What exactly are Democrats afraid of?

[Zenmervolt]

Robert Pirsig summed it up perfectly (emphasis mine):

You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.

ZV

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Robert Pirsig summed it up perfectly (emphasis mine):

You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.

ZV

What does that really tell us? Why do people, shall I say it, fear doubt?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I assume, bamacre, since you have some insight into the nature of mirrors, that you are aware that not only do we project on others our own fears, that also what we critique in others is what we critique in ourselves, or to put it more directly, that the reason you can see that Democrats fear their own failures is because you fear your own, or more exactly that your ideological purity, your need to be unsullied by the taint of Democrat or Republican, your need to escape fear, has driven you into the idealism of the third party that will have no real governance in the world and thus not the slightest chance of failure, and that there in your ivory tower of separateness you can throw bombs at us mere mortals who chose to work with the only evils at hand, and that in this fictional place in your head there exists the untested and untestable illusion that if by some miracle unseen, if your party came to power, it would be any different than what we already see. For the one thing you can't escape is that, as you said, "You are them, and they are you."

I think this is not a wacky hypothesis.

I did mention the (lack of) political success of my own ideology in the OP, and while reality is certainly disappointing, it is what it is, and I have no expectations of anything beyond. But that is certainly not ever going to be a reason for me to jump ship. Why would I leave something that may not work for something proven, time and time again, to be a failure? Do I care to come across as some arrogant bastard and say I have no fear? No, but I feel my ideology is by far the most moral. My fear can only be not that it won't govern, but that I'll leave it for not doing so. And I look at you all and I have great courage.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Robert Pirsig summed it up perfectly (emphasis mine):

You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.

ZV

There's a world of difference between doubt and uncertainty.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero
People are realizing Obama is a radical. The Chinese and others realized it right off the bat and that's why they worried about their money. Americans have such a naive view, they cant accept they might have voted for a Marxist tyrant thinking they were voting for an idealist - so they are stuck in reverbing about Bush. Its spectacular (in a way) to see people excuse Obama's nuclear sized deficits by alluding to Bush's larger but MUCH smaller sums. It's true GOP has lack of direction - but it would be good if Dems only had this same problem. They have a direction alright and its right into poverty and Marxist oppression. When Obama says "You aint seen nothing yet" he means it. When he is secure in his own mind he will really take the mask off. Obama voters voted away the country last fall. They willfully ignored he was a radical. Now they have a Rev Wright "roosting chickens" future ahead of them.

*sigh*

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

The democrats are not exactly happy to be playing the shitty cards dealt them by the total failure of GWB&co.

I am sure FDR was not happy with the Great Depression or WW2 cards dealt to him. I am sure Lincoln was not happy with the Civil War card dealt to him. I am sure Eisenhower was not happy with the Cold War card dealt to him. I am sure Kennedy was not happy with the Vietnam and Cuba cards dealt to him.

Great leaders address the cards dealt to them and manage crisis. Poor leaders make excuses for the cards dealt to them. Which type of leadership will the Democrats provide? Every time they blame Bush for the cards dealt, I fear the latter.

FDR extensively criticized the Hoover administration and the shit sandwich it left him. Obama's moves to address this crisis are a small fraction of what FDR did, but people are currently freaking out and calling him a communist. God only knows what they would say if Obama acted like FDR actually did, they would probably have a collective aneurysm.

Obama's done a decent job with it so far, and I think the sheer amount of successful legislation that he has pushed through in such a short period of time is nothing short of mind boggling. Stimulus package, credit card reform, new emission standards for the first time in 30 years, he's nominated a new USSC justice that the Republicans are frightened to oppose despite her pro-choice and liberal views, etc... etc. I don't think people realize it because he doesn't strut his stuff like Bush did, but Obama is kicking ass all over Washington.

Now that doesn't mean you have to LIKE what Obama is doing, but he's most certainly taking active leadership.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Prior to 9-11 we were headed for a correction, after 9-11, we bandaged the economy and blew all common sense out the window with moronically devised mortgages and personal finances.

