I could be wrong since I'm not a Muslim or a Hindu, but I'm not aware that Allah and Shiva ever appeared on earth in human form.
Jesus performed miracles, claimed to be God, and rose from the dead. That makes him a pretty unique figure.
I could be wrong since I'm not a Muslim or a Hindu, but I'm not aware that Allah and Shiva ever appeared on earth in human form.
Jesus performed miracles, claimed to be God, and rose from the dead. That makes him a pretty unique figure.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
I'll also point out that many of these so called "atheist" authors are anything but. There have been numerous accounts of Christians posing as something else that were "converted" to Christianity because of whatever truth was offered there.
It's called flock mentality if memory serves me correctly. It is a deliberate attempt to invoke interest and sympathy in others they are trying to incept an ideal into. Personally I think they should call Leonardo to do the inception
It's called flock mentality if memory serves me correctly. It is a deliberate attempt to invoke interest and sympathy in others they are trying to incept an ideal into. Personally I think they should call Leonardo to do the inception
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
Wow, dense are we? How many other religions have you studied? Yes, damn near every other religion, not all though, have deity as avatars on this planet as part of their teachings.
CoinOperatedBoy
Golden Member
- Dec 11, 2008
- 1,809
- 0
- 76
Even granting for a moment that a first-hand account of a real, historical Jesus exists, I expect it would be very unlikely that it could grant any real voracity to the claims that he could perform miracles or was resurrected from the dead. In short, the core tenets of Christianity are unverifiable.
her209
No Lifer
- Oct 11, 2000
- 56,336
- 11
- 0
What part of Judeo-Christian thought told them it was OK to buy and sell people?
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
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On shiva at least.
Avatars
Shiva, like some other Hindu deities, is said to have several incarnations, known as avatars. Although Puranic scriptures contain occasional references to avatars of Shiva, the idea is not universally accepted in Saivism.[163]
* Adi Shankara, the 8th-century philosopher of non-dualist Vedanta"Advaita Vedanta", was named "Shankara" after Lord Shiva and is considered by some to have been an incarnation of Shiva.[164]
* In the Hanuman Chalisa, Hanuman is identified as the eleventh avatar of Shiva, but this belief is not universal.[165]
* Virabhadra who was born when Shiva grabbed a lock of his matted hair and dashed it to the ground. Virabhadra then destroyed Daksha's yajna (fire sacrifice) and severed his head as per Shiva's instructions.[166]
Avatars
Shiva, like some other Hindu deities, is said to have several incarnations, known as avatars. Although Puranic scriptures contain occasional references to avatars of Shiva, the idea is not universally accepted in Saivism.[163]
* Adi Shankara, the 8th-century philosopher of non-dualist Vedanta"Advaita Vedanta", was named "Shankara" after Lord Shiva and is considered by some to have been an incarnation of Shiva.[164]
* In the Hanuman Chalisa, Hanuman is identified as the eleventh avatar of Shiva, but this belief is not universal.[165]
* Virabhadra who was born when Shiva grabbed a lock of his matted hair and dashed it to the ground. Virabhadra then destroyed Daksha's yajna (fire sacrifice) and severed his head as per Shiva's instructions.[166]
Cerpin Taxt
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 11,940
- 542
- 126
I'm saying that the SCOTUS decides what is or is not a Constitutional right. They ruled on abortion, and decided that it is. You can think that they are wrong, but it's a bit like telling a musician that he's not singing the right words to the song he wrote himself.
You said that the reason you'd vote to ban abortion is that you are against it for religious reasons. You are also against idolatry for religious reasons, yet you claim you would not vote to ban it. Obviously, then, it isn't really your religious reasons that motivate your voting choices, or at the very least, you are inconsistent.
Primarily in thinking that science has any relevance whatsoever.
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HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
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uhh why? Oh don't tell me you picked that up from Bill Maher's, Religulous, movie did you?
Yes it's proven that Christians cannibalized quite a few things from other religions but the story of Jesus =/= Mithra of Horus or other crap he listed.
CoinOperatedBoy
Golden Member
- Dec 11, 2008
- 1,809
- 0
- 76
I'm not sure why you're even engaging on this point, HumblePie. Even if the mythological Jesus were attributed superpowers not claimed by important figures from other religions, it doesn't make Christianity any more valid. A Jesus with laser beam eyes, while far cooler than what we're offered in the Bible, shouldn't lead someone to Christianity over any other belief, tempting as it may be.
SlickSnake
Diamond Member
- May 29, 2007
- 5,235
- 2
- 0
This troll topic is still unlocked? Huh, go figure...
