What do you think are the minimal entitlements Americans should receive?

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theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: senseamp
AC and Healthcare. That is all.

I'm going to guess that shelter is included with A/C unless you want to just have a massive A/C program. What about food stamps? Retirement payments (social security)? You know you want those in your list. ;)

I want AC in the middle of the desert. Just to piss you off.

If that's the only reason you want it then it doesn't piss me off.

Well, that, and in case a farm worker is lost in the middle of the desert, they'll have a refreshing breeze of cold air when they walk past the AC unit, assuming they walk past the cold side.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Let's see if I can put this out and not get too personal... not sure how.. the point must be made I guess...

I am the Representative payee for a person totally disabled under the rules of Social Security. Prior to the recognition of this status the person worked as best they could earning at least the required 'quarters' of Social Security payment in order to qualify for disability.

This person receives two checks from the US Treasury... one for SDI and the other for SSI... the latter is funded by the State for the most part. Together this person receives $871. They also receive Medicare and Rx etc under that program.

Now then. They live in California. Do you think that is a lot of money to exist on? Can this person afford Rent, Utilities, other life essentials like Food and maybe the odd roll of toilet paper? I can assure you they cannot.

They are disabled but still a human and still a citizen and you know what amazes me.. this person is so thankful they get what little they get and daily thanks the folks who pay the taxes that provide it. Not once complains about the folks who have lots of assets... A real person with out a bit of resentment...

Remember, it is not all that remote that any of us can be in the shoes of the folks who try to be a full member of society but physically fell short...
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Let's see if I can put this out and not get too personal... not sure how.. the point must be made I guess...

I am the Representative payee for a person totally disabled under the rules of Social Security. Prior to the recognition of this status the person worked as best they could earning at least the required 'quarters' of Social Security payment in order to qualify for disability.

This person receives two checks from the US Treasury... one for SDI and the other for SSI... the latter is funded by the State for the most part. Together this person receives $871. They also receive Medicare and Rx etc under that program.

Now then. They live in California. Do you think that is a lot of money to exist on? Can this person afford Rent, Utilities, other life essentials like Food and maybe the odd roll of toilet paper? I can assure you they cannot.

They are disabled but still a human and still a citizen and you know what amazes me.. this person is so thankful they get what little they get and daily thanks the folks who pay the taxes that provide it. Not once complains about the folks who have lots of assets... A real person with out a bit of resentment...

Remember, it is not all that remote that any of us can be in the shoes of the folks who try to be a full member of society but physically fell short...

I'm confused. Was the only reason this person stopped working because they got on disability? Sounds like he/she was able to work. Does this person have any family?
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: senseamp
AC and Healthcare. That is all.

I'm going to guess that shelter is included with A/C unless you want to just have a massive A/C program. What about food stamps? Retirement payments (social security)? You know you want those in your list. ;)

I want AC in the middle of the desert. Just to piss you off.

If that's the only reason you want it then it doesn't piss me off.

Well, that, and in case a farm worker is lost in the middle of the desert, they'll have a refreshing breeze of cold air when they walk past the AC unit, assuming they walk past the cold side.

Well then I want four AC units on a post so that all directions will be cool.
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Let's see if I can put this out and not get too personal... not sure how.. the point must be made I guess...

I am the Representative payee for a person totally disabled under the rules of Social Security. Prior to the recognition of this status the person worked as best they could earning at least the required 'quarters' of Social Security payment in order to qualify for disability.

This person receives two checks from the US Treasury... one for SDI and the other for SSI... the latter is funded by the State for the most part. Together this person receives $871. They also receive Medicare and Rx etc under that program.

Now then. They live in California. Do you think that is a lot of money to exist on? Can this person afford Rent, Utilities, other life essentials like Food and maybe the odd roll of toilet paper? I can assure you they cannot.

They are disabled but still a human and still a citizen and you know what amazes me.. this person is so thankful they get what little they get and daily thanks the folks who pay the taxes that provide it. Not once complains about the folks who have lots of assets... A real person with out a bit of resentment...

Remember, it is not all that remote that any of us can be in the shoes of the folks who try to be a full member of society but physically fell short...

