What Daesh (ISIL/ISIS/IS) Really Wants (source: The Atlantic)

[Abwx]

That doesn't really address my point. Of the gangs like Daesh, most of them today are Islamic. Why is that? Why is Islam able to be twisted more easily than other religions.

There s no religious authorities within Islam, an imam for instance has no authority over a believer, this latter if knowledgeable enough can challenge the imam integrity or relevancy.

You, as US citizen, can convert to islam for instance and it would be much easier for you than for a muslim born man to have authority over other muslims, to summarize this is a religion for individualists where it is considered that no man can intercede between another man and god.

Consequence is that it s easy to instrumentalize this religion for one s own interests, just look at Arabia, they have a mock of a religion authority used to legitimate a kingdom.

Now to better understand what is going on in theses brains i advise to read some philosophy from Kant.

 

[realibrad]

There s no religious authorities within Islam, an imam for instance has no authority over a believer, this latter if knowledgeable enough can challenge the imam integrity or relevancy.

You, as US citizen, can convert to islam for instance and it would be much easier for you than for a muslim born man to have authority over other muslims, to summarize this is a religion for individualists where it is considered that no man can intercede between another man and god.

Consequence is that it s easy to instrumentalize this religion for one s own interests, just look at Arabia, they have a mock of a religion authority used to legitimate a kingdom.

Now to better understand what is going on in theses brains i advise to read some philosophy from Kant.

In practice this is simply not true. People follow the direction of those whom they see as leaders. In this case, an Imam is very much a religious leader. Very often, terrorist acts are preceded by an Imam ordering an act be done, and then it happens. Islam does not give explicit authority, but cultural norms give it implicitly.

If you want to delve into the technicalities of Christianity or Islam, its going to get dark real quick, as both have some terrible ideas in them. The vast majority of what terrorists do is advocated by Islam because of how they interpret Islam. You will have a tough time saying they should interpret, because then you get into opinion. Religion is a double edged sword, because so much of the language is contradictory. You can pick out the nice parts, but there are horrible parts too. So what do you do when people pick and choose just the bad parts? Are they somehow doing it wrong by picking and choosing?

 

[blastingcap]

Addendum:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119433/if-isis-not-islamic-then-inquisition-was-not-catholic

 

[Abwx]

Addendum:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119433/if-isis-not-islamic-then-inquisition-was-not-catholic

The guy is too stupid to realize that Inquisition had autjority over the whole catholic community and that it was supported by all the catholic church, it wasnt a sect within catholicism...

Anyway i like how incompetent but racist pseudo intellectual are spinning the facts.

As for Inquisition it existed not because of religious beliefs but because there was enough perves that instrumentalized the church to perform what was actualy sexual perversion, explicitely sadism.

In no way was chrisitianity as such the cause of Inquisition but to understand things like this would require more than a racist brain that is instrumentalizing a bunch of criminals as a mean to justify his racism towards muslims.

Do you realize that you are promoting "ideas" that would backfire especially against you if we were to accept racism as legitimate..?.

Given your obviously very low IQ you would had no other choice in such a society than to be a second, or rather third rate, human and be deprived of the rights granted to people proved as being more intelligent than you...

 

[Omar F1]

That doesn't really address my point. Of the gangs like Daesh, most of them today are Islamic. Why is that? Why is Islam able to be twisted more easily than other religions. I don't believe the "they are poor and unemployed" part is a valid excuse, not when there are so many poor and unemployed people of other religions (or no religion) who don't act like Daesh. If Islam is more easily interpreted in Daesh-like ways then that is a problem with Islam that other religions apparently don't have as much of a problem with.

And polls, however flawed they might be, suggest that quite a number of Muslims worldwide agree in principle with some of the stricter elements of Sharia law, including execution of Muslims who try to leave Islam (sounds like a cult to me!): http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ (Yes there may have been pressure to answer in a certain way but at the same time they didn't even poll some of the most extreme countries like Saudi Arabia.)

Hard to answer with my limited overall knowledge/experience, but you already know part of the answer anyway. I thought about it but I can't make my mind on a logical answer.

That is a nice report in that page, excellent work and thanks for sharing, though I need a short leave to read it

Addendum:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119433/if-isis-not-islamic-then-inquisition-was-not-catholic

I promise you to read it over, even though nothing could change my mind neither hundreds of millions of other Muslims, that that alleged khalifa is nothing but a fraudulent sonof......, and I swear on that by knowing nothing about him except to look into his face and eyes from that June 2014 speech.

