What do you object to about Christianity?

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CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
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I can respect Deism.

[snip]

I say I can respect that, because imho it seems a more reasonable, logical approach. I personally don't even believe in that much, but with little evidence (the fun analogy of the universe as an ant-farm/sandbox for a higher being) to discredit that, I cannot say with 100% certainty there is no such higher being. Statistically, we cannot be the most advanced beings that exists, or at least has existed, in this universe. Whose to say super smart aliens don't play god to lesser creatures? Then again, that would be a false-Deity, not one that had a hand in the creation of the universe. Some other, super-crazy creature that could escape the fabric of it's own universe into the greater multiverse could, in this line of thought, be such a Deity.
But... that's just an irrelevant segue in discussion. :)

It's still utter bunk, even if it's slightly more palatable than the solipsistic notion of the personal god. There need be no evidence to discredit deism because, like the others, there is no evidence to support it. You also need not be 100% certain of deism's falsehood in order to disbelieve it for this very reason. I don't see how it is worthy of anyone's respect.

I also don't quite understand the digression about "super smart aliens" or other beings more advanced than us -- of whose existence I don't think we can be certain, even statistically, as you claim (do you have some source for this?). I hesitate to entertain multiverse theory because most of it is just murky, unfalsifiable metaphysics, even if it's fun to read.
 
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Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
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A few reasons:

1. The existence of God cannot be proven. While I might understand how some people explore the possibility of an existence of a God, I cannot understand how people have an absolute conviction in the existence of something that cannot be proven. That level of conviction is, by definition, non-rational. I find it frustrating to have a conversation with someone who won't acknowledge that their certainty (in something you cannot be certain of) is a fundamental gap between us. It's even more frustrating when that person tries to persuade me to abandon a well-reasoned understanding of the world for something with no evidence, that asks me to change my life, and has no visible benefit.

2. I can look into history and see many things done in the name of Christianity that were abhorrent things, like the Inquisition and the Crusades. I can look at the present day and see things being done in the name of Christianity that are abhorrent things, like the Waco or the potential death penalty for gays in Uganda. I think that it is reasonable to predict more abhorrent things will be done in the name of Christianity in the future and that is enough reason, in my opinion, to dismantle the institution in protection of human rights.

3. The Bible contains contradictions (Thou shalt not kill / God makes the Israealites a massive war force, love thy neighbor / put sinners out of the congregation, no difference between Jew and Gentile, slave and free, male and female / homosexuality is a sin) that indicate to me Christianity is inconsistent and that the present-day interpretation(s) are merely the most current spin on a social construct that has always been bent to fit the society it's in. I believe that the current interpretations are behind the societal curve and, given the power that Christianity has in the western world right now, that it is slowing the progress of social evolution and hurting individual people in the process.

4. I am offended by the idea that Christians have set up a narrow and arbitrary standard of who is saved and who is not saved and have marked me in a not-saved bucket simply because I don't take actions that I see as nonsensical and potentially harmful. They disregard whatever good I do in the world and instead they often abrasively accuse and threaten me. It's a very unpleasant and negative experience.

5. I witness Christians giving money to those who misuse it, giving power to those who wield it poorly, and supporting those who are hypocritical. I see that they often choose leadership poorly and vehemently and almost hysterically defend their leadership even after the leadership has been proven in scandal and a betrayal of their trust. This provides even more evidence to me that Christians are attached en masse to the idea of their religion, are operating on groupthink rather than individual critical reasoning, and that is distasteful to me and supports my original suspicion that they are clinging to the idea of a God without proof and not because of legitimate open-minded exploration and experience.

Oh, and by the way, I am a lifelong Christian, mostly in the Anglican tradition with some touches of evangelical background. I wrote my post from the perspective of a non-Christian because from that viewpoint I absolutely understand why they would dislike, distrust and disbelieve Christianity. The above are only a few examples of why.

Honestly, as a Christian, if you can't look at the history and current state of Christianity and how it interacts with the non-Christian world and FIGURE OUT why people dislike it, you are not doing nearly enough self-evaluation. The unexamined faith, where you refuse to consider it from all sides and contemplate the potential pitfalls and how you answer them, is no real faith at all.

Thank you for posting this. It's a very thoughtful perspective and quite appreciated.

