Discussion What do you think of this Police encounter?

[NWRMidnight]

And? Afaict, government employment includes what the private sector considers unreasonable benefits.

LEO's get some pretty sweet deals that the private sector rarely sees anymore. That's all there is to it. And they're protected from fucking up while the private sector can fire anyone for anything, anytime.

Wait.. the private sector doesn't see ANYMORE... so the private sector has lost benefits over the years... that isn't a LEO and it's benefits problem, that is a private sector problem. And only NON union private sectors can be fired at anytime for any reason. Yet people are against unions, and don't understand why unions are important. Not to mention the right to work laws that many states have. That again has nothing to do with LEO's.. I agree that their are laws and such that protect police officers that should not be there, as well their union contracts, but that is a completely different argument, and is not tied to their salary.

 

[fskimospy]

Because of cost of living etc.. not because of what It's citizens median income is. you are confusing metrics. (see next part)

All wages are paid by the public. either via taxation or a via the economy thru how they spend their money. You have it opposite. Yes, Cost of living is very much tied to how much someone makes (I said that), which the average of all income levels determines median income. Median income does not determine people's income at all (people's income is what determines median income). It is mostly tied to living costs and the economy in that area, and what the employers are willing to pay vs what they can charge for their services. Places with higher cost of living (hire prices) tend to pay higher salaries. Those higher salaries contribute to the median income calculation. But those salaries are not determined by that median income calculation. Since Police officers (any public service) really isn't a service that they charge for, it's controlled by the budget.

Median income and cost of living are very closely associated for reasons that should be obvious. Regardless, as all public salaries must be paid for by tax dollars from the citizens, median income and salaries of public officials will always be closely related. There's simply no escaping this.

not when the median household income is severely low compared to living costs and such. Which again makes your argument "police should be poor because everyone else is poor". You are basically saying that because New York City has a lot of low income/minimum wage earners or low median income in comparison to cost of living, police should also be low wage earners and suffer the same. That just doesn't make sense.

Huh? I'm saying someone making $90k in NYC is not poor. Source: has lived in NYC making both more than and less than $90k. The police here are paid very well!

I don't now shit? You are arguing points I already stated, just worded different. Military pension is based off rank when you retire. Not age.. AKA if the military was a civilian job, it would be based off of your job classification/level at that time, again not age. The longer past the 20 year mark, the more ranks they earn (ranks are tied to time in service)

I don't know what to tell you other than you definitely don't know shit. Military pensions under the system anyone with 20 years currently would retire off of are based off of exactly two things: three highest years of base pay at time of retirement and years of service. While your base pay is certainly related to your rank, it is not the only determinant and there's definitely no guarantee as you spend more time in service your rank will increase past E-4 or O-3, respectively.

As far as military pensions not being based off age, that's what I already said - it's one of the very few jobs along with police where your pension is not age related.

There is no pension that is equal to your working wage, not as a civilian, not as a government worker. Even police officers pension that you are arguing about is only 50% at 20 years. it increases by 2% for every year after that 20 year mark, with a maximum of 74% of their base wage.. This is not based off age either, it's based off time of service.. You are proving your own argument to be false.

I think you are confused and don't understand the difference between military pensions and police pensions. Police pensions are usually based off total compensation (even overtime!), while military pensions are based on base pay, and in the military base pay can be as little as around half of your actual paycheck due to housing allowances, food allowances, sea pay, etc. (when I was an E-5 it was about half my check) So, if you have a policeman and a navy guy both making $100k, the police pension is based off the $100k, while the navy pension is based off maybe $60-70k. See how big a difference that is??

Why are you repeating back what I already told you about pensions that are tied to retirement age and not years of service? you have ignored what I already told you. My brother (plumber/construction) .. myself (Aerospace manufacturing) , family and friends.. yes there are pensions that are tied to age.. but not the majority.

The majority of pensions are most certainly tied to age in that they usually have a minimum retirement age and below a certain age if you retire you get a decreased benefit. Police are some of the few exceptions to this, but the idea that a majority of pensions are not related to age at retirement is just factually false.

If you need more examples let me know. For example, every teacher in a pension system in the US.

It would be roughly 50% of your base income at that time, just like police pensions are calculated, which is no where near zero.

