What do you object to about Christianity?

[AznAnarchy99]

The group of immoral Christians.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

The money doesn't stop at pastors. There are the buildings, the real estate, the TV stations, the publishing houses, the gem mines (thank you Pat "blood diamonds" Robertson). Religion is big bucks.

Maybe for a few, but the vast, vast number of people that serve in Christian ministry are probably poor by most monetary standards.

According to this site, the average salary of a minister is $32K - $57K. That's not so great for a 24/7 job.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Minister/Salary

 

[PhoKingGuy]

Maybe for a few, but the vast, vast number of people that serve in Christian ministry are probably poor by most monetary standards.

According to this site, the average salary of a minister is $32K - $57K. That's not so great for a 24/7 job.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Minister/Salary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Broadcasting_Network

That shit is like 5 miles from my house, during december they have a christmas light display that is on 24/7 and is so gdamn bright it lights up the freeway next to the building. They have a huge building in newport beach right across the street from one of the most expensive malls in Orange County and get their money from subscribers that donate to them. They have a private G550 at John Wayne Airport and theres a fleet of black Escalades and a few S class sedans behind the building.

But....they're doing it for jesus.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Are there any living ex-Pope's?

http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/video.php?clip=strobelT1026

Funny, as much as Mr. Strobel writes about religion, with his "background in journalism and law," he sure didn't do much "journaling" about atheism as an atheist. Makes for a compelling story, though. Sure to sell lots of books.

 

[Malak]

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Broadcasting_Network

That shit is like 5 miles from my house, during december they have a christmas light display that is on 24/7 and is so gdamn bright it lights up the freeway next to the building. They have a huge building in newport beach right across the street from one of the most expensive malls in Orange County and get their money from subscribers that donate to them. They have a private G550 at John Wayne Airport and theres a fleet of black Escalades and a few S class sedans behind the building.

But....they're doing it for jesus.

I know nothing about this company and am not defending them, but according to your link they are the 6th largest TV network in the country. That's pretty significant.

You ignored my point that the average salary nationally for Chistain ministers is quite low. Why do you seize on one large corporation and turn a blind eye to the good people who are toiling in annonymity and hardly getting rich?

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

Funny, as much as Mr. Strobel writes about religion, with his "background in journalism and law," he sure didn't do much "journaling" about atheism as an atheist. Makes for a compelling story, though. Sure to sell lots of books.

Strobel is a grdauate of Yale Law School. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways he could make a very good living.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

I don't understand this it at all. Can you explain it to me?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Strobel is a grdauate of Yale Law School. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways he could make a very good living.

Believe me, there's no easier money to be made than by fleecing the flock while preaching to the choir.

You're welcome to preset a case on this forum, if you think you have a compelling one. I've read Strobel and was left wanting. If you don't have anything better than his compendium of errors in fact and reasoning, however, don't waste my time.

 

[khon]

What part of Judeo-Christian thought told them it was OK to buy and sell people?

Probably the bible.

Slavery is perfectly fine according to the bible, and it even has many specific rules for dealing with your slaves.

 

[StrangerGuy]

I'm sure that there are plenty of scholars that would delight in disproving the historicity of Jesus. The fact of the matter is that the scholarly mainstream not only rejects the myth thesis,but identifies serious methodological deficiencies in the approach.

You're swimming upstream on this one.

Yeah, when you see a guy firsthand who can cure severe diseases, resurrect people, feed people en masse with conjured food you are going to record that only 200 years later.

 

[mk]

Yeah, when you see a guy firsthand who can cure severe diseases, resurrect people, feed people en masse with conjured food you are going to record that only 200 years later.

Where does the 200 years come from? Biblical scholars estimate that the gospels that made it to the Bible were written in the late first century, 70-100 CE.
Some of the early pre Bible collections of commonly used scriptures may have been compiled as early as 200 CE but the texts themselves are surely older than that.

