What I don't get about the Trayvon Martin case

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
Sorry, I can't agree. Even if you are wearing something that makes you a target, you are still minding your own business.

Zimmerman was not.
Even not agreeing with the analogy how is the safety of your neighborhood not your business? Even if you want to say getting out of your car to see where someone went is going to far it is still, in my mind at least, his business.
I can't comment on that as I haven't investigated it.
The only injuries sustained by Trayvon is on his knuckles and a single gun shot from the coroners report.
That's a valid argument in general. I'm just not sure where Zimmerman was on the line between concerned watchfulness and vigilanteeism.
That's always a fine line, and we all may draw it at different points, personally I draw it at the line of legality, was anything he was doing illegal? From what's available so far, no, which is why he wasn't charged originally.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...Zimmerman-s-Anything-But-Routine-Bail-Hearing


It has taken six full weeks but at last George Zimmerman has been arrested and detained on charges of second degree murder in the killing of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin. Now that he has been arrested, will justice be served?

There were two unexpected surprises in Zimmerman's bail hearing, for the accused killer of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin. It's quite obvious that Zimmerman's lawyer, Mark O'Mara has a specific strategy already in place for defending George Zimmerman against the charge of second degree murder, and the prosecution was caught unaware during the very non-routine hearing.
.



The first surprise came when Zimmerman issued an 'apology' to the Martin family for the 'loss of their son' (phraseology an uninvolved third party might use), allowing him to imbed a sympathetic perception into minds of potential jurymembers and the public at large.

It seems fairly apparent that Zimmerman's lawyer intends to base his case on a claim of self-defense by Zimmerman against the younger, lighter, unarmed but dangerously hoodie-wearing Martin. What hasn't drawn nearly as much attention but in my opinion is probably the more important development, as it hints to O'Mara's strategy, is his questioning of the investigating officer's validity of the arrest.


Apparently expecting a routine hearing about whether the man accused of killing unarmed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin was too dangerous to be released on bond, they quickly discovered the matter was going to be anything but routine.
The first surprise came when the judge allowed defense attorney Mark O’Mara to pepper one of the law enforcement investigators with tough questions about what evidence was used to charge Zimmerman with second-degree murder in the Feb. 26 killing.
The result was that the defense was able to paint the case against Zimmerman as one that was full of holes and also convince the Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. to order him freed on bond as he awaits trial.

“I didn’t know we’d be trying the case,” prosecutor Bernie De La Rionda, apparently exasperated, said during the hearing.

O’Mara did most of his damage on Friday when he was allowed to grill Dale Gilbreath, an investigator for the state attorney’s office.

Gilbreath and another investigator, T.C. O’Steen, were the two people whose names appeared on the bottom of the April 11 sworn affidavit prosecutors used to bring the murder charge.

The affidavit laid out the facts of what authorities believed happened the night of the shooting. The affidavit clearly showed that prosecutors weren’t buying Zimmerman’s story that he shot Martin in self defense.

But as soon as Gilbreath took the stand, he admitted he hadn’t brought any evidence or supporting documents with him to court that morning. He didn’t expect he’d need it.

“I was not planning on testifying,” he said.

The defense attorney spent some of the time focusing on a single sentence from the affidavit, which said: “Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued.”

The attorney wanted to know what evidence Gilbreath had to prove that Zimmerman was the one who initiated the confrontation. The investigator revealed he didn’t have any evidence that hadn’t already been made public. He said relied on two things.
Since when does the prosecution need to provide evidence warranting an arrest, at a bail hearing? Why was the defense attorney allowed to pursue this line of questioning at all? The special prosecutor, appointed after the first one was dismissed, spent many weeks combing through evidence and the resulting arrest itself is the 'evidence'.
The prosecution was not prepared to substantiate the arrest, nor did they have any reason to expect to defend their actions, but were asked to do so and made to seem that the arrest was unjustifed, at the least.

The first judge in the case recused herself on the grounds of a possible conflict of interest, only to be replaced with Judge Kenneth Lester, who seems pre-disposed to grant wide leeway to the defense, judging by his unorthodox granting of permission of this line of questioning, challenging the 'assumption' that Zimmerman initiated the conflict.