I really love this post LunarRay, because it shows the real need for a society to take care of its own and how we should be thankful to receive as to give assistance.

We all have our times of need.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: senseamp
AC and Healthcare. That is all.

I'm going to guess that shelter is included with A/C unless you want to just have a massive A/C program. What about food stamps? Retirement payments (social security)? You know you want those in your list. ;)

I want AC in the middle of the desert. Just to piss you off.

If that's the only reason you want it then it doesn't piss me off.

Well, that, and in case a farm worker is lost in the middle of the desert, they'll have a refreshing breeze of cold air when they walk past the AC unit, assuming they walk past the cold side.

Well then I want four AC units on a post so that all directions will be cool.

You have to check if Senseamp is "cool" with everyone having it or if he just wants migrant workers to have it.
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Let's see if I can put this out and not get too personal... not sure how.. the point must be made I guess...

I am the Representative payee for a person totally disabled under the rules of Social Security. Prior to the recognition of this status the person worked as best they could earning at least the required 'quarters' of Social Security payment in order to qualify for disability.

This person receives two checks from the US Treasury... one for SDI and the other for SSI... the latter is funded by the State for the most part. Together this person receives $871. They also receive Medicare and Rx etc under that program.

Now then. They live in California. Do you think that is a lot of money to exist on? Can this person afford Rent, Utilities, other life essentials like Food and maybe the odd roll of toilet paper? I can assure you they cannot.

They are disabled but still a human and still a citizen and you know what amazes me.. this person is so thankful they get what little they get and daily thanks the folks who pay the taxes that provide it. Not once complains about the folks who have lots of assets... A real person with out a bit of resentment...

Remember, it is not all that remote that any of us can be in the shoes of the folks who try to be a full member of society but physically fell short...

I'm confused. Was the only reason this person stopped working because they got on disability? Sounds like he/she was able to work. Does this person have any family?

You can't get disability without being in lapse of SGA for a year, so in most cases without work for a year.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Let's see if I can put this out and not get too personal... not sure how.. the point must be made I guess...

I am the Representative payee for a person totally disabled under the rules of Social Security. Prior to the recognition of this status the person worked as best they could earning at least the required 'quarters' of Social Security payment in order to qualify for disability.

This person receives two checks from the US Treasury... one for SDI and the other for SSI... the latter is funded by the State for the most part. Together this person receives $871. They also receive Medicare and Rx etc under that program.

Now then. They live in California. Do you think that is a lot of money to exist on? Can this person afford Rent, Utilities, other life essentials like Food and maybe the odd roll of toilet paper? I can assure you they cannot.

They are disabled but still a human and still a citizen and you know what amazes me.. this person is so thankful they get what little they get and daily thanks the folks who pay the taxes that provide it. Not once complains about the folks who have lots of assets... A real person with out a bit of resentment...

Remember, it is not all that remote that any of us can be in the shoes of the folks who try to be a full member of society but physically fell short...

I'm confused. Was the only reason this person stopped working because they got on disability? Sounds like he/she was able to work. Does this person have any family?

The person became totally disabled while working ... progressive disease..
Yes the person has family.. however, for every dollar given to this person by anyone for the purpose of food shelter or the like she is reduced by a dollar... That is the way SSI works..
EDIT: to be clear... SSI (the State paid - for the most part - portion) in this case is the larger of the two... $541... ergo, let's say I wanted to help... and could afford to give 541$ a month to this person... The net rec'd by this person would be 0$. I could, however, give a cell phone and some other 'types' of gifts like a tv.. that is ok.. and not deductable...
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Let's see if I can put this out and not get too personal... not sure how.. the point must be made I guess...

I am the Representative payee for a person totally disabled under the rules of Social Security. Prior to the recognition of this status the person worked as best they could earning at least the required 'quarters' of Social Security payment in order to qualify for disability.

This person receives two checks from the US Treasury... one for SDI and the other for SSI... the latter is funded by the State for the most part. Together this person receives $871. They also receive Medicare and Rx etc under that program.

