What does 'far-left' actually (theoretically?) mean?

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zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
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in my context of a western european country, it means left of the social democrats. Mostly, that means communists, often but not necessarily extra-parliamentarian, plus the extra-parlamentarian autonomous social centres and antifa groups which have more militant tendencies in getting their point across, by vandalizing banks and burning cars during protests, and organizing counterprotests against the far-right with both sides being ready to justify violence against the other.

Typically, these people defend the chavez/maduro regime against all data, and often even north korea, purely on an ideological basis. Their acceptance of center-right democratic outcomes is tenuous tbh.
At least as it pertains to the US, communists are not a thing. Technically I am sure there is a super small fringe group of people in the US that believe communists is a viable national platform. Probably even much smaller then the already extremely small ANTIFA fringe group. So if that is the definition in the US then for practical purposes the far left doesn't exist in the US?
 

ewdotson

Golden Member
Oct 30, 2011
1,295
1,520
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The problem here, from my pov, is that slavery was 100% legal at the time and the distinction you're making *isn't* one that the law made or that the slave would have had any reason to think they could make. Hence my original statement about your underestimating (perhaps I should have said understating) the evils of slavery.

Regardless, I do very much acknowledge that this side discussion is *super* ancillary to the larger points you were trying to argue.
 

Dave_5k

Platinum Member
May 23, 2017
2,007
3,820
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...If you want to get even an inkling of how complicated the topic is, then visit https://www.politicalcompass.org/ and go through the survey. TBH I'd be hard-pushed to come up with a single yes/no question to honestly, seriously and accurately determine whether one is left/right leaning.
Fun survey, although I really don't see myself as halfway between Bernie Sanders and Nelson Mandela like the survey results showed, although I do admittedly have some unrealistic libertarian leanings :)
 

zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
3,264
2,287
136
Fun survey, although I really don't see myself as halfway between Bernie Sanders and Nelson Mandela like the survey results showed, although I do admittedly have some unrealistic libertarian leanings :)
Really the entire question is somewhat idiotic. If only limited to the right and left in the US the answer would be people on either side who's views most drastically contrast that of the other. Limit that to people in power and would that be progressive democrats like AOC or Bernie? So are progressive democrats far left?
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
The problem here, from my pov, is that slavery was 100% legal at the time and the distinction you're making *isn't* one that the law made or that the slave would have had any reason to think they could make. Hence my original statement about your underestimating (perhaps I should have said understating) the evils of slavery.

Regardless, I do very much acknowledge that this side discussion is *super* ancillary to the larger points you were trying to argue.

The idea of slavery being the main social construct of the entire world in every population segment up until the beginning of the 1800's doesn't mean it mean slaves real property. From the social and "legal" standpoints of the slave owners it does, but from the perspective of the slaves themselves it doesn't. Ownership is only a thing when everyone agrees to it and you posses it. We are talking academia concepts here. This is because property ownership is solely a social concept but also a natural right as well. You technically can't "own" something that someone else has laid claim to. Slaves that are not willing slaves lay claim to their own body even under duress. That is why will is key component here. Again, this is a tangential point to the OP and what I was talking about originally. As you said it is very ancillary and basically a strawman argument because of it being ancillary. Eski is good at those. For me personally if a person wants to be a "slave" and be property to someone else that accepts them as a "slave" then that matters not to me. Many a person still do this to this day as married couples under various religions like Muslims. Now, I will state in many cases it is against the will of the woman so I am against that, but there are plenty of women that love the concept. If they want it then more power to them. I am not saying real slavery doesn't exist or it isn't evil. It exist even today and certainly is the epitome of evil.

Speaking of side notes, the political compass is as useful as a horoscope from the newspaper. Don't read too much into it as the concepts overlap too much or are literally contrary to real concepts.

Lastly, I did make a mistake earlier in this thread when comparing liberal to conservative. It should have been progressive to conservative. Progressive means to make changes on the status quo no matter what. Conservative is the opposite. Liberal is to favor constructs that lean towards both individual and social freedoms. Classical liberal is more about individual freedoms and new wave liberals are about social freedoms. Sometimes those two align, but many times they don't.