As stated, the prosecution clearly was not buying Zimmerman's claim of self-defense, took weeks to come to this conclusion, resulting in Zimmerman's arrest. So the time to question this is long past, but the judge provided the defense with the opportunity to do so and create doubt as to the vailidity of Zimmerman's arrest. This is clearly intended to cast doubt in the minds of potential jurors as well as sway sentiment to Zimmerman with the public.

Given this inauspicious beginning to what has become the de-facto trial, what other straying from normal court procedure will this judge allow in his courtroom? I can foresee many 'objection overruled' instances in this trial. The Sanford police did everything they could to prevent Zimmerman from being arrested in the first place and now it is being made difficult to convict him by judicial authorities.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,404
9,599
136
...
It could be that Zimmerman swung at him first, and missed, and then Martin nailed him. Who knows?

That's the problem with these situations.

"Could be". That's the problem with convicting Zimmerman beyond a reasonable doubt.

...
As a theoretical -- if I come up to you and slap you in the face, and then you punch me in the face in response, am I now justified in shooting you?
If he were to continue beating you, pinned you to the ground? I mean... what do you feel is justified? Ideally you wouldn't be alone and a third party could be brave (stupid) enough to intervene and pull your assailant off of you. Absent that, what can you do? I have to lean towards self defense here, no matter how you achieve it.

The biggest problem is we just don't know how the altercation went down from the beginning. So you're accurate to suggest there are alternative scenarios in which Martin is setup to take the bullet- the problem is we just don't have evidence, and without evidence just what is the law supposed to do - reflect that you should take a beating without self defense? I'm not ready to stand by that.

If "Stand Your Ground" risks abuse, then how do we create a better law that allows self defense without solid evidence?
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
You say that Zimmerman should be assumed innocent by default, which is correct, but you also assume that Trayvon is guilty by default. But Trayvon is the one who won't even get a chance to prove his innocence. Again, that is the problem with stand-your-ground; it creates this paradox of assumed guilt. It's too easy for someone to instigate a fight and murder the target.
Trayvon isn't being charged with anything...if it were so easy to do then we would be seeing this happen a lot, but we aren't. How many people are going to "instigate" a fight by not touching someone and then letting that person beat on them for a while then shoot them? That's taking a mighty big chance that the person beating on you won't be able to take the gun from you or hurt you badly enough that you would be unable to shoot them, only a complete idiot would think that was a good idea.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,404
9,599
136
Trayvon isn't being charged with anything...if it were so easy to do then we would be seeing this happen a lot, but we aren't. How many people are going to "instigate" a fight by not touching someone and then letting that person beat on them for a while then shoot them? That's taking a mighty big chance that the person beating on you won't be able to take the gun from you or hurt you badly enough that you would be unable to shoot them, only a complete idiot would think that was a good idea.

Charles Kozierok posted a reasonable scenario of slap - punch - shoot. Hell, maybe you even roll around on the ground for a moment. You do not necessarily take any significant time or beating prior to taking the shot. It seems to be a valid concern.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
Charles Kozierok posted a reasonable scenario of slap - punch - shoot. Hell, maybe you even roll around on the ground for a moment. You do not necessarily take any significant time or beating prior to taking the shot. It seems to be a valid concern.

Missed his edit...yes that could be a concern, however I would have to go with it's never happened before and it doesn't meet the definitions of self defense in the situation as defined by law when you are the instigator, yes they did actually define it in Florida. If you instigate the fight you have to make reasonable effort to remove yourself from the situation and the person attacking you has to basically not let you and be causing great bodily injury. I can look up the exact wording but that pretty much covers it, the slap-punch-shoot scenario wouldn't meet that definition and the slap would be readily found in a forensic examination.

Actual wording:
Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
LINK
 
Last edited:

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
"Could be". That's the problem with convicting Zimmerman beyond a reasonable doubt.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to comment on Zimmerman's guilt or innocence. He may well be innocent. He may well be guilty, but there's not enough evidence to convict him.