Now then. They live in California. Do you think that is a lot of money to exist on? Can this person afford Rent, Utilities, other life essentials like Food and maybe the odd roll of toilet paper? I can assure you they cannot.

They are disabled but still a human and still a citizen and you know what amazes me.. this person is so thankful they get what little they get and daily thanks the folks who pay the taxes that provide it. Not once complains about the folks who have lots of assets... A real person with out a bit of resentment...

Remember, it is not all that remote that any of us can be in the shoes of the folks who try to be a full member of society but physically fell short...

I'm confused. Was the only reason this person stopped working because they got on disability? Sounds like he/she was able to work. Does this person have any family?

You can't get disability without being in lapse of SGA for a year, so in most cases without work for a year.

This is true. But, you are retro'd the funds to the date of filing... you can borrow to make ends meet as is the case here.. and pay the borrowings back when you get the retro active payment(s).
You cannot own a car valued over $2000 or the excess is deducted.. (As if you could afford the gas/insurance/upkeep etc.) so essentially you must use the bus... to go where you've no money to go anyhow.. so you're stuck in the four walls for the most part and walk or get around as best you can to feed the birds if you can. Watch the tv if you have someone to provide it... Not easy... not at all..

EDIT: Your point, however, is that you have to be disabled and wait a year to start the SDI program... I presume so that the term "totally and completely disabled for any work what so ever" can apply with assurance..
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Let's see if I can put this out and not get too personal... not sure how.. the point must be made I guess...

I am the Representative payee for a person totally disabled under the rules of Social Security. Prior to the recognition of this status the person worked as best they could earning at least the required 'quarters' of Social Security payment in order to qualify for disability.

This person receives two checks from the US Treasury... one for SDI and the other for SSI... the latter is funded by the State for the most part. Together this person receives $871. They also receive Medicare and Rx etc under that program.

Now then. They live in California. Do you think that is a lot of money to exist on? Can this person afford Rent, Utilities, other life essentials like Food and maybe the odd roll of toilet paper? I can assure you they cannot.

They are disabled but still a human and still a citizen and you know what amazes me.. this person is so thankful they get what little they get and daily thanks the folks who pay the taxes that provide it. Not once complains about the folks who have lots of assets... A real person with out a bit of resentment...

Remember, it is not all that remote that any of us can be in the shoes of the folks who try to be a full member of society but physically fell short...

I'm confused. Was the only reason this person stopped working because they got on disability? Sounds like he/she was able to work. Does this person have any family?

You can't get disability without being in lapse of SGA for a year, so in most cases without work for a year.

This is true. But, you are retro'd the funds to the date of filing... you can borrow to make ends meet as is the case here.. and pay the borrowings back when you get the retro active payment(s).
You cannot own a car valued over $2000 or the excess is deducted.. (As if you could afford the gas/insurance/upkeep etc.) so essentially you must use the bus... to go where you've no money to go anyhow.. so you're stuck in the four walls for the most part and walk or get around as best you can to feed the birds if you can. Watch the tv if you have someone to provide it... Not easy... not at all..

EDIT: Your point, however, is that you have to be disabled and wait a year to start the SDI program... I presume so that the term "totally and completely disabled for any work what so ever" can apply with assurance..

Right, you get the point. :)

You are retroactively fundeed if the initial claim is won on appeal, but you can't really win an appeal on the SGA case because it is black & white in the numbers.

Disability is very hard for anything but the most life destroying diseases of them all. Someone with a disability that can knock them out of work for months at a time, year after year, is forced to suffer without any aid. I've seen it and I think that people who believe it is easy to get disability have never been through the system.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
What do you think are the minimal entitlements Americans should receive?

I believe this has already been addressed wayyy before we came along:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

it's up to you to get them.....hence....no "entitlements"
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Directv.

Otherwise the people who don't have to do anything everyday will get bored and get into trouble. At least they can watch Jerry Springer during the day.
 

themusgrat

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2005
1,408
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: senseamp
AC and Healthcare. That is all.

I'm going to guess that shelter is included with A/C unless you want to just have a massive A/C program. What about food stamps? Retirement payments (social security)? You know you want those in your list. ;)

I want AC in the middle of the desert. Just to piss you off.