Another person who's comments I appreciate lately are from Anne Rice, who said on her facebook that she is leaving Christianity.

"Today I quit being a Christian. Following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity." - Anne Rice
 

kitchiku

Senior member
Nov 6, 2009
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Christian beliefs by themselves are fundamentally good. However, starting from the time when the Church gained political power, the politicians corrupted it absolutely to the point that those who lead the church are christians in name only and church is just an organization with a christian name but devoid of any christian characteristics. This is very much evidenced in the history Roman Catholic church whose hypocrisy and bigotry knows no bounds even up to this time.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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which part do you feel sorry for me? that there is no proof humans evolved from monkeys and alge or that there is no proof that God created man?

interesting quote you have in your sig. just curious but did you know that Paine was a free mason? and you do know that in order to be a mason one has to believe in a God. So what statement are you trying to make that Paine was an atheist?

you are thick, son.

:(
 

khon

Golden Member
Jun 8, 2010
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I have no particular objection to anything in Christianity. I don't think any of it is true, but if people who to believe it, why would I care ?

I do however object to some of the things done in the name of Christianity. If you don't want an abortion or a gay marriage, then don't have one, but don't try to tell others that they can't because of your religion.
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
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I have no particular objection to anything in Christianity. I don't think any of it is true, but if people who to believe it, why would I care ?

You answered your own question:

I do however object to some of the things done in the name of Christianity. If you don't want an abortion or a gay marriage, then don't have one, but don't try to tell others that they can't because of your religion.

Christianity utterly taints the opinions and actions of those who follow it, and these can be people with power over you. It's a laughable but powerful delusion around which a large and influential group of people form their lives. That's why you should care.
 

khon

Golden Member
Jun 8, 2010
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Christianity utterly taints the opinions and actions of those who follow it, and these can be people with power over you. It's a laughable but powerful delusion around which a large and influential group of people form their lives. That's why you should care.

I disagree.

Sure there are some christians who try to assert their control over others, but I don't think that's the result of their religion, rather it's a result of their personality. If they'd had a different belief they would try the same only with other specific objectives. There are even some atheists who follow this path, and try to remove religion wherever they can.

I'm atheist not antitheist, meaning I'm without religion not against religion.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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This will surely devolve into a semantic argument. Theism might be taken to mean specifically the belief in an influential and meddlesome deity -- in which case that excludes deism -- and that's clearly what OutHouse is grasping at. In the more general sense that theism is simply belief in a god regardless of his involvement, you're certainly right that deism is a subset.

Either way, the fact that OutHouse would consider this his epic "gotcha" moment is quite telling and I think this should be his cue to bow out if he seeks to retain any dignity whatsoever.

Looks like his trolling motor might have run out of gas....
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
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I disagree.

Sure there are some christians who try to assert their control over others, but I don't think that's the result of their religion, rather it's a result of their personality. If they'd had a different belief they would try the same only with other specific objectives. There are even some atheists who follow this path, and try to remove religion wherever they can.

I'm atheist not antitheist, meaning I'm without religion not against religion.

I didn't say that Christianity makes people power hungry. I said that it taints the decision making process, and we don't want people like that in charge.
 

kitchiku

Senior member
Nov 6, 2009
277
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I didn't say that Christianity makes people power hungry. I said that it taints the decision making process, and we don't want people like that in charge.

I think you equate christianity with its organized churches. Christianity is not equal to this churches thats why with your posts you misunderstand the intention of the OP.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
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sorry but our evolutionary origins are not linked to ANYTHING other than ourselves period. there is no proof we humans evolved from anything.

just look back the past 30 years at what was taught in school. we came from monkeys, and look! here is Lucy which proves we are ancestors of ancient monkeys... Lucy is EVE!! now just last year science is leaning towards that modern man and hominids like Lucy coexisted and we arent related at all or even in the same gene pool.

so yea like i said neither side can absolutely prove their argument.

lol look a human as dumb as a monkey
 
Aug 8, 2010
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I have no particular objection to anything in Christianity. I don't think any of it is true, but if people who to believe it, why would I care ?

I do however object to some of the things done in the name of Christianity. If you don't want an abortion or a gay marriage, then don't have one, but don't try to tell others that they can't because of your religion.