I'm more interested in the larger discussion of the overall issues here.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,774
556
126
No mater how the evidence is revealed there is no evidence Zimmerman started the fight, prosecution has admitted such openly, and the lack of any physical evidence that Zimmerman even grabbed his sleeve. Without any evidence it should never go to trial, that isn't the way our justice system is supposed to work.

George Zimmerman got out of the car. Someone is dead after a confrontation. That dead person have provided evidence in the form of testimony. It's going to trial.

Simple enough. If George Zimmerman is acquitted then he's acquitted.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
George Zimmerman got out of the car. Someone is dead after a confrontation. That dead person have provided evidence in the form of testimony. It's going to trial.

Simple enough. If George Zimmerman is acquitted then he's acquitted.
Could you explain the bolded, not sure what you mean by that...and whether it is going to trial or not has yet to be decided, it shouldn't IMHO but it's far from a sure thing that it will.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,774
556
126
If somehow Trayvon Martin survived being shot then there'd be more evidence about how the confrontation started because in that hypothetical situation the police would have interviewed interrogated him as well..

Sure the hypothetical testimony might have been unreliable but the court system would have more raw information about the case.

To that trial point yes as far as I know the initial motions regarding Florida's SYG laws will be heard in late April or early May from what I read last about the story. I should have said it is going before a Judge.

Then the Judge will decide if SYG laws are enough to throw out the case or if there is enough evidence to bring the case to trial.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
I have a sneaking suspicion that if Zimmerman gets off on this charge -- which I think likely -- they are going to try to find something else to get him on, even if it's relatively minor.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
If somehow Trayvon Martin survived being shot then there'd be more evidence about how the confrontation started because in that hypothetical situation the police would have interviewed interrogated him as well..

Sure the hypothetical testimony might have been unreliable but the court system would have more raw information about the case.

To that trial point yes as far as I know the initial motions regarding Florida's SYG laws will be heard in late April or early May from what I read last about the story. I should have said it is going before a Judge.

Then the Judge will decide if SYG laws are enough to throw out the case or if there is enough evidence to bring the case to trial.
Gotcha, and yes it will go before a judge...so the question is do you honestly think there is enough evidence to take it to trial? Do you really feel there is enough for a conviction?
I have a sneaking suspicion that if Zimmerman gets off on this charge -- which I think likely -- they are going to try to find something else to get him on, even if it's relatively minor.
I would tend to agree with you, there are many who want his head over this regardless of fault...
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
I'll reserve judgment about fault until the trial happens.

It may be he is truly innocent. But it's also possible that he is acquitted of the murder charge, but found liable for his other actions that led to the confrontation.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,404
9,599
136
If a person approaches another, instigates a confrontation that then turns violent, how do we draw the line on their right to life, on their right to self defense?

What if they approach each other and they BOTH equally instigate a confrontation that then turns violent? This case raises many very difficult questions that I'm afraid cannot be properly dealt with by the law without proper evidence.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,774
556
126
Gotcha, and yes it will go before a judge...so the question is do you honestly think there is enough evidence to take it to trial? Do you really feel there is enough for a conviction?

Personally I don't know anymore I've stopped following the case after a few months in the P&N thread many people started trolling each other and speculating seemed to be rather pointless so far out. As the case actually gets closer to the initial hearing I'll actually look at it again.

I will say this however, justice and law aren't always the same. I don't think he needed to get out of the car. At that point it was still a teenager walking in the rain.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
If I pick a fight with you and you start whupping my ass, can I shoot you and claim self defense?

Yes, theoretically.

There are specific criteria that must be met, though. Generally, you must make it clear you wish to stop fighting and attempt to withdraw (i.e., retreat). My (limited) research indicated this provision was established for the benefit of women subjected to domestic violence. Women who started the 'fight', like slapping their husband/boyfriend etc, could not then claim self-defense when that husband/boyfriend subsequently started seriously kicking their azz and threatening them with great bodily harm or death.

Fern
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
I'll reserve judgment about fault until the trial happens.