We'll pay for this mistake for a long time....

Peeps in CA are still flipping houses, it's goddamn insane...

As far as the OP's question, the Democrats should be afraid, we can only heap so much debit on our children.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Its gotten so bad that some liberal members actually encouraged conservatives to kill themselves, and another encourages waterboarding ALL conservatives. Winning politically enough enough, they want conservatives dead.

Those are not liberals, they are ex-republicans angry at the state of their party acting out in typical conservative fashion.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Its gotten so bad that some liberal members actually encouraged conservatives to kill themselves, and another encourages waterboarding ALL conservatives. Winning politically enough enough, they want conservatives dead.

Those are not liberals, they are ex-republicans angry at the state of their party acting out in typical conservative fashion.

zing!

but seriously, social conservatives can diaf.

 

[Liberator21]

Originally posted by: Perknose

4. George Bush and Dick Cheney fucked us but good. They left a mess that's not going away anytime soon. Best to roll up your sleeves, pick up a shovel with Obama and the rest of us, leave the holy jihad against gay marriage and other such asshole diversions like crying "socialism, socialism" behind, and lend a hand. We've got a hard stretch of road ahead, and we really need your help.

Wow this is truly astounding. So you really think people should abandon their core ideologies and not worry about a possible Socialist nanny-state. Sorry I hate that term but when you say we're "crying" about it, we're actually voicing very real concerns over an issue that needs to be addressed - not an "asshole diversion (?)" of something.

It would also appear that the only "shovel" Obama has donned is to throw piles and piles of money down a rathole - like it will actually solve our problems.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Prior to 9-11 we were headed for a correction, after 9-11, we bandaged the economy and blew all common sense out the window with moronically devised mortgages and personal finances.

We'll pay for this mistake for a long time....

Peeps in CA are still flipping houses, it's goddamn insane...

As far as the OP's question, the Democrats should be afraid, we can only heap so much debit on our children.

I hear this a lot. How do you think we're 'heaping debt on our children'? Do you think our children are going to have to build cars and send them back in time to 2009 to repay our debt? The vast majority of our debt is internal debt, meaning we owe it to ourselves. We'll get by with the goods and services we produce as a country in the future the same way we get by today.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: bamacre
So my question is, what exactly are you afraid of?

1. Fear itself?
2. That Jon Stewart will run out of jokes?
3. That Texas won't make good on it's threat to secede?
4. That godforbid anything happens to Obama, Biden takes over?
5. That godforbid anything happens to Biden and Pelosi takes over?
6. That gay marriage actually IS a sign of the coming apocalypse??
7. That Hannity, Rush and Beck give up and join the Dems?
8. That Olbermann becomes Press Secretary ala Tony Snow?
9. That Obama "did not have sexual relations" with Hillary?

and the number 10 thing that Democrats are afraid of:

10. Palin Icecapades?

You Win

 

[Shuxclams]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: bamacre
So my question is, what exactly are you afraid of?

1. Fear itself?
2. That Jon Stewart will run out of jokes?
3. That Texas won't make good on it's threat to secede?
4. That godforbid anything happens to Obama, Biden takes over?
5. That godforbid anything happens to Biden and Pelosi takes over?
6. That gay marriage actually IS a sign of the coming apocalypse??
7. That Hannity, Rush and Beck give up and join the Dems?
8. That Olbermann becomes Press Secretary ala Tony Snow?
9. That Obama "did not have sexual relations" with Hillary?

and the number 10 thing that Democrats are afraid of:

10. Palin Icecapades?

You Win

Thanks Boberfett... PS LTNS and F-U

SHUX

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: bamacre

I think this is not a wacky hypothesis.

I did mention the (lack of) political success of my own ideology in the OP, and while reality is certainly disappointing, it is what it is, and I have no expectations of anything beyond. But that is certainly not ever going to be a reason for me to jump ship. Why would I leave something that may not work for something proven, time and time again, to be a failure? Do I care to come across as some arrogant bastard and say I have no fear? No, but I feel my ideology is by far the most moral. My fear can only be not that it won't govern, but that I'll leave it for not doing so. And I look at you all and I have great courage.