No. Most pension plans simply wouldn't allow anyone at 40 to collect at all. If they did allow them to collect the benefit would be massively reduced.

You keep throwing out associates degree, which tells me you have been brain washed like many in this country that believe education level is what should determine income level. That is so wrong on so many levels, but it is one of the reason we have such an income inequality problem in this country.

Whether or not I believe income should be tied to education level is irrelevant. What is relevant is that in the world we live in today, it is. There are very few jobs that pay as highly as police that have such low educational requirements. This is a fact.

If you believe it's a sweet job, why are you not a cop? Every job has it's good points and it's bad points.. Police officers are no different.

I have a much better job than being a cop, haha. Regardless, being a police officer is an incredibly sweet deal.

 

[NWRMidnight]

I'd like to see some links to all these private industry pensions that offer full benefits at 40. I've never seen or heard of anything close to that in the private sector. Maybe in a few extremely physical industries, or something like sports, but that is definitionally not the norm for private companies and I doubt it is anything more than an extremely rare occurrence.

The at 40 is an arbitrary number. it was thrown out based on starting at the age of 20 and working 20 years at the same company. The actual argument is about pensions that allow you to draw full pension after 20 years. Not so much as the age.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Wait.. the private sector doesn't see ANYMORE... so the private sector has lost benefits over the years... that isn't a LEO and it's benefits problem, that is a private sector problem. And only NON union private sectors can be fired at anytime for any reason. Yet people are against unions, and don't understand why unions are important. Not to mention the right to work laws that many states have. That again has nothing to do with LEO's.. I agree that their are laws and such that protect police officers that should not be there, as well their union contracts, but that is a completely different argument, and is not tied to their salary.

Umm, their salary is tied to the area like anyone else's.

I'm for unions most of the time. the LEO union, IMO, will be the last union standing. The LEO's in the example make 3x minimum wage and have fantastic retirement plans. Their compensation is not the problem, it's their accountability mainly, the protection for their bad behavior.

 

[fskimospy]

The at 40 is an arbitrary number. it was thrown out based on starting at the age of 20 and working 20 years at the same company. The actual argument is about pensions that allow you to draw full pension after 20 years. Not so much as the age.

Can you provide us with examples of pensions that let you draw full benefits after 20 years of service, regardless of age? As he mentioned there might be some outside of the public safety sector like professional athletes, but they are quite rare. In the overwhelming majority of pension systems age is a primary determining factor.

 

[MrSquished]

I think you are confused and don't understand the difference between military pensions and police pensions. Police pensions are usually based off total compensation (even overtime!), while military pensions are based on base pay, and in the military base pay can be as little as around half of your actual paycheck due to housing allowances, food allowances, sea pay, etc. (when I was an E-5 it was about half my check) So, if you have a policeman and a navy guy both making $100k, the police pension is based off the $100k, while the navy pension is based off maybe $60-70k. See how big a difference that is??

This is a big problem in certain areas, including NJ. These cops base their pension on say the last x years of their career, so they put in insane overtime during those couple years, and voila, now their pension is through the roof and they are living high on the hog. It's nuts.

 

[fskimospy]

This is a big problem in certain areas, including NJ. These cops base their pension on say the last x years of their career, so they put in insane overtime during those couple years, and voila, now their pension is through the roof and they are living high on the hog. It's nuts.

Yes, newer pension tiers have put in measures to reduce this, things like no year's compensation can count as more than 110% of the prior year. You're right those protections weren't always there though and it made already cushy pensions even more so.

I've worked on union negotiations in the past and in doing so read through some of the old pension systems and the benefits were just bonkers.

 

[Vic]

Imagine if you went to a restaurant, and the server screwed up your order, and the person next to you said that you couldn't send it back because that would mean that you must hate the server personally.
That's how stupid the people who are against police accountability sound like when they say that wanting police accountability means you must hate police officers personally.
I don't hate any police officers. I just want a little quality control. Like everyone else has on their job. Except that when the rest of us fuck up on the job, nobody gets pepper-sprayed, beaten, unjustly imprisoned, or killed. And if being held accountable on the job is too stressful for someone, then maybe they need to find another job.

 

[NWRMidnight]

Median income and cost of living are very closely associated for reasons that should be obvious. Regardless, as all public salaries must be paid for by tax dollars from the citizens, median income and salaries of public officials will always be closely related. There's simply no escaping this.