It may be he is truly innocent. But it's also possible that he is acquitted of the murder charge, but found liable for his other actions that led to the confrontation.
And if no trial ever happens with him being let off for justified self defense? And what liability would be held to for his other actions, none of which were illegal?
Personally I don't know anymore I've stopped following the case after a few months in the P&N thread many people started trolling each other and speculating seemed to be rather pointless so far out. As the case actually gets closer to the initial hearing I'll actually look at it again.

I will say this however, justice and law aren't always the same. I don't think he needed to get out of the car. At that point it was still a teenager walking in the rain.
I have stopped following it there as well, I was checking in now and then but it really is just bickering and name calling...you are correct that justice and the law aren't always the same thing, quite often they are diametrically opposed to each other. And while we can all say he didn't need to get out of the car we have the benefit of hindsight, in the moment there was no way to know how it would turn out and no reason to believe it would turn out the way it did.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
I'll reserve judgment about fault until the trial happens.

It may be he is truly innocent. But it's also possible that he is acquitted of the murder charge, but found liable for his other actions that led to the confrontation.
Which actions that led to the confrontation do you think Zimmerman could possibly be "found liable" for?
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Which actions that led to the confrontation do you think Zimmerman could possibly be "found liable" for?

I don't know. I just know that the authorities can be awfully creative when they decide someone has gotten away with something and they want to throw a bone to those who think he shouldn't get away "scot-free". (Which, really, isn't true anyway, he's had quite a year.)
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
-snip-

But at a higher level, what responsibility does someone have for creating a situation in which the self-defense itself was necessary? All I keep coming back to is this: if Zimmerman had stayed in his damned car, none of this would have happened. Can someone really be an "innocent victim" when they create the situation that leads to the shooting?

So, your position is that following and observing someone "creates" their assault on you?

What crimes, misdemeanor or felony, do you believe GZ committed by following and observing TM?

If GZ's actions were permitted under the law, how can the law hold him responsible for a resulting assault against him?

Do you not believe that TM likewise 'created" this situation by his apparent willful failure to go to his home but instead remained outside thus (at least) creating an opportunity for a confrontation? (Like GZ, TM was not compelled by the law to go in his home.)

(And before anyone wants to pick on details, I'm well aware the house/apt was not his family's but was his father's GF's.)

Fern
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
So, your position is that following and observing someone "creates" their assault on you?

I think if you read my explanation in post #19, you'll see that this is not my position. I even specifically said: "I agree that following someone is not something for which one should be physically assaulted."

The matter of following and observing is something not that I think inherently makes Zimmerman guilty of anything. I simply believe it is not of the same caliber of "innocence" as someone who is just walking along the street.

Zimmerman expressed a hostile disposition towards Martin in his phone call to 9/11 even before he left his car. That matters to me, and I think many other people. Once again, it doesn't prove he is guilty of murder, but it does make it harder to believe that Zimmerman was "just walking" and Martin was the aggressor.

If GZ's actions were permitted under the law, how can the law hold him responsible for a resulting assault against him?

We'll find out. I said, it was just a hunch.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
I think if you read my explanation in post #19, you'll see that this is not my position. I even specifically said: "I agree that following someone is not something for which one should be physically assaulted."

The matter of following and observing is something not that I think inherently makes Zimmerman guilty of anything. I simply believe it is not of the same caliber of "innocence" as someone who is just walking along the street.

This bit you wrote confused me:

But at a higher level, what responsibility does someone have for creating a situation in which the self-defense itself was necessary? All I keep coming back to is this: if Zimmerman had stayed in his damned car, none of this would have happened. Can someone really be an "innocent victim" when they create the situation that leads to the shooting?

Fern
 
Last edited:

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,348
16,726
136
Trayvon isn't being charged with anything...if it were so easy to do then we would be seeing this happen a lot, but we aren't. How many people are going to "instigate" a fight by not touching someone and then letting that person beat on them for a while then shoot them? That's taking a mighty big chance that the person beating on you won't be able to take the gun from you or hurt you badly enough that you would be unable to shoot them, only a complete idiot would think that was a good idea.

I think the case could be made;)