 

[Fern]

-snip-

A lot of what we thought we knew about the Inquisition has changed. This article explains why/how etc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revision_of_the_Inquisition

Fern

 

[Abwx]

A lot of what we thought we knew about the Inquisition has changed. This article explains why/how etc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revision_of_the_Inquisition

Fern

Thanks for the link but even before reading it, and although not being a believer, i would say that Inquisition as we know it is not representative of Christianity, neither is the pope and the church in general, theses are artificial religious org that were born out of ambition and will to instrumentalize the religion for personnal interests.

There was a priest in France before the revolution in every village, his role set apart performing the usual rituals was to account the new born and deaths as well as confessing people, once a woman would confess that she committed adultery it was a certainity that she would be forever engaged in such a practice because the priests systematicaly took advantage of this knowledge to blackmail her to their advantage, that s the reality of the church at theses times, that is, this is the real world, not the imaginary world , according to Kant, that people were thinking they lived in.

In practice this is simply not true. People follow the direction of those whom they see as leaders. In this case, an Imam is very much a religious leader. Very often, terrorist acts are preceded by an Imam ordering an act be done, and then it happens. Islam does not give explicit authority, but cultural norms give it implicitly.

In practice this is true, new heads suddenly appeared and took the power over already established religious people, otherwise there would be no daesh.

The problem is that the violent and hence unscrupulous people have an advantage over balanced people, it works in Iraq like anywhere else in the world where there s civil unrest, be it violence from armed groups or dictatorial governments.

 

[Abwx]

A lot of what we thought we knew about the Inquisition has changed. This article explains why/how etc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revision_of_the_Inquisition

Fern

You know that a famed formulae was first pronounced in France, by Arnaud Amaury, in the city of Beziers when the "catholic" army entered the city, the real formulae was "kill them all, because the Lord know his owns", wich has survived under the form "kill them all, God will recognize his owns".

Only "catholic" historians are negating that such a sentence was pronounced, so much for revisionism performed by interested people.

 

[blastingcap]

Hard to answer with my limited overall knowledge/experience, but you already know part of the answer anyway. I thought about it but I can't make my mind on a logical answer.

That is a nice report in that page, excellent work and thanks for sharing, though I need a short leave to read it



I promise you to read it over, even though nothing could change my mind neither hundreds of millions of other Muslims, that that alleged khalifa is nothing but a fraudulent sonof......, and I swear on that by knowing nothing about him except to look into his face and eyes from that June 2014 speech.

I understand the argument that Daesh is not Islamic, that the caliphate is a fraud (it has to be, there is no consensus among Sunni Muslims, let alone all Muslims, and the "caliph" is probably lying about his ancestry and educational qualifications--not that those are necessary to be caliph but considering that he's a liar, thief, and murderer, that would seem to disqualify him).

And I agree. But that's not the point.

My point is not so much that Daesh is Islamic; my point is that for whatever reason, Muslims are disproportionately represented among violent armed thieves and it can't be explained by simple "lack of jobs" or poverty (despite Obama's attempt to do that), because there are many jobless poor non-Muslims that don't go crazy like that. See, e.g., http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/opinion/bergen-terrorism-root-causes/

You can argue that Daesh is not representative, and there is truth to that. In fact if I may draw a parallel: saying all Muslims are bad because of groups like AQ/Daesh, is like saying all males are bad because 90+% of violent crimes are committed by males. In both cases you wind up with a clearly wrong result. Most males are decent. Similarly, most Muslims are decent.

Yet that still doesn't answer the question of why Muslims are disproportionately represented among the current worldwide population of people who murder, rape, steal, and enslave. If it's not because of their (mis)interpretation of their religion, and if it's not because of jobs/poverty, then what is the explanation? And they ARE Muslims--as you've admitted already. Daesh may be filled with really bad Muslims who are going to hell, but they are still technically Muslims if they obey the five pillars of Islam.

 

[Orignal Earl]

My point is not so much that Daesh is Islamic; my point is that for whatever reason, Muslims are disproportionately represented among violent armed thieves and it can't be explained by simple "lack of jobs" or poverty (despite Obama's attempt to do that), because there are many jobless poor non-Muslims that don't go crazy like that. See, e.g., http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/opinion/bergen-terrorism-root-causes/

You can argue that Daesh is not representative, and there is truth to that. In fact if I may draw a parallel: saying all Muslims are bad because of groups like AQ/Daesh, is like saying all males are bad because 90+% of violent crimes are committed by males. In both cases you wind up with a clearly wrong result. Most males are decent. Similarly, most Muslims are decent.