There are plenty of non-religious people that oppose abortion and gay marriage.

What your basically saying is that anyone who diagrees with you should just keep their mouth shut. As long as we live in a free country that's not going to happen.
 

khon

Golden Member
Jun 8, 2010
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There are plenty of non-religious people that oppose abortion and gay marriage.

No there aren't. At least 90% of the opposition comes from christians.

What your basically saying is that anyone who diagrees with you should just keep their mouth shut. As long as we live in a free country that's not going to happen.

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that if the country is to remain free, then we can't have people trying to impose their religious beliefs on others.
 
Aug 8, 2010
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No there aren't. At least 90&#37; of the opposition comes from christians.

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that if the country is to remain free, then we can't have people trying to impose their religious beliefs on others.

Are you saying that if I believe that abortion is murder based on my religious beliefs and my understanding of biology and I avail myself of the political process to stop it, I am do something wrong?

Would you like to silence me and take away my vote. Is that the end game here?

I'm just trying to follow your logic.
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
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I think you equate christianity with its organized churches. Christianity is not equal to this churches thats why with your posts you misunderstand the intention of the OP.

I said nothing of churches, so don't mistake my message or my response to the OP. The act of belief without evidence is itself the problem, and Christianity is just one incarnation. There may be a deep taboo against criticizing personal religious beliefs, but it's a false armor that we should ignore. We need to be able to admit that faith itself is a cancer and an embarrassment. Wishy-washy notions of "Everyone is entitled to their opinion" are hollow and cowardly.
 
Aug 8, 2010
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I said nothing of churches, so don't mistake my message or my response to the OP. The act of belief without evidence is itself the problem, and Christianity is just one incarnation. There may be a deep taboo against criticizing personal religious beliefs, but it's a false armor that we should ignore. We need to be able to admit that faith itself is a cancer and an embarrassment. Wishy-washy notions of "Everyone is entitled to their opinion" are hollow and cowardly.

I disagree. There's plenty of evidence in favor of christianity. Why do you say there's no evidence?
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
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Are you saying that if I believe that abortion is murder based on my religious beliefs and my understanding of biology and I avail myself of the political process to stop it, I am do something wrong?

Would you like to silence me and take away my vote. Is that the end game here?

I'm just trying to follow your logic.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I'd like to respond: I absolutely accuse you of doing something wrong if you are making a moral judgment of any kind on the basis of your religious beliefs, especially if that judgment has a direct impact on the lives of others. I would not deny you your right to vote, but I would certainly condemn you for your reasons. Biology is another story, and through it I welcome your informed opinion.
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
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I disagree. There's plenty of evidence in favor of christianity. Why do you say there's no evidence?

I have seen literally no legitimate evidence for the divinity of the man known as Jesus Christ, nor for the miracles he was purported to have performed, nor any of the other supernatural stories of the Bible. Beyond that, the notion of an omniscient entity that oversees our lives appears to me to be completely without merit. If you have evidence, produce it.
 

khon

Golden Member
Jun 8, 2010
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Are you saying that if I believe that abortion is murder based on my religious beliefs (...) and I avail myself of the political process to stop it, I am do something wrong?

Yes.

There's a reason it was ruled a fundemental right under the US constitution, and for you to try to take away others rights based on your religion is wrong.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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Are you saying that if I believe that abortion is murder based on my religious beliefs and my understanding of biology and I avail myself of the political process to stop it, I am do something wrong?

Would you like to silence me and take away my vote. Is that the end game here?

I'm just trying to follow your logic.

My take on this is, even though you may think you are making that opinion on the grounds of other knowledge, that is not the case; rather, your background in religious beliefs established a lengthy chain of decisions that led you to where you are now, including almost every single one of your opinions.
Some of your opinions may share those with people who did not reach them on the same path, or due to religion, but your path to that same opinion is the important part.
 
Aug 8, 2010
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Yes.

There's a reason it was ruled a fundemental right under the US constitution, and for you to try to take away others rights based on your religion is wrong.

If the government makes a dscision that you think is incorrect don't you think that it is your obligation as a citizen to try to change it?

Like I said, I'm against abortion based my religious beliefs, and my scientific understanding.

If I think abortion is murder, it would morally reprehensible for me not to avail myself of the political process to try to stop it.