Discussion What do you think of this Police encounter?

[ewdotson]

I will be honest here, I would have gotten out of the car when they said too.

And how would you have unlocked your car and removed your seatbelt while simultaneously keeping your hands outside the window?

 

[Amol S.]

And how would you have unlocked your car and removed your seatbelt while simultaneously keeping your hands outside the window?

I would not have kept it outside the window. I would have open the door, and then put my hands up.

 

[nOOky]

Not being a POC looking down the barrel of a gun pointed at me being held by a shaking Barney Fife I'm not sure if I wouldn't be frozen in fear and pissing myself. Probably a better than average chance if you reach down you're just dead.

 

[fskimospy]

I would not have kept it outside the window. I would have open the door, and then put my hands up.

So you would have disobeyed police orders?

 

[HomerJS]

I will be honest here, I would have gotten out of the car when they said too.

Per my example if you are black and comply you still get shot. What are our options?

 

[fskimospy]

Per my example if you are black and comply you still get shot. What are our options?

I think most people haven’t thought this through. Two cops are pointing guns at you and screaming death threats. Are you really going to reach over to unbuckle your seatbelt, something that could be easily mistaken for reaching for a gun or whatever?

I am frankly surprised this guy survived the event. He only did so because he was utterly calm and because he conspicuously avoided giving these psychos any excuse to shoot him.

 

[ewdotson]

I mean, see the exchange at ~2:55 in the video:

Lt - "I'm honestly afraid to get out"
Police - "Yeah, you should be!"

 

[brycejones]

I would not have kept it outside the window. I would have open the door, and then put my hands up.

And then you would have been shot dead.

 

[pete6032]

So you would have disobeyed police orders?

I think they gave him conflicting orders - put your hands up where I can see them but also get out of the car. Can't do both.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Not being a POC looking down the barrel of a gun pointed at me being held by a shaking Barney Fife I'm not sure if I wouldn't be frozen in fear and pissing myself.

Barney Fife:

Buford T. Justice

Windsor dude looks more like the latter.

 

[KMFJD]

cops are many things but underpaid is not one of them

 

[Homerboy]

If we can (just for a second) take the color of the skin out of the equation (though it is a HUGE portion of the equation overall) all these incidents show time and time again that we either need better vetting and/or more substantial training for police officers, or we need to remove some of their power. Clearly many are not trained or even capable of handling the power that has been bestowed upon them so something has to be done to either get better candidates for the job, train them better OR remove their ability to kill/harm/maim on impulse. The system of the Police is entirely broken.

Now, toss on top of that racism etc and it's infinitely worse.

 

[brycejones]

If we can (just for a second) take the color of the skin out of the equation (though it is a HUGE portion of the equation overall) all these incidents show time and time again that we either need better vetting and/or more substantial training for police officers, or we need to remove some of their power. Clearly many are not trained or even capable of handling the power that has been bestowed upon them so something has to be done to either get better candidates for the job, train them better OR remove their ability to kill/harm/maim on impulse. The system of the Police is entirely broken.

Now, toss on top of that racism etc and it's infinitely worse.

100% regardless of race no aspect of this encounter is acceptable. You would think people would be able to look at it from that perspective instead of shit like @railer who called the driver a "race baiter" without pointing out how he was doing that. I guess being black is enough for railer to call someone a race baiter.

 

[NWRMidnight]

Good luck with finding a pensioned position below executive level or even outside of government for that matter. Retirement after 20 years is government only afaik. Add in the facts that USA workforce has had stagnant wages as well as reduce 401k matching means non government employees are work likely to work til they're dead.

I have already given examples outside of government in my previous comment.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I have already given examples outside of government in my previous comment.

And? Afaict, government employment includes what the private sector considers unreasonable benefits.

LEO's get some pretty sweet deals that the private sector rarely sees anymore. That's all there is to it. And they're protected from fucking up while the private sector can fire anyone for anything, anytime.

 

[ewdotson]

I have already given examples outside of government in my previous comment.

The key is that your examples were union jobs, which is a category only 6.3% of private sector jobs fall into.