 

[IronWing]

Why do you seize on one large corporation and turn a blind eye to the good people who are toiling in annonymity and hardly getting rich?

What value is their toiling to anyone but themselves? Not the "helping the poor bit" you don't need to preach to do that. What value has preaching provided to society that is worth a dime let alone "$32-57K/year"? How is getting up in front of a crowd every Sunday "toiling in anonymity"?

 

[HumblePie]

Where does the 200 years come from? Biblical scholars estimate that the gospels that made it to the Bible were written in the late first century, 70-100 CE.
Some of the early pre Bible collections of commonly used scriptures may have been compiled as early as 200 CE but the texts themselves are surely older than that.

Biblical scholars. LOL!! Talk about a conflict of interest.

My previous statement comes from the OLDEST EVER FOUND piece of writing about Jesus or anything included in the new testament through carbon dating. Look it up yourself. The oldest found bible is 1200 years old as well. WELL after the death of the historical Jesus. Sure there are other references that have been found like the Codex and such that have been dated to 450 AD though and are part of the new testament. Not all talk about Jesus though.

We are talking about Jesus here, and not the old testament. That has earlier writings found, but not that much earlier. For awhile the Nash papyrus was the oldest carbon dated manuscript of he old testament at around 150 BC. Then the Dead Sea Scrolls were found and they had similar dates of 230-150 BC.

There are some older texts which date to 450 BC as the earlier known, but those texts are still in debate as to whether they are biblical or Qu'ran.

 

[totalnoob]

Where does the 200 years come from? Biblical scholars estimate that the gospels that made it to the Bible were written in the late first century, 70-100 CE.
Some of the early pre Bible collections of commonly used scriptures may have been compiled as early as 200 CE but the texts themselves are surely older than that.

That may be the case, but we don't have any of those scrolls. We only have copies of copies..with THOUSANDS of discrepancies between them. There is no way to know what was in the originals, because the earliest copies disagree with each other. Besides...Even if we did have the originals...70 years after Jesus's supposed death? 7 DECADES of ORAL TRADITION being spread by people with a vested interest in propagating the myth? It's hard to imagine a more unreliable way of passing a message. Did you ever play the game "telephone" in kindergarten? It's difficult to make it 7 seconds without someone screwing something up..

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

That may be the case, but we don't have any of those scrolls. We only have copies of copies..with THOUSANDS of discrepancies between them. There is no way to know what was in the originals, because the earliest copies disagree with each other. Besides...Even if we did have the originals...70 years after Jesus's supposed death? 7 DECADES of ORAL TRADITION being spread by people with a vested interest in propagating the myth? It's hard to imagine a more unreliable way of passing a message. Did you ever play the game "telephone" in kindergarten? It's difficult to make it 7 seconds without someone screwing something up..

Jesus is the equivalent of "purple monkey dishwasher" and yet 2.2 billion people claim to know not only that he existed, but that he was and is divine. It's mind-boggling.

 

[Connoisseur]

This is a great thread. COB, you have extremely eloquent and well-thought out comments. Based on the level of involvement you have in this thread, i've come to the conclusion that this is your job 24/7.

Further to the point, I hate the proselytizing nature of Christianity (and really any religion that seeks to convert others). You can't really blame this on the followers. According to every Christian i've spoken to, the Bible requires adherents to convert others to the cause as part of their duty. This is how empires are made...

I don't have any issues with the hocus pocus stories really. What's life without some good fictional stories, especially those that have survived for so long? They have to be at least entertaining.

Also, I typically have far less issue with eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism etc.) than I do with Christianity. Once again, all the same hocus pocus stories (although I thought there WERE first-hand accounts of Buddha), but they could care less about converting people.

In case anyone ever cared, I was born Hindu. Right now, just riding the "religion is stupid" train.

