True, but the question was "completely clean source of power." No such animal yet. Even horses have to poop. In other words, A/C leads to pollution. Period. Argue cost/benefit ratios if you like, but you can't refute that fact.
Back on topic:
Minimal entitlements: Police protection, military protection, equitable courts for resolving disputes.
One can argue public goods as well, although I don't agree with them all.
I've also become more open to arguments for safety regulations.
I find it quite puzzling that many people feel entitled to take my money and spend it, when nothing is preventing them from spending their own money instead.
Circlenaut
Platinum Member
- Mar 22, 2001
- 2,175
- 5
- 81
I'll take a stab at this:
Universal health care for all. No one should have to pay a dime to be healthy. It's in the best interest of society to maintain its population as health as possible. Switch to a computerized system to decrease the administrative cost as much as possible. Contracts with hospitals/providers are negotiated annually at a price point that keeps the industry competitive.
Universal education for all for any kind of public education. Eliminate in-state/out-of-state tuition rates. Public schools are funded federally. Public tuition rates are based on the county's level of income and are negotiated annually. If you are accepted into an university, it's at no cost. If you choose to attend private university then you are given a voucher equal to a comparable public education.
Institute a national digital ID system. Employment requires this card. This card is scanned at the time of employment at a government office. Once employment is tightly controlled by the government then give amnesty to all illegal immigrants in the country. Future illegal immigrants would be unable to find legitimate work.
Government is fully transparent. There is absolutely no secrecy and any citizen/organization has the right to audit any government agency.
All politicians are declared "Public Citizens" while in office and loss all rights to privacy.
Personal Income is capped at the 90th percentile. A person earning more would choose to either give that money to their business or the government
People will abuse the system, that's inevitable, we can only try to minimize it.
As to the word entitlement. I firmly believe that every citizen is entitled to anything that betters themselves. This in turn betters society which eventually gives its citizens better entitlements.
This is not a troll post, this is seriously what I believe in. Americans are too "independent" socially and fiscally, we have to acknowledge that we depend on other people and in turn the government.
/ Socialist
// Massachusetts Resident
/// Wants the government to check out how I'm doing every once in a while
//// You libertarians really piss the hell out of me whenever I dip my eyes in P & N. It's like you guys want to have a lonely existence.
Universal health care for all. No one should have to pay a dime to be healthy. It's in the best interest of society to maintain its population as health as possible. Switch to a computerized system to decrease the administrative cost as much as possible. Contracts with hospitals/providers are negotiated annually at a price point that keeps the industry competitive.
Universal education for all for any kind of public education. Eliminate in-state/out-of-state tuition rates. Public schools are funded federally. Public tuition rates are based on the county's level of income and are negotiated annually. If you are accepted into an university, it's at no cost. If you choose to attend private university then you are given a voucher equal to a comparable public education.
Institute a national digital ID system. Employment requires this card. This card is scanned at the time of employment at a government office. Once employment is tightly controlled by the government then give amnesty to all illegal immigrants in the country. Future illegal immigrants would be unable to find legitimate work.
Government is fully transparent. There is absolutely no secrecy and any citizen/organization has the right to audit any government agency.
All politicians are declared "Public Citizens" while in office and loss all rights to privacy.
Personal Income is capped at the 90th percentile. A person earning more would choose to either give that money to their business or the government
People will abuse the system, that's inevitable, we can only try to minimize it.
As to the word entitlement. I firmly believe that every citizen is entitled to anything that betters themselves. This in turn betters society which eventually gives its citizens better entitlements.
This is not a troll post, this is seriously what I believe in. Americans are too "independent" socially and fiscally, we have to acknowledge that we depend on other people and in turn the government.
/ Socialist
// Massachusetts Resident
/// Wants the government to check out how I'm doing every once in a while
//// You libertarians really piss the hell out of me whenever I dip my eyes in P & N. It's like you guys want to have a lonely existence.
Originally posted by: Mursilis
This is why areas like the Middle East and most of Africa were simply unpopulated prior to the invention of air conditioning!
The black plague went untreated a while ago, too. Guess we should stick to that policy.
We have some bizarre extremist ideology going on here.
MovingTarget
Diamond Member
- Jun 22, 2003
- 9,002
- 115
- 106
Perhaps for the elderly it should be... When a heatwave comes, air conditioning is a necessity for survival especially in the southern parts of the country. For those young and healthy, not so much.
Well, one of those few things that says it even better has to be someone who gets it so wrong while attacking others as idiots.