(To be clear, my point is pro-union here, not anti-people-getting-pensions.)

 

[Zorba]

Sorry but I have to disagree with being over paid, over benefitted.

Here’s How Much Money Police Officers Earn In Every State

Find out where police officers in the earn most money in the U.S., and where their wages are lacking.

www.forbes.com

The article doesn't say anything about benefits or overtime.

Base pay in OKC is 56.7 - 64.9k, which is good money in OKC. I'm guessing the stats quoted are heavily skewed by small towns.

I have lived here in Washington for 36 years, and I can't speak for anyone else but myself when it come to income and what is considered doing fine or not. My income is fine for my life style. I have no clue about anyone else financial situation, obligations or life style. I think you are being presumptuous if you believe you can speak for anyone else outside of yourself. To buy a home in New York City, it takes an minimum income of $100k today. Now sure how making $90k qualifies as doing fine, if you can't even qualify to buy a house.

It doesn't matter what degree is required. It's sad that we have come to the point that people believe that a degree should dictate one's income level. That is one reason why there is such a large income inequity in this country, and it is backwards and wrong way of thinking. But that is a completely different discussion.

As for pensions, that may be your experience, but it isn't mine. My brother who is now 56 has been able to retire for the past 10 years if he wanted to (Union Plumber) with his full pension. My job, which is also union, I can retire at 20 years with full pension. The only thing that increase the amount is the more years I put in beyond 20, not my age. I have family and friends who started collecting full pensions in their early 50's. Some are working on a second pension.

I've worked at three major companies with a pension, all of them had an age for full retirement benefits, usually 62 or 63. All didn't allow any benefits before 55 and those would be massively reduced.

ETA: In addition to their good base pay, they get $1800/yr for uniforms, 900-2100/yr in education incentive pay, and up to 2600/yr for bilingual pay. Before any other benefits, OT, etc they are making above median income for OKC.

 

[Zorba]

Sorry but I have to disagree with being over paid, over benefitted.

Here’s How Much Money Police Officers Earn In Every State

Find out where police officers in the earn most money in the U.S., and where their wages are lacking.

www.forbes.com

Bullshit! See above link. If you have to include over time to pad the numbers to fit the argument that they make a lot of money, than you lost the argument before you even look at the link I supplied. (take note that their salaries are directly linked to cost of living)

Also tell me any other job that allows it's employees to use their equipment and status for side gigs?

Lots of jobs are paid like shit when looking at base pay only; OT, side gigs, bonuses, and benefits are all part of the package. Roughnecks make like $15/hr base pay, far harder and more dangerous than being a cop.

 

[Zorba]

If we can (just for a second) take the color of the skin out of the equation (though it is a HUGE portion of the equation overall) all these incidents show time and time again that we either need better vetting and/or more substantial training for police officers, or we need to remove some of their power. Clearly many are not trained or even capable of handling the power that has been bestowed upon them so something has to be done to either get better candidates for the job, train them better OR remove their ability to kill/harm/maim on impulse. The system of the Police is entirely broken.

Now, toss on top of that racism etc and it's infinitely worse.

It also seems like it's the veterans that do a lot of this crazy shit. I personally think that comes from years of zero accountability, and every year they get more and more brazen.

 

[brycejones]

It also seems like it's the veterans that do a lot of this crazy shit. I personally think that comes from years of zero accountability, and every year they get more and more brazen.

I have a feeling they also dehumanize those they are dealing with a bit more each year.

 

[NWRMidnight]

Uhmmmm, this is emphatically untrue. Have you ever wondered why software engineers in India make less than those in America?

Because of cost of living etc.. not because of what It's citizens median income is. you are confusing metrics. (see next part)

How is tying the salary of public servants to the salary of those paying that public servant arbitrary? It is the opposite, and the cost of living in an area and what people make in it are closely tied together.