Take my comments with a grain of salt, as I haven't studied religion NEARLY as well as some of the other posters.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Further to the point, I hate the proselytizing nature of Christianity (and really any religion that seeks to convert others). You can't really blame this on the followers. According to every Christian i've spoken to, the Bible requires adherents to convert others to the cause as part of their duty. This is how empires are made...

First, thanks for your kind remarks (I think ) and for commenting. On the above point, I disagree -- you can blame the followers. I don't mean to Godwin the thread, but this is somewhat akin to saying that the Nazis under Hitler were just following orders. Everyone in the world, regardless of creed, has the responsibility of self-examination. But I understand what you're trying to say: if one seeks to remain a Christian, that person is often tasked with evangelization.

I don't have any issues with the hocus pocus stories really. What's life without some good fictional stories, especially those that have survived for so long? They have to be at least entertaining.

I totally agree, insofar as those stories are recognized as fictional and not used as the foundation for an entire worldview.

Also, I typically have far less issue with eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism etc.) than I do with Christianity. Once again, all the same hocus pocus stories (although I thought there WERE first-hand accounts of Buddha), but they could care less about converting people.

It would be unfair if I did not criticize these religions in the same light as those that are more externally-poised, so I can't help but decry the existence of Hinduism and Buddhism on the grounds that they are based on untenable supernatural claims. However, I'm with you on the point that they are not so focused on conversion and certainly less likely to lead to violence against other belief systems and cultures.

In fact, Buddhism especially seems to have a lot to offer in terms of introspection and the mind's relationship with the body. Meditation, for example, need not be seated in the language of faith, and segregating these potentially beneficial practices from their mysticism is a personal interest of mine.

 

[Connoisseur]

First, thanks for your kind remarks (I think ) and for commenting. On the above point, I disagree -- you can blame the followers. I don't mean to Godwin the thread, but this is somewhat akin to saying that the Nazis under Hitler were just following orders. Everyone in the world, regardless of creed, has the responsibility of self-examination. But I understand what you're trying to say: if one seeks to remain a Christian, that person is often tasked with evangelization.

I totally agree, insofar as those stories are recognized as fictional and not used as the foundation for an entire worldview.


It would be unfair if I did not criticize these religions in the same light as those that are more externally-poised, so I can't help but decry the existence of Hinduism and Buddhism on the grounds that they are based on untenable supernatural claims. However, I'm with you on the point that they are not so focused on conversion and certainly less likely to lead to violence against other belief systems and cultures.

In fact, Buddhism especially seems to have a lot to offer in terms of introspection and the mind's relationship with the body. Meditation, for example, need not be seated in the language of faith, and segregating these potentially beneficial practices from their mysticism is a personal interest of mine.

Sorry if I didn't explain it more clearly. What I MEANT to say was that the OP cannot write off the proselytizing nature to "only certain branches" or "only certain Christians" as i've seen on some of his rebuttals. My point is that the good book itself demands conversion from its followers. Since it's in the book, it's part of Christian canon and therefore well within the scope of what we're allowed to criticize based on the OP's requirements.

Also, don't get me wrong on Eastern religions. Hinduism has had its share of violence attributed to it in the past. And to this day you'll still see some cultural violence and general animosity (I think primarily between Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Jains).

However, I think we have to be careful in differentiating violence based on religion vs violence with religion used as an excuse. I always ask myself the question: "If religion didn't exist, would so-and-so conflict have ever started?" And honestly, I think religion is sometimes used as an excuse more than a motivating factor to facilitate horrendous crimes.

Also, as far as the meditation bit, I think this has already been accomplished to a degree with Yoga. In India, yoga is still deeply rooted within the religion and culture for which it was spawned. In the US, yoga is just another way for chicks stay trim and healthy.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Sorry if I didn't explain it more clearly. What I MEANT to say was that the OP cannot write off the proselytizing nature to "only certain branches" or "only certain Christians" as i've seen on some of his rebuttals. My point is that the good book itself demands conversion from its followers. Since it's in the book, it's part of Christian canon and therefore well within the scope of what we're allowed to criticize based on the OP's requirements.