Yet that still doesn't answer the question of why Muslims are disproportionately represented among the current worldwide population of people who murder, rape, steal, and enslave. If it's not because of their (mis)interpretation of their religion, and if it's not because of jobs/poverty, then what is the explanation? And they ARE Muslims--as you've admitted already. Daesh may be filled with really bad Muslims who are going to hell, but they are still technically Muslims if they obey the five pillars of Islam.

Outside of war torn countries, the most violent cities in the world are all mostly in North and South America.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-violent-cities-in-the-world-2014-11?op=1

 

[blastingcap]

Outside of war torn countries, the most violent cities in the world are all mostly in North and South America.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-violent-cities-in-the-world-2014-11?op=1

I see one Muslim in this thread and pretty sure he says he is no expert, but he defiantly knows a lot more then anyone else.
If we were discussing Christianity we would have no experts on this board but we would have a lot that think they are, and then they would all argue about about which sect is right

Crimes are underreported in some countries so citing to city crime stats is less than ideal. For instance many Arab women don't want to admit to being raped so it is not reported.

 

[michal1980]

Outside of war torn countries, the most violent cities in the world are all mostly in North and South America.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-violent-cities-in-the-world-2014-11?op=1

once again a liberal diverting.

 

[Orignal Earl]

once again a liberal diverting.

A Liberal, Gay, Feminist, Jihadist ISIS supporter if you include everything I have been called here

 

[Victorian Gray]

A Liberal, Gay, Feminist, Jihadist ISIS supporter if you include everything I have been called here

Canadian, eh?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Canadian, eh?

lol high fives

 

[Victorian Gray]

lol high fives

Check out Canadian Sniper in the picture thread.

When moose limbs attack.

 

[Abwx]

Crimes are underreported in some countries so citing to city crime stats is less than ideal. For instance many Arab women don't want to admit to being raped so it is not reported.

Lol, you have to rely on lies since you know that crimes rates are lower in most muslims countries than in the US, this say that despite being quite poor muslims are less prone to violence than people from a so called first world nation.

Look at Algeria in this map, try to rape a woman in this country where 60% of the lawyers and 50% of the judges are women, does the US have such a high women rate in such professions..?.

So who is a retarded nation..??.

Indeed there was rapes commited en masse in Algeria in the 50s, ask EARL since he understand what is written at the start of the video, he will tell you who were the rapers and their religion as well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQRDhDeVacE

 

[blastingcap]

Lol, you have to rely on lies

I said that crime reporting is less than ideal. I gave an example of underreporting of rapes in Arab countries.

You called that a lie. So you think that all rapes in Arab countries are reported?

Also, sometimes you might want to examine who commits crimes disproportionate to their numbers in the West.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/346059

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...8/What-is-going-wrong-in-Frances-prisons.html

Also we are getting far afield here. Look at thread title. We were talking about terrorists not street crimes. Let's try to stay on topic.

 

[OutHouse]

There s no religious authorities within Islam, an imam for instance has no authority over a believer, this latter if knowledgeable enough can challenge the imam integrity or relevancy.

You, as US citizen, can convert to islam for instance and it would be much easier for you than for a muslim born man to have authority over other muslims, to summarize this is a religion for individualists where it is considered that no man can intercede between another man and god.

Consequence is that it s easy to instrumentalize this religion for one s own interests, just look at Arabia, they have a mock of a religion authority used to legitimate a kingdom.

Now to better understand what is going on in theses brains i advise to read some philosophy from Kant.

You live in a fantasyland of ignorance.

 

[davmat787]

Unlike the Quran, I am fallible and my wording was sloppy. I should have written that the difference is that belief that the Bible is the unedited word of God is not as fundamental to Christianity as a similar belief in Islam--especially in light of the messy authorship and editorship of the Bible (new and old testament). But in Islam, the Quran is the literal word of God as revealed by the Prophet. It was carefully preserved and scholars believe it is true to the original. "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is his messenger." That's the most fundamental of the five pillars of Islam and from there it's implied that the Quran is God's literal words as revealed by Muhammad. Furthermore the Quran itself says the same. (Self-referential but hey, people actually believe this stuff.)