All wages are paid by the public. either via taxation or a via the economy thru how they spend their money. You have it opposite. Yes, Cost of living is very much tied to how much someone makes (I said that), which the average of all income levels determines median income. Median income does not determine people's income at all (people's income is what determines median income). It is mostly tied to living costs and the economy in that area, and what the employers are willing to pay vs what they can charge for their services. Places with higher cost of living (hire prices) tend to pay higher salaries. Those higher salaries contribute to the median income calculation. But those salaries are not determined by that median income calculation. Since Police officers (any public service) really isn't a service that they charge for, it's mainly controlled by the budget.

I didn’t say $90k was rich, but by any reasonable standard one person earning ~150% of the median household income (which is often two earners) for a region is paid quite well.

not when the median household income is severely low compared to living costs and such. Which again makes your argument "police should be poor because everyone else is poor". You are basically saying that because New York City has a lot of low income/minimum wage earners or low median income in comparison to cost of living, police should also be low wage earners and suffer the same. That just doesn't make sense.

Also, as someone who has lived in a studio apartment in NYC your idea of what a studio in NYC costs is ludicrous. Perhaps that’s the average cost, but it’s being pulled way up by crazy high rents in Manhattan. You can find studios for almost half that price. (I just looked!) {/quote]

It is the average cost of New York City, which is what I said. just like we are using the median income.. it's an average of all levels.. It's the only proper way to compare things. But you want to argue that the police make great wages based off median income, Yet want to argue that they can find cheaper rent than the average, aka live in lower quality housing. well hello.. not shit! But that argument supports that police do not make a great living if they appear to be on the higher side of the median income calculations, yet they can't even afford the average cost of an apartment, so they have to rent on the lower side of that average, which is usually lower standards of housing.


/quote] Maybe giving everyone a pension after 20 years would be right, but it’s not remotely close to what we as a country do. It’s basically police and firefighters. Your example of the military tells me you don’t actually know how this works, because the military pension is shit after 20 years. (It’s based on base pay, which can be as little as half your take home salary)

I don't now shit? You are arguing points are things I already stated, just worded different. Military pension is based off rank when you retire. Not age.. AKA if the military was a civilian job, it would be based off of your job classification/level at that time, again not age. The longer past the 20 year mark, the more ranks they earn (ranks are tied to time in service) There is no pension that is equal to your working wage, not as a civilian, not as a government worker. Even police officers pension that you are arguing about is only 50% at 20 years. it increases by 2% for every year after that 20 year mark, with a maximum of 74% of their base wage.. This is not based off age either, it's based off time of service.. You are proving your own argument to be false.

As far as what a pension would be at 40, most non-police pension systems are similar to social security in that they have an age then consider ‘full retirement age’ and payments decrease each year prior to that. See here:

Service Retirement Benefits | NYSTRS Benefit Eligibility | NYSTRS

Most members will receive a service retirement benefit upon completion of their public service career. See if you meet the NYSTRS eligibility requirements.

www.nystrs.org

Why are you repeating back what I already told you about pensions that are tied to retirement age and not years of service? you have ignored what I already told you. My brother (plumber/construction) .. myself (Aerospace manufacturing) , family and friends careers they are/where in, non tied to retirement age. yes there are pensions that are tied to retirement age, and that is the federal minimum allowed if a pension is offered, but that doesn't mean it is the only way.

Most would not even let you retire at 40 but even if you could by this formula your payments would be near zero.

It would be roughly 50% of your base income at that time, just like police pensions are calculated, which is no where near zero.

So in the end yes, for a job that only requires an associates degree police are paid very well, and their pension benefits are ludicrously generous. It’s a sweet job!

You keep throwing out associates degree, which tells me you have been brain washed like many in this country that believe education level is what should determine income level. That is so wrong on so many levels, but it is one of the reason we have such an income inequality problem in this country. If you believe it's a sweet job, why are you not a cop? Every job has it's good points and it's bad points.. Police officers are no different.

 

[NWRMidnight]

100% regardless of race no aspect of this encounter is acceptable. You would think people would be able to look at it from that perspective instead of shit like @railer who called the driver a "race baiter" without pointing out how he was doing that. I guess being black is enough for railer to call someone a race baiter.