The last thing about the american political system is we have two political parties that are in some ways all encompassing even if stereotypical. Democrats and Republicans. Democrats are more left leaning in political spectrum and Republicans are more right leaning. Democrats more social liberal these days and Republicans more classical liberal. Back in the day the Republican party was the progressives and the party of change. They made that change happen by doing things like abolishing slavery, and bringing about more classical liberal changes. These days, since the societal constructs were "set" by the Republicans in the past, they have become the conservatives as society in America is more right leaning in politics for the last few generations while the Democrat party is more "progressive" for changes as the left leaning party. Again, many shades of gray here and no absolutes. This is a tangent to the original OP asking about the definition of far left and far right, but since most people expect the "complicated" answer I am expanding upon the overall political system in the US in this paragraph for those wanting that answer. I am not pigeon holing anyone these days about who they are based on the political party they identify with. There are classic as well as new wave liberals currently in the Democrat party. As Alexandria Occasional Cortex Smollet (yes I am making fun of her because I think she is a young stupid kid) even stated, the democrat party as is in the US would be two parties really in any other country. Because within the party the opposed ideologies of classic vs new age liberalism don't really overlap much.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,040
24,351
136
The idea of slavery being the main social construct of the entire world in every population segment up until the beginning of the 1800's doesn't mean it mean slaves real property. From the social and "legal" standpoints of the slave owners it does, but from the perspective of the slaves themselves it doesn't. Ownership is only a thing when everyone agrees to it and you posses it. We are talking academia concepts here. This is because property ownership is solely a social concept but also a natural right as well. You technically can't "own" something that someone else has laid claim to. Slaves that are not willing slaves lay claim to their own body even under duress. That is why will is key component here. Again, this is a tangential point to the OP and what I was talking about originally. As you said it is very ancillary and basically a strawman argument because of it being ancillary. Eski is good at those. For me personally if a person wants to be a "slave" and be property to someone else that accepts them as a "slave" then that matters not to me. Many a person still do this to this day as married couples under various religions like Muslims. Now, I will state in many cases it is against the will of the woman so I am against that, but there are plenty of women that love the concept. If they want it then more power to them. I am not saying real slavery doesn't exist or it isn't evil. It exist even today and certainly is the epitome of evil.

Speaking of side notes, the political compass is as useful as a horoscope from the newspaper. Don't read too much into it as the concepts overlap too much or are literally contrary to real concepts.

Lastly, I did make a mistake earlier in this thread when comparing liberal to conservative. It should have been progressive to conservative. Progressive means to make changes on the status quo no matter what. Conservative is the opposite. Liberal is to favor constructs that lean towards both individual and social freedoms. Classical liberal is more about individual freedoms and new wave liberals are about social freedoms. Sometimes those two align, but many times they don't.

The last thing about the american political system is we have two political parties that are in some ways all encompassing even if stereotypical. Democrats and Republicans. Democrats are more left leaning in political spectrum and Republicans are more right leaning. Democrats more social liberal these days and Republicans more classical liberal. Back in the day the Republican party was the progressives and the party of change. They made that change happen by doing things like abolishing slavery, and bringing about more classical liberal changes. These days, since the societal constructs were "set" by the Republicans in the past, they have become the conservatives as society in America is more right leaning in politics for the last few generations while the Democrat party is more "progressive" for changes as the left leaning party. Again, many shades of gray here and no absolutes. This is a tangent to the original OP asking about the definition of far left and far right, but since most people expect the "complicated" answer I am expanding upon the overall political system in the US in this paragraph for those wanting that answer. I am not pigeon holing anyone these days about who they are based on the political party they identify with. There are classic as well as new wave liberals currently in the Democrat party. As Alexandria Occasional Cortex Smollet (yes I am making fun of her because I think she is a young stupid kid) even stated, the democrat party as is in the US would be two parties really in any other country. Because within the party the opposed ideologies of classic vs new age liberalism don't really overlap much.
AOC is much smarter than you, even though she can be naive. She doesn't say dumb shit like the average American liberal could be placed in venezuela and be happy with the system there.
 
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HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
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AOC is much smarter than you, even though she can be naive. She doesn't say dumb shit like the average American liberal could be placed in venezuela and be happy with the system there.

Considering she, like Bernie, had been advocating for the Venezuela system here in the US until it recently turned to shit you'd be wrong on this one.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Considering she, like Bernie, had been advocating for the Venezuela system here in the US until it recently turned to shit you'd be wrong on this one.
That is how gone you are. Neither of them has done any of that. Let me know where they asked to nationalize the means of production for many industries, including oil, have the military oversee production and distribution of daily goods, simply seize all of an individual's wealth and business, etc..
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,433
9,941
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In my neck of the woods, far left is anyone who doesn't support (worship) Trump.
It's real hard AFAIK to find someone around here who worships Trump. I wouldn't know, anyway, because I'm SIP during the pandemic. But one day while standing in line to vote here around 10 years ago I glanced at the chart on the wall next to me that showed the political affiliation of myriad people set to vote there and Republican was very very rare.