How is median income calculated? Median income is only tied to cost of living because the soul metric to determine that value is income, which is directly tied to cost of living. Cost of living is directly associated to costs of goods and services. Goods and services are affected by inflation and other factors. (non of which are median income). You are trying to say the result of the very metric used for calculating median income, is what determines that metric.. talk about having the cart before the horse, or the chicken before the egg.

Huh? I'm saying someone making $90k in NYC is not poor. Source: has lived in NYC making both more than and less than $90k. The police here are paid very well!

The median income in New York city if it's a household with 2 people is equivalent to them both having minimum wage jobs ($31k + $31k = $62k) that does not equate to police being paid very well. That equates to New York Citizens being paid poorly. Police making $90k equates to a police officer being able to support it's family on one income. If being able to support your family on one income is considered being paid well, so be it. But in reality it just shows how bad the income inequality is in this nation. Where the majority of the New Yorkers (same for the majority of the nations) are severely under paid.

I don't know what to tell you other than you definitely don't know shit. Military pensions under the system anyone with 20 years currently would retire off of are based off of exactly two things: three highest years of base pay at time of retirement and years of service. While your base pay is certainly related to your rank, it is not the only determinant and there's definitely no guarantee as you spend more time in service your rank will increase past E-4 or O-3, respectively.

Just as there is not guarantee in the real world you will advance either.. your are arguing semantics.

As far as military pensions not being based off age, that's what I already said - it's one of the very few jobs along with police where your pension is not age related.

You said that no other government job would allow retirement at 20 years.. I brought up the military as one example out of many that disproves that statement. So now you have went to No other government job that allows that to , the military is one of the few...

I think you are confused and don't understand the difference between military pensions and police pensions. Police pensions are usually based off total compensation (even overtime!), while military pensions are based on base pay, and in the military base pay can be as little as around half of your actual paycheck due to housing allowances, food allowances, sea pay, etc. (when I was an E-5 it was about half my check) So, if you have a policeman and a navy guy both making $100k, the police pension is based off the $100k, while the navy pension is based off maybe $60-70k. See how big a difference that is??

Police pensions are based off base pay, they do not include over time or other compensation. Every contract I have seen (all though is just my local contracts for the most part, do not include overtime or any other benefits in pension calculations) Just like the military. But thanks for explaining to me what I already knew from my time served in the military, where I received such allowances because I lived off base. if you live on base, you do not get house allowances. Also retired military get free medical/dental, base and commissary access, etc. You are again arguing semantics.

The majority of pensions are most certainly tied to age in that they usually have a minimum retirement age and below a certain age if you retire you get a decreased benefit. Police are some of the few exceptions to this, but the idea that a majority of pensions are not related to age at retirement is just factually false.

As I already stated, not from my experience. Career differences? I don't know.

If you need more examples let me know. For example, every teacher in a pension system in the US.

Yep, they have that type of pension program. They also only require a minimum of 10 years of service, not 20 years of service. Majority of pensions that allow you to retire after 20 years of service and receive full pensions, require 20 years of service minimum.

No. Most pension plans simply wouldn't allow anyone at 40 to collect at all. If they did allow them to collect the benefit would be massively reduced.

You keep saying this, and you keep ignoring that I have already given personal examples of that not being true. My brother could have retired at the age of 46 with his full pension if he wanted to.. (that is after 20 years as a Union Plumber). People can retire after 20 years in my profession with full pension. (Aerospace manufacturing) But we are union.. so well.. Unions and contractors mean something.

Whether or not I believe income should be tied to education level is irrelevant. What is relevant is that in the world we live in today, it is. There are very few jobs that pay as highly as police that have such low educational requirements. This is a fact.

LOL! Dude, you keep arguing that for only requiring an associates degree, they get paid very well.. so how can you argue that and then claim your belief is irrelevant? You brought that argument up! Just because the world emphasizes income on education level doesn't make it right.

There are many occupations that pay better than $90k that only require a high school diploma. Some do require trade school or apprentice ships, but that is teaching you an actual trade and skills you will actually use. Unlike most collage degrees.

I have a much better job than being a cop, haha. Regardless, being a police officer is an incredibly sweet deal.