If that's the only reason you want it then it doesn't piss me off.

Well, that, and in case a farm worker is lost in the middle of the desert, they'll have a refreshing breeze of cold air when they walk past the AC unit, assuming they walk past the cold side.

My A/C backbone!!!! Damn gobberment, gimme my 72 degrees house!!! My AC is broken, and instead of getting it fixed I'm calling the gobberment to fix it!!! Also I'm entitled to a cell phone, credit card, internet, and good cable TV. Otherwise, how could I be American? HOW I ASK YOU????? And if I'm from the South, I'll also need a 12 gauge with a hunting lease over 400 acres. I'll take this any day, gobberment.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
According to the constitution:
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

How one reads the phrase 'promote the general welfare' is a matter of interpretation not fact. Or even a matter of one's personal outlook and political beliefs. There are those who fell that an improvement in the live of the population helps the society and country. Providing basic coverage, the ability to eat and access to basic health care, for example, for all is one way to promote general welfare. The Govt can be in the business of providing retirement and health care benefits.

Few things say "I'm an idiot!" more clearly than citing to the Preamble of the Constitution as authority for a specific gov't power. Make that same argument in any federal court in the land, and the bench would laugh itself silly right before issuing a summary judgment against you.

Well, one of those few things that says it even better has to be someone who gets it so wrong while attacking others as idiots.

The basic mistake - and by that, I mean it's basic, not that I'm summarizing - you make is confusing the concept of the policy/ideology/purpose with the law.

You don't go to *court* to argue the purpose of government as an idea - but you do discuss the purpose of government as a matter of policy.

The thread wasn't about 'what would happen in a case in court', it was about the purpose of government - and the preamble of the Constitutionis is relevant to that topic.

The post to which I responded was in fact itself a response to a challenge to the federal gov't's authority to provide insurance. I merely edited it out to avoid too many nested quotes. There's no confusion on my part.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
A chicken in every garage

I suppose Eggs would be welcome as would the soup... but the garage... Ah.. I get it... instead of a car or other form of transportation... you'd allow a chicken to be ummmmm Well... just what is the chicken for.. Little do I know... :+)

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,904
6,787
126
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
A chicken in every garage

I suppose Eggs would be welcome as would the soup... but the garage... Ah.. I get it... instead of a car or other form of transportation... you'd allow a chicken to be ummmmm Well... just what is the chicken for.. Little do I know... :+)

From the disaster in the auto industry I assumed that cars have gone to pot.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,556
13,234
136
Originally posted by: xj0hnx
People should have acces to whatever they work for. Since when is something being nescessary to live make it something that the government should just give you?

qft
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: xj0hnx
People should have acces to whatever they work for. Since when is something being nescessary to live make it something that the government should just give you?

qft

The government should guarantee us things needed to live.

It is a founding principle of this nation.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: xj0hnx
People should have acces to whatever they work for. Since when is something being nescessary to live make it something that the government should just give you?

qft

But, don't you agree that just being a citizen affords one certain fundamental rights? And don't forget YOU are the government... The folks in DC and State capital complete the Representative form of government that we have... So from you and those like you to they who cannot earn a living or one substantial enough to live via the established conduit.

 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,556
13,234
136
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: xj0hnx
People should have acces to whatever they work for. Since when is something being nescessary to live make it something that the government should just give you?

qft

But, don't you agree that just being a citizen affords one certain fundamental rights? And don't forget YOU are the government... The folks in DC and State capital complete the Representative form of government that we have... So from you and those like you to they who cannot earn a living or one substantial enough to live via the established conduit.

If I were the government, things wold be a lot different. Collectively, the people are the government in a bit of a mathematical-average way. I doubt any Rep/Senator from MD represents me perfectly, but rather roughly represents the entire state/district of his/her constituency.

IMO, the government's job is to protect the country, provide for public works (like roads and highways), and perform emergency services (police, fire, etc.). By having the government control much more (going to the far end - providing you with a car, house, etc.) it removes any incentive to be innovative and to outperform. In essence, it is promoting the status quo and mediocrity. Innovation and improvement thrive on competition. Much like Intel back in the P4 days - what need is there to make a better product if there is no one to compete with you?

