteband, go to length to follow that said person without regard to his own safety, even though he forgot he was armed, he didn't identify himself to martin per his own account when asked why he was following him he conspires with his wife to lie to the court to a degree, sorry but in my opinion something is off here.

 

[GreenMeters]

Look...I'm expressing my feelings of frustration with the course of discussion with some of those who think Z is a lying racist. If you don't want to discuss...don't. It's that fucking simple.

And others are frustrated with your inability to define why you believe Zimmerman's account (and hand-waving it away with generic statements about 'all the evidence' rather that pointing to specific things that corroborate his story, particularly around the issues that other posters have raised, is not an answer), and yet they have continued this discussion without violating the spirit of the new forum. Specifically, they have not put words in other's mouths, as you have by incorrectly stating that my position is that Zimmerman is a racist and should be jailed/executed without a trial.

 

[lotus503]

Please be specific.

I agree, your quoted post doesn't lend to discussion but rather stifles it.

I mean if your frustration is leading to posts that add no discussion value or dropping F Bombs, maybe you should take a breather.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The FBI is trying to avoid a race riot. They'll play multiple cleaned up recordings of the 911 tapes and the jury will decide.

Do you have evidence of such or is this pure speculation.

If evidence ; please post it.

EK
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