Glad you like your job and think it's better.. I think your opinion of it being a sweet deal is full of a lot of assumptions.. But each to there own. I think it's time to get off this subject as we have taken up enough time OT.[/quote]

 

[Aikouka]

I'm a bit mixed on this. Overall, I think the cops screwed up, and even considering the circumstances, they acted way out of line. Although, I find it hard to not place some blame on the driver for not following instructions. It was like watching a video of a kid that just keeps asking "why?" whenever you tell them to do something. Oh, and I'm really not a fan of when servicemen drop their service in some manner suggesting special treatment. "Is this how you treat someone that serves?" To be frank, they shouldn't treat you any different from the guy running the gas station that you're stopped at. Ultimately, yes, the driver was wrong for not cooperating, but the officers (well, really the one officer) escalated the situation in what came across as a petty manner (the repeated spraying).

As an aside, I can say that I'm glad that we had proper footage of this event. I don't know if we'll see all the police reform that we'd like to get in the country, but one thing that I'd like to see is pushing for universal use of body cameras. ...and I'm sure this one would get a lot of stink eyes from police unions, but I'd like to see qualified immunity gone if body cameras were not properly in use.

 

[fskimospy]

How is median income calculated? Median income is only tied to cost of living because the soul metric to determine that value is income, which is directly tied to cost of living. Cost of living is directly associated to costs of goods and services. Goods and services are affected by inflation and other factors. (non of which are median income). You are trying to say the result of the very metric used for calculating median income, is what determines that metric.. talk about having the cart before the horse, or the chicken before the egg.

The median income in New York city if it's a household with 2 people is equivalent to them both having minimum wage jobs ($31k + $31k = $62k) that does not equate to police being paid very well. That equates to New York Citizens being paid poorly. Police making $90k equates to a police officer being able to support it's family on one income. If being able to support your family on one income is considered being paid well, so be it. But in reality it just shows how bad the income inequality is in this nation. Where the majority of the New Yorkers (same for the majority of the nations) are severely under paid.

I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to argue in the first paragraph but I'm sorry, if you're trying to say something other than what civil servants is paid is heavily dependent on the median income for the area you don't know what you're talking about.

Yes, I think in America today though being able to support a family on one income is considered a well paid job.

Just as there is not guarantee in the real world you will advance either.. your are arguing semantics.

You said that no other government job would allow retirement at 20 years.. I brought up the military as one example out of many that disproves that statement. So now you have went to No other government job that allows that to , the military is one of the few...

Police pensions are based off base pay, they do not include over time or other compensation. Every contract I have seen (all though is just my local contracts for the most part, do not include overtime or any other benefits in pension calculations) Just like the military. But thanks for explaining to me what I already knew from my time served in the military, where I received such allowances because I lived off base. if you live on base, you do not get house allowances. Also retired military get free medical/dental, base and commissary access, etc. You are again arguing semantics.

Okay but hopefully you understand you're factually wrong here. Overtime is most certainly included in a lot of pensions, like that of the NYPD, for example.

As city worker OT surges, so does pressure on pensions

With pensions costs slated to reach $10 billion annually, an expense that represents about 11 percent of the city's total budget and about 35 percent of the city's payroll, what kind of checks and balances does the city have in place to ensure city employees are not abusing overtime and pension...

www.silive.com

I clearly did not tell you things you already knew about military pensions as you said a bunch of things that were just wrong. The fact that military pension is based off a fraction of earnings while police pensions are not is a highly relevant fact and you know it.

Yep, they have that type of pension program. They also only require a minimum of 10 years of service, not 20 years of service. Majority of pensions that allow you to retire after 20 years of service and receive full pensions, require 20 years of service minimum.

No, they don't. For example the NYPD pension requires only 10 years of service to be vested and that change was recent. In the not too distant past they only required 5 years of service.

You just don't know what you're talking about.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycppf/downloads/pdf/tier_3_spd.pdf

You keep saying this, and you keep ignoring that I have already given personal examples of that not being true. My brother could have retired at the age of 46 with his full pension if he wanted to.. (that is after 20 years as a Union Plumber). People can retire after 20 years in my profession with full pension. (Aerospace manufacturing) But we are union.. so well.. Unions and contractors mean something.