This.
And I object to this...
http://www.godhatesfags.com/
This.
And I object to this...
http://www.godhatesfags.com/
Cerpin Taxt
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 11,940
- 542
- 126
LAWL LEE STROBEL
If Lee Strobel used to be an atheist then I used to be the Pope.
If you read the book, I don't think that you read it very carefully if that's your only take away.
The New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. Many scholars believe that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. Even if it was 100 years, as some scholars claim, in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.
Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).
Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
There's much more evidence that Jesus existed than mnay other historical figures that I doubt you'd ever consider questioning.
IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 72,351
- 32,913
- 136
I have not seen this movie. The similarities between Mithras and Jesus have been noted for some time.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
LOL agreed.
Basically I'm having a beer and enjoying the floundering of others in this thread. I've studied quite a bit of this stuff as a prior Theological student at Saint Mary's among other pursuits. There is a reason I became an atheist after I realized religions = complete bullshit.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
The problems is figuring out which ideas came from whom and when. Even then it's only certain aspects which are shared such as the virgin birth of a deity and resurrection. Everything else is quite different
LAWL LEE STROBEL
If Lee Strobel used to be an atheist then I used to be the Pope.
Are there any living ex-Pope's?
http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/video.php?clip=strobelT1026
CoinOperatedBoy
Golden Member
- Dec 11, 2008
- 1,809
- 0
- 76
Unattributed copypasta from
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html
The tagline of this site is "The Bible has the answers, we'll find them for you!"
IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 72,351
- 32,913
- 136
How many pastors do you know and how many of them are wealthy? I know quite a few and I don't know any rich ones.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
PhineasJWhoopee,
LOL at your listing of what "some scholars" thought certain items in a modern bible were written at chronologically speaking. The only REAL evidence is actual old writings on papyrus. The oldest of which that has ANY reference to Yeshua is 200 years AFTER he is supposedly dead from a third hand account. That's it. There is NOTHING older than that ever found. Not one damn thing. To claim otherwise is to be lying.
The oldest known bible is 1200 years old and much found in that bible can not be traced back to previous documents as there is no record of them before that bible. There is no physical evidence to verify it against. Without that, everything is pure conjecture and claims. Much akin to a carny game of "guess my weight and age." It is just so much smoke up my ass.
To use biblical quotes of a modern bible is an even worse reference.
Again, of your "quotes" of other people, they are talking about the Christians themselves, like Pliny the Younger, hundreds of years later. Just because I make a written reference today that I met a man who believes there are purple space monsters that live on mars does not grant validity to there actually being purple space monsters living on mars.
LOL at your listing of what "some scholars" thought certain items in a modern bible were written at chronologically speaking. The only REAL evidence is actual old writings on papyrus. The oldest of which that has ANY reference to Yeshua is 200 years AFTER he is supposedly dead from a third hand account. That's it. There is NOTHING older than that ever found. Not one damn thing. To claim otherwise is to be lying.
The oldest known bible is 1200 years old and much found in that bible can not be traced back to previous documents as there is no record of them before that bible. There is no physical evidence to verify it against. Without that, everything is pure conjecture and claims. Much akin to a carny game of "guess my weight and age." It is just so much smoke up my ass.
To use biblical quotes of a modern bible is an even worse reference.
Again, of your "quotes" of other people, they are talking about the Christians themselves, like Pliny the Younger, hundreds of years later. Just because I make a written reference today that I met a man who believes there are purple space monsters that live on mars does not grant validity to there actually being purple space monsters living on mars.
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I'm sure that there are plenty of scholars that would delight in disproving the historicity of Jesus. The fact of the matter is that the scholarly mainstream not only rejects the myth thesis,but identifies serious methodological deficiencies in the approach.
You're swimming upstream on this one.
The "scholarly mainstream" accepts that there is no evidence such a person ever walked the earth. There are no contemporary extrabiblical accounts of him or any of the miraculous events that supposedly surrounded his life. The bottom line is that we have no good reason to believe anyone resembling the Jesus character in your favorite book ever existed..much less that such a person performed magic and was somehow related to the creator of the universe.
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HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
WTF are you talking about??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Stupid exploding links, fixed for The God Who Was not There
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
Man, I had way more links in the last thread I had this discussion about, but I'm too lazy at the moment to search for them.
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IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 72,351
- 32,913
- 136
The money doesn't stop at pastors. There are the buildings, the real estate, the TV stations, the publishing houses, the gem mines (thank you Pat "blood diamonds" Robertson). Religion is big bucks.
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