Yes, it is very important that people realize that the King James version, the most accepted version, of the bible is what Emperor Constantine ALLOWED to be in the bible. Many gospels were left out and made to be what amounted to illegal. This was done at the time Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome and we can be assured anything that was contentious, or seen as volatile, was not included.

How what amounts to a reduced an man edited bible be seen as the word of god has always baffled me. I've never read it or any gospels, but I bet the gospels Constantine left out could tell as much or more about Christianity than today's King James version.

 

[michal1980]

once again a liberal diverting.

A Liberal, Gay, Feminist, Jihadist ISIS supporter if you include everything I have been called here

so a pretty typical liberal then.

 

[Orignal Earl]

so a pretty typical liberal then.

It must be overwhelming to wake up each day and think every other person you meet is your enemy.
That would drive a person nuts

 

[Fern]

Yes, it is very important that people realize that the King James version, the most accepted version, of the bible is what Emperor Constantine ALLOWED to be in the bible. Many gospels were left out and made to be what amounted to illegal. This was done at the time Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome and we can be assured anything that was contentious, or seen as volatile, was not included.

How what amounts to a reduced an man edited bible be seen as the word of god has always baffled me. I've never read it or any gospels, but I bet the gospels Constantine left out could tell as much or more about Christianity than today's King James version.

As I search this seem to be the most common 'story' and differs substantially from your version:

Concerning manuscripts that were burned at the order of Constantine, there is really no mention of such a thing actually happening at the order of Constantine or at the Council of Nicea. The Arian party's document claiming Christ to be a created being, was abandoned by them because of the strong resistance to it and was torn to shreds in the sight of everyone present at the council. Constantine, and the Council of Nicea, for that matter, had virtually nothing to do with the forming of the canon. It was not even discussed at Nicea. The council that formed an undisputed decision on the canon took place at Carthage in 397, sixty years after Constantine's death. However, long before Constantine, 21 books were acknowledged by all Christians (the 4 Gospels, Acts, 13 Paul, 1 Peter, 1 John, Revelation). There were 10 disputed books (Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2-3 John, Jude, Ps-Barnabas, Hermas, Didache, Gospel of Hebrews) and several that most all considered heretical—Gospels of Peter, Thomas, Matthaias, Acts of Andrew, John, etc.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Constantine-Bible.html#ixzz3Si2oQN4k

IIRC, the Council of Nicea was conducted during Constantine's time.

Similar to the site above, the others I have seen claim the ruling on "canon" was done at Carthage in 397, well after Constantine's death.

Moreover, no sites I found mentioned either council producing a list of approved books for inclusion in the Bible. In fact, some specifically said no council ever produced such a list. I.e., the books of the Bible had long been accepted/determined before either council. Constantine had nothing to do with it.

I will also mention that all the texts/books not included in the Bible are freely available. In fact, there any number of 'educational' type TV shows about them on TV. If anybody tried to make some texts/books illegal etc they surely failed at it.

Fern

 

[ivwshane]

It must be overwhelming to wake up each day and think every other person you meet is your enemy.
That would drive a person nuts

The guys in ISIS seem to be doing ok. I bet michael would feel right at home with them.

 

[Ventanni]

Yes, it is very important that people realize that the King James version, the most accepted version, of the bible is what Emperor Constantine ALLOWED to be in the bible. Many gospels were left out and made to be what amounted to illegal. This was done at the time Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome and we can be assured anything that was contentious, or seen as volatile, was not included.

How what amounts to a reduced an man edited bible be seen as the word of god has always baffled me. I've never read it or any gospels, but I bet the gospels Constantine left out could tell as much or more about Christianity than today's King James version.

I agree with Fern's response, but wanted to add to this too. If you want to read what was left out of the Bible, you're welcome to. Most of it is all out there. People don't realize that the Bible is the work of many authors, and the words of what those authors wrote is easily the most scrutinized, studied, digested, and debated work of all mankind's efforts. We're talking millions and millions of man-hours poured into this book, and I don't say that to embellish whatsoever. And what's interesting about it is that the book that we call the Bible today is the work of 40 different authors written across the span of about 1200ish years that tells a remarkably consistent story from beginning to end.

Now, I bolded the most important point I want to make in what I quoted above. If you haven't read the Bible, and I say this lovingly, you can't really claim that it's missing pieces of the story. Again, I say that lovingly, but I do so because there was a time I used to think exactly like you did once. That is, until I actually picked up the Bible and started reading it.