While I don't know the specifics of your union I am very comfortable with saying the vast majority of individuals covered by a pension cannot retire after 20 years, regardless of age and without reduction in benefits. Maybe you're in an information bubble where that's normal, but it's not.

LOL! Dude, you keep arguing that for only requiring an associates degree, they get paid very well.. so how can you argue that and then claim your belief is irrelevant? You brought that argument up! Just because the world emphasizes income on education level doesn't make it right.

Because whether its good or bad isn't relevant, it's a fact.

There are many occupations that pay better than $90k that only require a high school diploma. Some do require trade school or apprentice ships, but that is teaching you an actual trade and skills you will actually use. Unlike most collage degrees.

There are also many occupations that require a degree, that should have a higher income, but are paid just above minimum wage. Which goes to show that there are income fluctuations good/bad in all occupations.

Glad you like your job and think it's better.. I think your opinion of it being a sweet deal is full of a lot of assumptions.. But each to there own. I think it's time to get off this subject as we have taken up enough time OT.

Maybe they should pay better, but they don't. As the world exists today police are paid very well as compared to the average american and have benefits that are off the charts.

 

[Vic]

How well police get paid depends on their individual role, their seniority, and the jurisdiction they work for. With most of the emphasis on the latter. Individual pay can range from a green town cop in the South making as little as $15/hr to a senior LA Sheriffs deputy making $250k+ w/OT (while double-dipping early retirement benefits of $100k)/yr.
The police in the video probably make just shy of $100k/yr with an attractive state public employees benefits package.

 

[Zorba]

Are you calling sanctioned work thru the department as "side gigs" ?

Sorry, roughnecks do not make $15 an hour. Bottom of the scale is $20 an hour (40k a year).. they make as much as $150k+ a year. And that is in Wyoming, who has the lowest cost of living in the nations. (I use to live in Wyoming when I was younger, my other brother spent 20 years+ working the oil rigs there).

So with roughnecks it's okay to include bonuses and OT, but not police? Even at $20 that is much less than Police, and the pay is higher in Wyoming and the Dakotas because they have to get people to move up there for it.

And yes, providing mall security in your uniform, police cruiser, and using your employee rank is a sanctioned side gig that basically no other career could get away with.

 

[Zorba]

The at 40 is an arbitrary number. it was thrown out based on starting at the age of 20 and working 20 years at the same company. The actual argument is about pensions that allow you to draw full pension after 20 years. Not so much as the age.

Link it up. I've never seen it in the private sector. Lowest age I've ever seen for allowing pension draw is 55.

Noticed you said your aerospace manufacturing. I've been at major aerospace companies most of my career. I've never seen a pension that didn't have a minimum age. Most no longer even offer pensions for new employees, including Boeing's IAM.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Lets cut through all the BULL SHIT !! It does not matter what these cops wewre paid or where they were living! None of the above BULL SHIT that is trying to change the narrative is applicable! Regardless of pay the cops were totally wrong !!! No charges against this military service member!!
Felony stop -- BULL SHIT!! Just another excuse to harass and endanger a black mans life!! These cops picked the wrong black man! Had he not been in uniform........there is a chance they might have gotten away with their crap! Stop making excuses for the Police!@! A bad cop is a bad cop!! No matter their education level or their paygrade......see how that works!!

 

[brycejones]

Link it up. I've never seen it in the private sector. Lowest age I've ever seen for allowing pension draw is 55.

Noticed you said your aerospace manufacturing. I've been at major aerospace companies most of my career. I've never seen a pension that didn't have a minimum age. Most no longer even offer pensions for new employees, including Boeing's IAM.

When my previous employer had a pension plan we had a 75 rule. Basically if your years of service + age added up to 75 you could retire early.

 

[NWRMidnight]

I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to argue in the first paragraph but I'm sorry, if you're trying to say something other than what civil servants is paid is heavily dependent on the median income for the area you don't know what you're talking about.

You don't under stand what I am saying, yet you say I don't know what I am talking about. That is comical.

Lets me put it visually using a simple averages equations (yes it's different than a median equation, but demonstrates the point).

(30+50+70+90+150+250)/6 = 106.66

You are trying to say that the number in bold is derived from the answer that is underlined. That is factually false.