I don't know if I could live where you live. It would drive me nuts. Maybe I'd get used to it, I mean, I'm an intelligent, sensitive person. I'd adapt. But the culture shock would be off the charts.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Link it up.

Her defund the police calls, her 4 page green new deal socialist reforms, and plenty of other similar socialist programs she continues to espouse for are similar to what was done in Venezuela as well as other socialist countries. Both her and Bernie have been advocating for socialist reforms since day 1 in office for either of them. But if you really want something to read.

 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Her defund the police calls, her 4 page green new deal socialist reforms, and plenty of other similar socialist programs she continues to espouse for are similar to what was done in Venezuela as well as other socialist countries. Both her and Bernie have been advocating for socialist reforms since day 1 in office for either of them. But if you really want something to read.

Yes guys, if you want something to read then read this tabloid opinion article by a convicted felon who said liberals were to blame for 9/11 because they like sex too much. lol.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Yes guys, if you want something to read then read this tabloid opinion article by a convicted felon who said liberals were to blame for 9/11 because they like sex too much. lol.
Another attack the messenger fallacy.




Literally any source I provide that is considered a certified news source on this you would attack because it isn't a news source you like. Which makes it pointless in having a debate with you. Hence why this forum is an echo chamber. You don't even bother looking over what is presented and instead stick your fingers in your ears going blah blah blah. Either way, this is a discussion of an opinion in either direction.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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I can't nice people are still responding to posts like this. This is Q shaman level logic.

Remember, he literally was going to sue Dick's for not selling him an assault rifle, ruining his baby Jesus birthday bash and causing him such irreparable harm that it left him with permanent mental anguish such that he was comparing himself to MLK and the plight of black people during the Civil Rights Movement. Well, until he decided he's just a cheap whore and settled for a bit of money instead.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,627
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Another attack the messenger fallacy.



Literally any source I provide that is considered a certified news source on this you would attack because it isn't a news source you like. Which makes it pointless in having a debate with you. Hence why it is an echo chamber. You don't even bother looking over what is presented and instead stick your fingers in your ears going blah blah blah. Either way, this is a discussion of an opinion in either direction.
Thank you for proving my point, haha. Attacking sources is not a fallacy, it’s a basic part of debate to use credible sources and the fact that you don’t understand that explains why you’re so ignorant about so many topics. The fact that you thought linking other opinion pieces from a propaganda outlet that was recently busted for lying to its readers about the 2020 election is even funnier.

You said calls for defunding the police made her platform like Venezuela. How? Venezuela has a ton of cops and one of the big things Hugo Chavez did was expand the police force and pay them a lot more. He funded the police, big time! Green new deal? Venezuela has a horrible environmental record and invests little to nothing in carbon neutral technologies, considering its dependencecon fossil fuels.

If you want to make an argument make specific factual assertions yourself and back them up. Linking to opinion articles from convicted felons and known liars is pointless.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Thank you for proving my point, haha. Attacking sources is not a fallacy, it’s a basic part of debate to use credible sources and the fact that you don’t understand that explains why you’re so ignorant about so many topics. The fact that you thought linking other opinion pieces from a propaganda outlet that was recently busted for lying to its readers about the 2020 election is even funnier.

You said calls for defunding the police made her platform like Venezuela. How? Venezuela has a ton of cops and one of the big things Hugo Chavez did was expand the police force and pay them a lot more. He funded the police, big time! Green new deal? Venezuela has a horrible environmental record and invests little to nothing in carbon neutral technologies, considering its dependencecon fossil fuels.

If you want to make an argument make specific factual assertions yourself and back them up. Linking to opinion articles from convicted felons and known liars is pointless.

Nytimes is now considered propaganda? I thought they were your darling. As I said, the discussion of what AOC and Bernie represent in terms of the relation to what has been done in other socialist countries like Venezuela is going to be a pure opinion issue either way. If you can't see the similarities for yourself then no one can point them out to you.

Also, attacking the messenger is a logic fallacy. Attacking the message isn't. You are still a douche for not knowing the difference.
 