As I have told you over and over again, the morality of your ideology does not transfer to you because, in your desire for clean hands, you aid and abet the greater of two other evils. Reality is not just disappointing. It can be made far worse by fanatics like you.

You insulate yourself from this truth by denial, a denial you would never practice if you took seriously the notion that there really is a thing called evil. If you had a child that could be saved by stem cell research, let us say, you would never, I hope, throw away a vote on somebody other than somebody who might beat him.

 

[jonks]

New Gallup poll indicates Dems have very little to fear in the long run unless Reps undergo some MAJOR demographic shifts.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118...rvative-Religious.aspx

The results show clearly that the Republican Party today is first and foremost a political entity dominated by white Americans. Eighty-nine percent of rank-and-file Republicans are non-Hispanic whites, leaving just 5% who are Hispanic (of any race), 2% who are black, and 4% of other races.

The white majority in the US is shrinking. The Reps may win a few election cycles in the next 20 years or so, but unless they make major headway into diversity recruitment, they'll still be 90% white, except white will only be 40% of the country, and that don't win squat.

I keep seeing people say that the Reps will come back to power and reports of the party's demise are exaggerated, but looking at those demographic numbers, I don't think this is simply a matter of being politically out of favor. The core of the party constituency is being swallowed.

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: Perknose
A few thoughts on the matter:

1. The Democratic Party sucks. It has a huge number of career cover-your-ass bozos in it's elected ranks.

2. The Republican Party is so far worse, there is really no comparison. It is a false comparison to just say, "Well, gee, they're both bad." It ignores the titanic and world class social and ideological ignorance and dangerous declasse stupidity of the party that put forth Sarah Palin for national office.

3. Ron Paul fanboism is a deluded detour to a non-existent nirvana for those who simply can't deal with the almost overwhelming complexity of the a large scale state in today's internecine world. Sorry guys, but your "purity" is that of the eternal dilettante outsider. There are more literal monarchists in England than there are Ron Paul supporters in America, and with good reason.

Tear down your Ayn Rand posters and get over yourselves, there's work to be done.

4. George Bush and Dick Cheney fucked us but good. They left a mess that's not going away anytime soon. Best to roll up your sleeves, pick up a shovel with Obama and the rest of us, leave the holy jihad against gay marriage and other such asshole diversions like crying "socialism, socialism" behind, and lend a hand. We've got a hard stretch of road ahead, and we really need your help.

This seems like a pretty good summary.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

I think it was George Washington who said that a two-party system is bad for the country. Because then it's either "You're with us or against us." And one group is the bad guys and one group is the good guys.

That being said, it's pretty obvious why the Democrats are scared. They are in complete control right now, and they are trying some extremely radical, far-left stuff. America is a center-right nation. The left is trying to ram as much stuff through as possible before the American people wake up.

And that is what the Democrats fear...it's what all politicians, regardless of party, fear: Losing power.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: jonks
New Gallup poll indicates Dems have very little to fear in the long run unless Reps undergo some MAJOR demographic shifts.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118...rvative-Religious.aspx

The results show clearly that the Republican Party today is first and foremost a political entity dominated by white Americans. Eighty-nine percent of rank-and-file Republicans are non-Hispanic whites, leaving just 5% who are Hispanic (of any race), 2% who are black, and 4% of other races.

The white majority in the US is shrinking. The Reps may win a few election cycles in the next 20 years or so, but unless they make major headway into diversity recruitment, they'll still be 90% white, except white will only be 40% of the country, and that don't win squat.

I keep seeing people say that the Reps will come back to power and reports of the party's demise are exaggerated, but looking at those demographic numbers, I don't think this is simply a matter of being politically out of favor. The core of the party constituency is being swallowed.

It also doesn't help that the Republican's policies hurt poor and middle class whites and people are waking up to this.