Police income is based off national averages and cost of living, just like most occupations. Then all income levels in an area re used to calculate the median income. That median income does not determine those salaries. The median income will change based on cost of living but that is only because incomes change due to the cost of living.
All median income statistic does is give a value to average income in that area. It does not dictate those salaries, be it civilian employment or civil employment.

Yes, I think in America today though being able to support a family on one income is considered a well paid job.

The majority of all occupations at the bare minimum should be able to support a family, specially one such as a police officer. That doesn't equate to being to being paid well. You keep using examples that only show how bad the income inequality has gone since the 60s that has nothing to do with police salary. That just highlights the problem we have in this country.

Okay but hopefully you understand you're factually wrong here. Overtime is most certainly included in a lot of pensions, like that of the NYPD, for example.

As city worker OT surges, so does pressure on pensions

With pensions costs slated to reach $10 billion annually, an expense that represents about 11 percent of the city's total budget and about 35 percent of the city's payroll, what kind of checks and balances does the city have in place to ensure city employees are not abusing overtime and pension...

www.silive.com

Maybe in New York, but that is not the norm around the country.

I clearly did not tell you things you already knew about military pensions as you said a bunch of things that were just wrong. The fact that military pension is based off a fraction of earnings while police pensions are not is a highly relevant fact and you know it.

If you say so. Doesn't make you correct.

No, they don't. For example the NYPD pension requires only 10 years of service to be vested and that change was recent. In the not too distant past they only required 5 years of service.

You just don't know what you're talking about.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycppf/downloads/pdf/tier_3_spd.pdf

Vesting doesn't mean what you think it means. Being Vested doesn't equal getting a pension. Vesting only protects the account balance. It has nothing to do with receiving a pension. That is dependent on time served. If a person leaves or gets terminated before reaching the minimum time in service to receive the pension, yet they are vested, they get the full balance that is in their retirement account paid to them with their last pay check or sent from the investment firm that handles the pension. But their is no pension, nor is it the same value as what the pension would pay them if they fulfilled the time served, as most pensions are tied to investments.

Per the IRS:
“Vesting” in a retirement plan means ownership. This means that each employee will vest, or own, a certain percentage of their account in the plan each year. An employee who is 100% vested in his or her account balance owns 100% of it and the employer cannot forfeit, or take it back, for any reason. Amounts that are not vested may be forfeited by employees when they are paid their account balance (for example, when the employee terminates employment) or when they don’t work more than 500 hours in a year for five years.

Employee contributions
An employee's own contributions to the plan (for example, employee elective deferrals deducted from salary) are always 100% vested, or owned, by the employee.

While I don't know the specifics of your union I am very comfortable with saying the vast majority of individuals covered by a pension cannot retire after 20 years, regardless of age and without reduction in benefits. Maybe you're in an information bubble where that's normal, but it's not.
Because whether its good or bad isn't relevant, it's a fact.
Maybe they should pay better, but they don't. As the world exists today police are paid very well as compared to the average american and have benefits that are off the charts.

Go back to my original link. Police are not paid well. ($32k to $105K) that is not being paid well. Benefits are great, I will give you that, but so are mine.

 

[Zorba]

When my previous employer had a pension plan we had a 75 rule. Basically if your years of service + age added up to 75 you could retire early.

So if you started at 20, that would be 47.5 and 27.5 years of service.

I had forgotten about those types of rules. Most still get you into your 50s unless you started very young

 

[brycejones]

So if you started at 20, that would be 47.5 and 27.5 years of service.

I had forgotten about those types of rules. Most still get you into your 50s unless you started very young

If I had stayed I would have it when I was 48. But the canned the pension and stopped accrual a long time before then. I think if I had taken it when I could it was going to be like $200 a month.

 

[Zorba]

If I had stayed I would have it when I was 48. But the canned the pension and stopped accrual a long time before then. I think if I had taken it when I could it was going to be like $200 a month.

Yeah, that's the bigger point, not only do cops have very generous pensions, they still have pensions when mst don't. Those pensions are worth a fortune, so just looking at their decent base pay really doesn't tell the story.

 

[NWRMidnight]

So with roughnecks it's okay to include bonuses and OT, but not police? Even at $20 that is much less than Police, and the pay is higher in Wyoming and the Dakotas because they have to get people to move up there for it.