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HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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Have you ever attempted to have a discussion without calling someone a name? Just curious.

He hasn't like most people around here. Most aren't here for an actual civil discussion at all. Look at how this thread has devolved just because someone with a different perspective than what they want on the topic actually posted in this thread. I came out and listed the definition of left-wing and right-wing politics, as defined as by wiki and gave a simple rubric to help people understand how those definitions can be applied to themselves. Instead, most posters here would rather attack, smear, play victimhood cards thinking anything I said was an attack on themselves for some reason, as well as try to derail the topic into something else they can try to attack me over such as the current discussion of AOC's and Bernie's view of socialism.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Nytimes is now considered propaganda? I thought they were your darling.
1) You added that in later.
2) opinion pieces are worthless no matter where they are published. The times published an opinion piece from Vladimir Putin, for example.

As I said, the discussion of what AOC and Bernie represent in terms of the relation to what has been done in other socialist countries like Venezuela is going to be a pure opinion issue either way. If you can't see the similarities for yourself then no one can point them out to you.
It’s not pure opinion at all, so let’s discuss it. You said calling to defund the police was similar to Venezuela. How, specifically? What Venezuelan policy does it replicate and how do you square that with the fact that one of Chavez’s signature initiatives was to create a big new police force and give them way more money?

You can also admit you were wrong about that, of course, haha.

Also, attacking the messenger is a logic fallacy. Attacking the message isn't. You are still a douche for not knowing the difference.
This is false, and you don’t understand what an ad hominem fallacy is. Saying that Dinesh is wrong because he has an ugly face would be a fallacy. Saying his opinion is not credible due to a long history of ridiculous lies that he’s been caught in is basic evaluation of a source. You should have been taught this in around 6th grade, but again your inability to understand what is a credible source and what is not is a big reason you have so many dumb ideas.

Remember when you were linking to white power websites for crime analysis? Lol.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
29,452
29,865
136
Another attack the messenger fallacy.




Literally any source I provide that is considered a certified news source on this you would attack because it isn't a news source you like. Which makes it pointless in having a debate with you. Hence why this forum is an echo chamber. You don't even bother looking over what is presented and instead stick your fingers in your ears going blah blah blah. Either way, this is a discussion of an opinion in either direction.

I'll be honest I stopped reading the first one pretty quickly since it was attempting to make argument that advocates for Democratic Socialism in the US would take the same path in rejecting democracy that the GOP has actually done since 2010 in this country. Its reeks of projection. But I'm not shocked that you read the federalist and consider it a credible source given your posting history here.
 
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Pohemi

Lifer
Oct 2, 2004
10,859
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The idea of slavery being the main social construct of the entire world in every population segment up until the beginning of the 1800's doesn't mean it mean slaves real property. From the social and "legal" standpoints of the slave owners it does, but from the perspective of the slaves themselves it doesn't.
Another attack the messenger fallacy.
Literally any source I provide that is considered a certified news source on this you would attack because it isn't a news source you like. Which makes it pointless in having a debate with you. Hence why this forum is an echo chamber. You don't even bother looking over what is presented and instead stick your fingers in your ears going blah blah blah. Either way, this is a discussion of an opinion in either direction.
He hasn't like most people around here. Most aren't here for an actual civil discussion at all. Look at how this thread has devolved just because someone with a different perspective than what they want on the topic actually posted in this thread. I came out and listed the definition of left-wing and right-wing politics, as defined as by wiki and gave a simple rubric to help people understand how those definitions can be applied to themselves. Instead, most posters here would rather attack, smear, play victimhood cards thinking anything I said was an attack on themselves for some reason, as well as try to derail the topic into something else they can try to attack me over such as the current discussion of AOC's and Bernie's view of socialism.
Lies and misrepresentation, there were no facts or truth in your claims.
Link it up.
He can't, because it's all lies.
I can't believe people are still responding to posts like this. This is Q shaman level logic.
Well...he's Q shaman level idiot, too.

@HumblePie just shut the fuck up since you can't ever be honest in discussions here. Fuck off.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,040
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Posts opinion pieces :) Just take a few of their positions, link them up, Bernies should be the easiest as he ran for president so has clear national policies on his website, then point out how they are like Venezuela, not European models.

Also, defund the police, while a stupid slogan, means doing stuff like this, which makes a shit-ton of sense (but is way too much actual thinking to do for your actual right winger these days)

 
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