Also, don't get me wrong on Eastern religions. Hinduism has had its share of violence attributed to it in the past. And to this day you'll still see some cultural violence and general animosity (I think primarily between Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Jains).

However, I think we have to be careful in differentiating violence based on religion vs violence with religion used as an excuse. I always ask myself the question: "If religion didn't exist, would so-and-so conflict have ever started?" And honestly, I think religion is sometimes used as an excuse more than a motivating factor to facilitate horrendous crimes.

Also, as far as the meditation bit, I think this has already been accomplished to a degree with Yoga. In India, yoga is still deeply rooted within the religion and culture for which it was spawned. In the US, yoga is just another way for chicks stay trim and healthy.

Totally on board with everything you've said.

Distinguishing religion-as-driver from religion-as-excuse is often difficult or impossible, as the two tend to intermingle between adherents, but your consideration is insightful. I do not intend to rabidly blame faith for every bad deed in history, but its disappearance would deprive bad people of at least one excuse.

I think we can also flip this idea around when confronted with the argument that religion -- regardless of validity -- should exist for reasons of utility: that it provides a moral framework, encourages good works, etc. In these cases, try to think of a single kind deed or revolutionary idea that could not have happened without religion. I think Christopher Hitchens has employed this challenge and finds that people are hard-pressed to provide an example.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

Believe me, there's no easier money to be made than by fleecing the flock while preaching to the choir.

If the goal of people in Christian ministry is "fleecing the flock" they are doing quite a poor job of it considering their low salaries.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

Probably the bible.

Slavery is perfectly fine according to the bible, and it even has many specific rules for dealing with your slaves.

I recall writing a paper on Christianity and slavery in college. But that was about 30 yr ago and I don't recall the details except that Christians were an important element of the abolitionist movement.

To understand slavery in biblical times, you have to understand Jesus' mission. He didn't come to free men from physical bondage, but from spiritual bondage.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

Biblical scholars. LOL!! Talk about a conflict of interest.

My previous statement comes from the OLDEST EVER FOUND piece of writing about Jesus or anything included in the new testament through carbon dating. Look it up yourself. The oldest found bible is 1200 years old as well. WELL after the death of the historical Jesus. Sure there are other references that have been found like the Codex and such that have been dated to 450 AD though and are part of the new testament. Not all talk about Jesus though.

We are talking about Jesus here, and not the old testament. That has earlier writings found, but not that much earlier. For awhile the Nash papyrus was the oldest carbon dated manuscript of he old testament at around 150 BC. Then the Dead Sea Scrolls were found and they had similar dates of 230-150 BC.

There are some older texts which date to 450 BC as the earlier known, but those texts are still in debate as to whether they are biblical or Qu'ran.

It's seems like you've hit the mother lode of conspiracy theories. The historicity of Jesus is accepted by virtually all reputable mainstream scholars.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

What value is their toiling to anyone but themselves? Not the "helping the poor bit" you don't need to preach to do that. What value has preaching provided to society that is worth a dime let alone "$32-57K/year"? How is getting up in front of a crowd every Sunday "toiling in anonymity"?

Not all people in Christian ministry get up in front of a crowd every Sunday.

Also there are plenty of lay people that take time of from work and travel at their own expense, domestically and internationally, to help others. They do so without any payment or compensation. The churches that I've been associated with have mission trips several times of year.

As far as the value, you'll have to ask those who have been helped by Christian volunteers.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Personally, I think it's a flimsy argument that religious ministry is strictly or even often performed with the intent of depriving others of money. I'm quite certain that some religious institutions are in place for this purpose, but equally certain that individuals do sometimes perform selfless deeds in the name of faith. That is, not every preacher or missionary is consciously fraudulent.

However, I would here reiterate my claim that spiritual belief is not a prerequisite of these generous pursuits, so it's not strictly an argument in favor of it.