And yes, providing mall security in your uniform, police cruiser, and using your employee rank is a sanctioned side gig that basically no other career could get away with.

I don't know where you live, but I think you are confusing security companies vehicles that look very similar to police cruisers but are not. Police do drive thru mall parking lots, and other businesses as that is part of their normal on the job duty for safety and neighborhood security. I have never seen an actual police officer provide actual security at any mall in their official police uniform. I have seen Mall cops with their uniforms that appear to be police uniforms when in fact they are not. But, I don't live where you live. Maybe the mall their has a contract with the city.

The $20 an hour did not include bonuses or OT. I have another brother who spent 20 years working the Wyoming oilfields. I also lived in Wyoming when I was younger. The nature of the work is why the wages are higher, not because they need to get people to move there.

Link it up. I've never seen it in the private sector. Lowest age I've ever seen for allowing pension draw is 55.

Noticed you said your aerospace manufacturing. I've been at major aerospace companies most of my career. I've never seen a pension that didn't have a minimum age. Most no longer even offer pensions for new employees, including Boeing's IAM.

Most pension plans are not public. Hard to link stuff up that isn't in the public domain to do so.

Boeing lost their pension in their last contract (I want to say late 2019, or 2020 but I am not 100% on that), yet the employees voted for the contract after Boeing dangled a nice signing bonus in front of them like a carrot. They have also been having a lot of serious issues which has cost them financially. The 737 max is a prime example. I am sure things like that play a large roll in it as well.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Yeah, that's the bigger point, not only do cops have very generous pensions, they still have pensions when mst don't. Those pensions are worth a fortune, so just looking at their decent base pay really doesn't tell the story.

Corporate America had it's day. I still visit some places where I show up in business casual attire, and one dude always says "I remember when you guys used to wear suits". I know he's just reminiscing, but I like to reply "that's when healthcare for your family a benefit". Imagine how many suits I could buy with 1000+ month that healthcare costs.

 

[Mai72]

If we are on the topic of pensions here is a 7-part series with Robert Kiyosaki on the pension time bomb.

I don't really care for Robert Kiyosaki that much. I wanted to listen to Ted Siedel who is a Wallstreet whistle blower and has won millions because he has called out Wallstreet for robbing the pension system from honest hardworking Americans. Ted is very direct when he's talking with police and fire unions. He tells them to not rely on the pension system because of the financial trouble its in. In Kentucky, the pension system there went solvent. The police and fire fighters there are suing Wallstreet for unnecessary fees. The truth is there is nothing left, so their medical benefits have been cut. Ted said that they were left with .20 cents on every dollar. I know that in NJ we are .30-40 cents on every dollar. The backup funds to the pension system is also expected to go bankrupt in 5 years. On top of that we are going to witness millions and millions of baby boomers who are going to be retiring within the next 10 years. The average 401k of a 65 year old is $60k which is a whole other story. Americans aren't putting away enough money for retirement. The pension system won't be able to sustain millions of retires who are going to live for another 20-30 years into retirement. The burden will be tremoundous. The solution will be to a) increase taxes on everyone. YAY! More taxes. b) take out medical, and possibly reduce the payments to retirees.

They also go briefly about a UPS driver in upstate NewYork who had his pension stolen right from under him. He was exepecting to retire iwith about $5k a month. Some wallstreet millionaire hedgefundge guy was overseeing the UPS pension funds. It became such an issue that the state took over the funds, and the UPS driver was left with only $1k a month. He is currently not able to retire andf must still work. Wallstreet stole most of his pension. IMO, Wallstreet owns America. There is nothing that will happen to any hedgefund manager today. They just have too much power, and very little oversight. And, it's just another example how financial education is crucial, and to not rely on the government, or anyone else. It's our responsibility.

 

[Zorba]

I don't know where you live, but I think you are confusing security companies vehicles that look very similar to police cruisers but are not. Police do drive thru mall parking lots, and other businesses as that is part of their normal on the job duty for safety and neighborhood security. I have never seen an actual police officer provide actual security at any mall in their official police uniform. I have seen Mall cops with their uniforms that appear to be police uniforms when in fact they are not. But, I don't live where you live. Maybe the mall their has a contract with the city.