I don't think race initially had anything to do with the beginning of the stop. It may have played a part in what transpired after the officer saw he was black. But, as for the LT's actions, race played a part for himself from the start.. That is why his very first reaction was to put his hands outside the window from the beginning. As a white man, putting my hands out of the windows from the start would never be my reaction. His primary reaction wasn't thinking "what did I do" it was "what do I do to keep from being harmed". That in itself is the sad reality of the problem we have in this country. Every person should be thinking "what did I do" rather than having to think "what do I do to keep from being harmed".

 

[NWRMidnight]

I would not have kept it outside the window. I would have open the door, and then put my hands up.

You wouldn't have had time to finish reaching in much less open the door and put your hands up because you would have most likely been shot.

 

[Zorba]

Because of cost of living etc.. not because of what It's citizens median income is. you are confusing metrics. (see next part)



All wages are paid by the public. either via taxation or a via the economy thru how they spend their money. You have it opposite. Yes, Cost of living is very much tied to how much someone makes (I said that), which the average of all income levels determines median income. Median income does not determine people's income at all (people's income is what determines median income). It is mostly tied to living costs and the economy in that area, and what the employers are willing to pay vs what they can charge for their services. Places with higher cost of living (hire prices) tend to pay higher salaries. Those higher salaries contribute to the median income calculation. But those salaries are not determined by that median income calculation. Since Police officers (any public service) really isn't a service that they charge for, it's mainly controlled by the budget.


not when the median household income is severely low compared to living costs and such. Which again makes your argument "police should be poor because everyone else is poor". You are basically saying that because New York City has a lot of low income/minimum wage earners or low median income in comparison to cost of living, police should also be low wage earners and suffer the same. That just doesn't make sense.


I don't now shit? You are arguing points are things I already stated, just worded different. Military pension is based off rank when you retire. Not age.. AKA if the military was a civilian job, it would be based off of your job classification/level at that time, again not age. The longer past the 20 year mark, the more ranks they earn (ranks are tied to time in service) There is no pension that is equal to your working wage, not as a civilian, not as a government worker. Even police officers pension that you are arguing about is only 50% at 20 years. it increases by 2% for every year after that 20 year mark, with a maximum of 74% of their base wage.. This is not based off age either, it's based off time of service.. You are proving your own argument to be false.

Why are you repeating back what I already told you about pensions that are tied to retirement age and not years of service? you have ignored what I already told you. My brother (plumber/construction) .. myself (Aerospace manufacturing) , family and friends careers they are/where in, non tied to retirement age. yes there are pensions that are tied to retirement age, and that is the federal minimum allowed if a pension is offered, but that doesn't mean it is the only way.

It would be roughly 50% of your base income at that time, just like police pensions are calculated, which is no where near zero.

You keep throwing out associates degree, which tells me you have been brain washed like many in this country that believe education level is what should determine income level. That is so wrong on so many levels, but it is one of the reason we have such an income inequality problem in this country. If you believe it's a sweet job, why are you not a cop? Every job has it's good points and it's bad points.. Police officers are no different.

I'd like to see some links to all these private industry pensions that offer full benefits at 40. I've never seen or heard of anything close to that in the private sector. Maybe in a few extremely physical industries, or something like sports, but that is definitionally not the norm for private companies and I doubt it is anything more than an extremely rare occurrence.

 

[NWRMidnight]

Also tell me any other job that allows it's employees to use their equipment and status for side gigs?

Lots of jobs are paid like shit when looking at base pay only; OT, side gigs, bonuses, and benefits are all part of the package. Roughnecks make like $15/hr base pay, far harder and more dangerous than being a cop.

Are you calling sanctioned work thru the department as "side gigs" ?

Sorry, roughnecks do not make $15 an hour. Bottom of the scale is $20 an hour (40k a year).. they make as much as $150k+ a year. And that is in Wyoming, who has the lowest cost of living in the nations. (I use to live in Wyoming when I was younger, my other brother spent 20 years+ working the oil rigs there).