The basic mistake - and by that, I mean it's basic, not that I'm summarizing - you make is confusing the concept of the policy/ideology/purpose with the law.
You don't go to *court* to argue the purpose of government as an idea - but you do discuss the purpose of government as a matter of policy.
The thread wasn't about 'what would happen in a case in court', it was about the purpose of government - and the preamble of the Constitutionis is relevant to that topic.
Another victim/promoter of the bizarre ideology that people are just entities who have to serve society, not with any value themselves.
So you measure housewives only by the dollar involved, without any common sense or human values.
It's imbecilic, really, but does go to show how we can arrive at some terrible policies.
The economy should serve the people, not the other way around.
I think your approach to the issue is wrongheaded - that there's not some abosolute list of entitlements, but rather just judgements at any given time what's a good idea.
Should Americans be 'entitled' to the preservation of the natural beauty of Yosemite? You won't find it in the constutition, but it's a good idea people choose to do.
Should Americans be 'entitled' to the pleasure of the Smithsonian Institution? You won't find it in the constitution, but it's a good idea the public has chosen to do.
And of people think that the discomfort of heat makes providing air conditioning for a group of people is a good idea, that's all that's needed, not some ideological doctrine.
That's pretty retarded. The people of America should be doing those things, not the government. If you look at the Smithsonian and Yosemite, they didn't start out as massive government projects, it was just a few people that wanted things to be preserved, and the government said fine, we'll recognize that. In no way are those entitlements, because they could also be taken away from us and there's nothing we could really do to stop it.
With air conditioning, it's the same way. The government COULD promise every American a life with an average indoor temperature of 75, but nobody feels entitled to that. Same with health care. The government sure CAN do UHC, but in no way is it this entitlement that the left is trying to make it out to be. Ok, a minimal level of protection against unforeseeable events, I can see that being in the "promote the general welfare" as stated before. But the government really has no obligation to give people braces, and people have no right, whether natural or inborn or given, to expect their braces. Or white teeth. Or any number of other things that the people of America should be left to see to for themselves.
What's needed is health care reform, not give-me-free-health-care. Right now, you're able to scare people with horror stories, I wish they'd make a southpark episode out of that actually, it would be good.
Do you see how retarded this is? Alot of times, when you put things into their extremes, it can help you to see the validity of a situation. Now if you want to say that nobody should be left to die in this country, I will agree with you. But the answer to some people getting screwed over by insurance, or not having coverage at all, or having to pay exorbitant fees for simple little things, is not free-for-all. It's reform.
If there was a sudden movement in America that got started because people were pissed that other people didn't have insurance, and were more likely to drive off and leave perfectly good Americans with damage to their car that they had to pay themselves, would the next logical step be for the government to run all auto insurance? Anyways there's no really good real-world analogy for health care so now I run the risk of rambling. So think before you post. The government does have business ensuring that nobody dies of neglect. The government does not have business in providing people with general health care however. If that's the way we want to go, fine, but it has to work well.
Patranus
Diamond Member
- Apr 15, 2007
- 9,280
- 0
- 0
In my mind "cared for" is the wrong phrase. I believe that everyone should be offered a hand when they are in dire straights and need help but at the same time they have to show a willingness to pull themselves up by the boot straps.
My biggest problems with 'entitlements' are that once they are enacted, they are permanent and people who do not contribute to society in a positive way are able to take advantage of everyone elses hard work.
At the same time, I see no reason that some people should be working 40, 50, 60 hours of work to provide entitlements to people who are willing to go to work, do the bare minimum, and then complain they they are part of the 'have nots'.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
We should be entitled to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness..
Life depends on different individual needs, it seems to me... ergo, it is not the same for each of us at the moment nor in time.
Liberty sorta speaks for itself or does it? Yeah... I guess Liberty means lots of things depending on the situation..
ah... Pursuit of Happiness... That must mean that we each have fundamental rights that we can exercise when we want assuming no law or another's right is abridged...
In order to achieve these we must create a government to insure these rights are held sacrosanct... and from time to time create law that meets the new needs of the folks based on the simple premise that All folk are created equal...
So what might be goose for one could be gander for the next... You don't normally need air conditioning in Alaska... but you may if you have asthma... nor Food Stamps unless you're unemployed... nor even a TV unless you have electricity and signal..
Life depends on different individual needs, it seems to me... ergo, it is not the same for each of us at the moment nor in time.