 

[Genx87]

Republicans biggest area to grow is with Latino voters. Will they figure it out? I dont know. Immigration issue could really solidy a latino base for Republicans. But I question whether the Republicans will figure it out.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Republicans biggest area to grow is with Latino voters. Will they figure it out? I dont know. Immigration issue could really solidy a latino base for Republicans. But I question whether the Republicans will figure it out.

re: Sotomayor, the "she's a racist!" chrous from their most vocal spokespersons can't be helping much either.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: bamacre

I think this is not a wacky hypothesis.

I did mention the (lack of) political success of my own ideology in the OP, and while reality is certainly disappointing, it is what it is, and I have no expectations of anything beyond. But that is certainly not ever going to be a reason for me to jump ship. Why would I leave something that may not work for something proven, time and time again, to be a failure? Do I care to come across as some arrogant bastard and say I have no fear? No, but I feel my ideology is by far the most moral. My fear can only be not that it won't govern, but that I'll leave it for not doing so. And I look at you all and I have great courage.

As I have told you over and over again, the morality of your ideology does not transfer to you because, in your desire for clean hands, you aid and abet the greater of two other evils. Reality is not just disappointing. It can be made far worse by fanatics like you.

You insulate yourself from this truth by denial, a denial you would never practice if you took seriously the notion that there really is a thing called evil. If you had a child that could be saved by stem cell research, let us say, you would never, I hope, throw away a vote on somebody other than somebody who might beat him.

I will have to disagree with you, Moonbeam.

I argue that we certainly are not aiding nor abetting the "greater of two other evils," i.e., the Republicans. We have become either a thorn in their side or the medicine in their cabinet. We have not become a tool on their belt, that is for sure. And I thought this was quite evident in the past election, not just in the campaign, but perhaps even affecting the vote. At the very minimum, a million Republicans refused to vote for McCain.

We are whacking them over the heads, reminding them just how far economically left and socially right they have moved.

During the election, we may have recommended people vote 3rd party, but not in attempt to take votes away from Obama, but McCain. And while I think Bush was more responsible for Obama's success than us, we didn't hurt. What is ironic is that so many on the Left bashed the one Republican who made sense, the one who opposed the warfare state, the one who opposed the trampling of our rights, the one who opposed the social conservatism. And did he run to win? Certainly not. He ran because he's a doctor and people needed help.

In the face of attack and ridicule, he stood up to the enemy on their own turf. IMO, he did such a good job they refused to invite him back. And while a few will never accept their needed medicine, just enough of them are.

And I think that many do not understand that in order to win, in order to fix the Republican party, it is not necessary that our message, our beliefs, be embraced 100%, but just enough to rid the party of its disease. But perhaps this is what you fear, that one day, the Republicans will no longer be be the worse of two evils.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Genx87
Republicans biggest area to grow is with Latino voters. Will they figure it out? I dont know. Immigration issue could really solidy a latino base for Republicans. But I question whether the Republicans will figure it out.

re: Sotomayor, the "she's a racist!" chrous from their most vocal spokespersons can't be helping much either.

That will be forgotten in a few years. Republicans can lead the charge on immigration if they wanted. Paint the democrats as a party of preserving latino 2nd class citizen status quo by not reforming immigration.

 

[BoberFett]

.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Republicans biggest area to grow is with Latino voters. Will they figure it out? I dont know. Immigration issue could really solidy a latino base for Republicans. But I question whether the Republicans will figure it out.

If you are referring to lifting regulations against illegal immigration, then this is one area where I DON'T want a political party to solidify a latino base. What's best for the politicians isn't necessarily best for this country.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Genx87
Republicans biggest area to grow is with Latino voters. Will they figure it out? I dont know. Immigration issue could really solidy a latino base for Republicans. But I question whether the Republicans will figure it out.

If you are referring to lifting regulations against illegal immigration, then this is one area where I DON'T want a political party to solidify a latino base. What's best for the politicians isn't necessarily best for this country.

Lifting? I say streamlining. Make it easier for people from Mexico to become full fledged citizens.

What is the process like right now? How many years does it take? I have heard upwards of a decade? You expect some poor Mexican to wait that long for citizenship?