With respect to things like UHC, Medicare/Medicaid, and SS, I understand the goals of these projects. However, I think they are poorly run systems, and is proven IMO by the ever-increasingly large chunks which they take from the annual federal budget. SS is soon to go bankrupt. Designed over 75 years ago, I doubt FDR had the clairvoyance to have the system adapt to the drastically changing face of the US.

I simply do not see UHC as being feasible. I see the govt tacking on way too many costs, finding few ways to cut the budget (according to the Washington Post, there are well over 370 amendments to the House Bill, yet no one wants to cut the fat, only add.), and ultimately adding yet another layer of administration and bureaucracy that's simply unnecessary. The government is anything but transparent.

Though I may be blessed with good genetics, I think there needs to be a complete change in american culture towards things like health, education, and success. We are far too eager to view problems as being external and caused by someone else. Ultimately, these are a matter of personal responsibility. If you want to be healthy, exercise and eat healthy foods. Corn is $1 for 12 cobs in this week's grocery ad, for example. Success in education comes from good parenting, which includes disciplining your child. There may be some bad teachers, but I'm willing to bet that student behavior in the classroom is far more detrimental to our current students than the quality of teachers. Success comes from educated and motivated students.

We cannot legislate our problems away. We must take responsibility for them on an individual, local, and national level.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: xj0hnx
People should have acces to whatever they work for. Since when is something being nescessary to live make it something that the government should just give you?

qft

The government should guarantee us things needed to live.

It is a founding principle of this nation.

Where the heck do you get that baloney? The federal gov't provided almost no entitlements for many years following this nation's founding. Veterans of the Revolutionary War weren't even given pensions until well into the 1800's! This nation was founded on the principle that the gov't would guarantee you the right to freely pursue the things needed to live, but wasn't guaranteed to provide them. Your attitude is why I almost never vote for Democrats anymore - we can't afford for Santa Claus to be a federal employee.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
I feel that I should be entitled to a 7-series BMW. After all, the guv'ment needs to provide for my "general welfare"! A luxury sedan would improve my "general welfare"!
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: xj0hnx
People should have acces to whatever they work for. Since when is something being nescessary to live make it something that the government should just give you?

qft

The government should guarantee us things needed to live.

It is a founding principle of this nation.

Where the heck do you get that baloney? The federal gov't provided almost no entitlements for many years following this nation's founding. Veterans of the Revolutionary War weren't even given pensions until well into the 1800's! This nation was founded on the principle that the gov't would guarantee you the right to freely pursue the things needed to live, but wasn't guaranteed to provide them. Your attitude is why I almost never vote for Democrats anymore - we can't afford for Santa Claus to be a federal employee.

Excellently stated! How in the world did the US survive for two+ centuries without the "necessary" entitlements of government-provided central air and cell phones?!
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: xj0hnx
People should have acces to whatever they work for. Since when is something being nescessary to live make it something that the government should just give you?

qft

The government should guarantee us things needed to live.

It is a founding principle of this nation.

Where the heck do you get that baloney? The federal gov't provided almost no entitlements for many years following this nation's founding. Veterans of the Revolutionary War weren't even given pensions until well into the 1800's! This nation was founded on the principle that the gov't would guarantee you the right to freely pursue the things needed to live, but wasn't guaranteed to provide them. Your attitude is why I almost never vote for Democrats anymore - we can't afford for Santa Claus to be a federal employee.

Well said. I interpret the Constitution as stating that the Federal government will create the environment for people to succeed and to pursue happiness, but it will not provide happiness itself.

With that being said and to answer the question, I don't believe any American deserves a minimum entitlement unless they have worked a certain period of time (children excluded, of course). A little earlier in the thread, a poster posted an idea regarding when an American would "earn" an entitlement based on the number of years in the workforce. I had never really considered that approach before and honestly, I kind of like the idea that you earn access to certain entitlements/benefits based on the number of years you've worked and hence, paid taxes.