You've seriously never seen a police officer providing security at the private business or event, off duty? I see them everywhere, like 50 of them every time I drive on Sunday mornings provide traffic control for people leaving mega churches.

They pay off duty cops at my local Six Flags to hang out near the entrances. Best Buy and Walmart has off duty police on site every black friday.

Off-Duty Oakland Cops Hired to Patrol Big Retailers Hard-Hit by Thieves

Some stores in Oakland are paying upwards of $100 per hour for off-duty police officers to provide security after crime rates spiked in the past few months.

sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com

Hire Off Duty Police Officers in Dallas Texas

First Responder Protective Services provides off duty police officers for hire in Dallas, Texas. Hire off-duty police officers for security at your business or event.

firstresponderprotectiveservices.com

The $20 an hour did not include bonuses or OT. I have another brother who spent 20 years working the Wyoming oilfields. I also lived in Wyoming when I was younger. The nature of the work is why the wages are higher, not because they need to get people to move there.

The $20/hour didn't but you also said "Up to 150K/yr" which sure as hell includes bonuses and OT. I know a lot of people that have moved up for there working oil for the higher wages. They pay more up there because there is more work than labor, has nothing to do with the job being harder, except that the toughness of the job lowers the pool of able and willing employees.

Most pension plans are not public. Hard to link stuff up that isn't in the public domain to do so.

I'm sure if 20 year pensions were at all common you could find some general articles about it.

Boeing lost their pension in their last contract (I want to say late 2019, or 2020 but I am not 100% on that), yet the employees voted for the contract after Boeing dangled a nice signing bonus in front of them like a carrot. They have also been having a lot of serious issues which has cost them financially. The 737 max is a prime example. I am sure things like that play a large roll in it as well.

I'm just saying, the types of pensions police get are not at all common in the aerospace industry either, contrary to what you said. Most companies have gotten rid of them, frozen them, or stopped letting new people enroll in them. Still none of the ones I've see allow full retirement regardless of age.

 

[fskimospy]

You don't under stand what I am saying, yet you say I don't know what I am talking about. That is comical.

Lets me put it visually using a simple averages equations (yes it's different than a median equation, but demonstrates the point).

(30+50+70+90+150+250)/6 = 106.66

You are trying to say that the number in bold is derived from the answer that is underlined. That is factually false.

Police income is based off national averages and cost of living, just like most occupations. Then all income levels in an area re used to calculate the median income. That median income does not determine those salaries. The median income will change based on cost of living but that is only because incomes change due to the cost of living.
All median income statistic does is give a value to average income in that area. It does not dictate those salaries, be it civilian employment or civil employment.

I'm sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about, haha. To see how this is nonsense, just look at your own arguments from before. You are saying that the median salary in new york doesn't cover the cost of living so most people in New York are poor. If salaries were determined by cost of living, that wouldn't be the case.

A->B. This is not complicated. Salaries are based off of lots of things, but public service salaries come from tax dollars, and higher median incomes usually mean more tax dollars available.

The majority of all occupations at the bare minimum should be able to support a family, specially one such as a police officer. That doesn't equate to being to being paid well. You keep using examples that only show how bad the income inequality has gone since the 60s that has nothing to do with police salary. That just highlights the problem we have in this country.

]Maybe in New York, but that is not the norm around the country.

If you say so. Doesn't make you correct.

What is your basis for saying overtime not contributing to pension payments is the norm?

Vesting doesn't mean what you think it means. Being Vested doesn't equal getting a pension. Vesting only protects the account balance. It has nothing to do with receiving a pension. That is dependent on time served. If a person leaves or gets terminated before reaching the minimum time in service to receive the pension, yet they are vested, they get the full balance that is in their retirement account paid to them with their last pay check or sent from the investment firm that handles the pension. But their is no pension, nor is it the same value as what the pension would pay them if they fulfilled the time served, as most pensions are tied to investments.

That is not what 'vesting' means in regards to the SPD I linked to you. Vesting in this regard means becoming eligible for retirement benefits. If you read the SPD you will see it clearly states this.

Go back to my original link. Police are not paid well. ($32k to $105K) that is not being paid well. Benefits are great, I will give you that, but so are mine.

I bet if we asked the average American if a job that only required an associate's degree and paid $90k before overtime was being paid well the vast majority would say yes.