Liberty sorta speaks for itself or does it? Yeah... I guess Liberty means lots of things depending on the situation..
ah... Pursuit of Happiness... That must mean that we each have fundamental rights that we can exercise when we want assuming no law or another's right is abridged...
In order to achieve these we must create a government to insure these rights are held sacrosanct... and from time to time create law that meets the new needs of the folks based on the simple premise that All folk are created equal...
So what might be goose for one could be gander for the next... You don't normally need air conditioning in Alaska... but you may if you have asthma... nor Food Stamps unless you're unemployed... nor even a TV unless you have electricity and signal..
"entitlements" should be based on proven need IMO. People such as the physically or mentally handicapped and the elderly for example who are not able to work any more. A person of sound mind and body deserves very little government help IMO. One must note that when a person makes a decision to work they have to think the benefits of working outweigh those of not working. This means if you offer them too much for nto working then they have no incentive to ever work. Making unemployment more miserable encourages more people to work. I do like the idea of "unlocking" benefits though. For example if you have worked for a year you can get 4 weeks of unemployment benefits (I believe it does work something like this IRL right?), then maybe if you have work 10 years and never been unemployed you can get up to 20 weeks or something off in case there is a problem finding a job.
A BIG part of this is also the fact that the government needs to be smart with its money. It is OK to run a deficit during a poor economic time if you match it with a surplus during the good times. Unfortunately our government runs a defect EVERY year, it just gets worse when the economy is bad. One might note by looking at history how long the average amount of time is that a country stays on top of the world stage. 100 years is pretty much the maximum except for the "Pax Romana" where Rome was rocking it for 200 years. It should be expected by most Americans my age (under 25) that the chance of this country being at the top of world affairs our whole life is unlikely. Staying on top has to be EARNED with blood sweat and tears just like it took to get us where we are today (WWII and Cold War).
A BIG part of this is also the fact that the government needs to be smart with its money. It is OK to run a deficit during a poor economic time if you match it with a surplus during the good times. Unfortunately our government runs a defect EVERY year, it just gets worse when the economy is bad. One might note by looking at history how long the average amount of time is that a country stays on top of the world stage. 100 years is pretty much the maximum except for the "Pax Romana" where Rome was rocking it for 200 years. It should be expected by most Americans my age (under 25) that the chance of this country being at the top of world affairs our whole life is unlikely. Staying on top has to be EARNED with blood sweat and tears just like it took to get us where we are today (WWII and Cold War).
>transportation infastructure, national defense,disaster response.
>Short term entitlement for those in need, with emphasis on get off your butt and work.
>Short term entitlement for those in need, with emphasis on get off your butt and work.
We're talking about RIGHT NOW. If you can't make a list, it's probably because it would be too long (considering you include A/C).
And we're talking about government handouts, not about rights. (I admit I probably shouldn't have included police protection in my OP because it confuses things.)
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Infohawk,
I think we are talking about rights... rights that inure to the human in general and citizen in particular. I further think these rights produce entitlements as the need arises. Some rights codified deal with the Disabled, some with the aged some with the 'down on their luck folks' and others. All, it seems to me, have a fundamental right that transcends the budget or the recession... These rights breed entitlements... or right to specific help... Most of the 'hand outs' are not specifically targeted to this or that item.. Folks often get money to use as they see fit... food stamps and medical care and Rx aside.
Don't you agree that Social Security is more of a 'hand out' than was originally intended. I figure that there is a level below which a human is no longer treated as a human... But they have the right to claim it.. They are entitled to it...
Sure. What my OP was directed at was government welfare programs. You can call them entitlements or rights (probably depending on whether you advocate them or not.) With that said, I'm trying to exclude traditional government services or rights like don't fall into the category of welfare: like the right to free speech or police protection. Most people agree the populace is "entitled" to free speech and police protection. What is usually debated in modern society is the welfare stuff.
I'm going to guess that shelter is included with A/C unless you want to just have a massive A/C program. What about food stamps? Retirement payments (social security)? You know you want those in your list.
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
- 6,198
- 126
Originally posted by: Infohawk
I'm going to guess that shelter is included with A/C unless you want to just have a massive A/C program. What about food stamps? Retirement payments (social security)? You know you want those in your list.
I want AC in the middle of the desert. Just to piss you off.
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Infohawk
I'm going to guess that shelter is included with A/C unless you want to just have a massive A/C program. What about food stamps? Retirement payments (social security)? You know you want those in your list.
I want AC in the middle of the desert. Just to piss you off.
If that's the only reason you want it then it doesn't piss me off.
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