What Daesh (ISIL/ISIS/IS) Really Wants (source: The Atlantic)

[Victorian Gray]

It was me all the time before you started posting, now it's us

Ok, we can start a club then. The Damnedislamofascistfeministnazicommie Club.

 

[brycejones]

It was me all the time before you started posting, now it's us

Get a room you two!

 

[Victorian Gray]

We both know you have a very limited, real-life experience in other countries and with other cultures. I'm certainly not buying any bluff to the contrary.

And you know this how? You've met Earl? You guys hang all the time? How long have you known each other?

Earl? How come I wasn't invited?

 

[Victorian Gray]

Get a room you two!

Jealous? :wub:

You can join our new club if you want.

 

[Orignal Earl]

We both know you have a very limited, real-life experience in other countries and with other cultures. I'm certainly not buying any bluff to the contrary.

I don't live in the American bubble, and I mingle with lot's of people.
Most people here are introverted loners, this has been proven through several polls

 

[Orignal Earl]

Ok, we can start a club then. The Damnedislamofascistfeministnazicommie Club.

Or just the rational, decent perspective, people people club

 

[Omar F1]

That's a lot of words, not one of which answered the question.

Is it part of Islam to behead someone for denouncing the faith?

I only ask because a high Islamic court, (not some hyper radical ISIS folks) in S.A. passed that sentence down on a man.

How does Islam deal with that fact, that supposedly legitimate leaders of Islam believe that beheading is justifiable punishment for renouncing ones faith?

Pardon my basic English, disavowing/denouncing - do you mean by this to convert from Islam to other religion? if that is the case then answer is yes, that is at least the case with the Sunni doctrine that we believe in.

Show me your list of all other Islamic courts beheading people who leave the religion
Sharia courts in most of the world are like the ones in the US, dealing with business and marriage, the same as the Catholic and Jewish courts

Practically you're correct, religious-wise there are multiple Hadith narrations that confirms with that rule.
If someone could read Arabic, he may take a look at
https://www.facebook.com/Defense.Bukhari.Muslim/posts/590659181028552

Remember, and I'd keep repeating it, that there is a huge difference between ignoring rules while acknowledging it's existence (Muslims case), and on the other hand to alter/distort God's bible altogether (as you might already know of our claims against other religions).


In modern day why would someone do that? just leave Islam if you really have to, don't announce it at all, or seek asylum to other country. Beside that most Muslims would tell you that the chance of someone who could leave Islamic faith after it has reached his heart is very rare to none.

 

[Omar F1]

You and earl are the same person. He has off accused the US of being the reason radical Islam even exists.

Did the Uncle Sam molest either of you as children? You seem to carry a deep rooted hate uncommon even among Canadians.

Way to dismiss or silence the other side of argument

 

[Orignal Earl]

Way to dismiss or silence the other side of argument

He won't silence anybody, death threats here didn't work either.
These guys can't see how much like Daesh they are.

My uncle is in Iraq right now, doing what he can to help.

 

[Nebor]

It's a good thing there are brave Canadians actually taking the fight to ISIS.

 

[Orignal Earl]

It's a good thing there are brave Canadians actually taking the fight to ISIS.

Although there is lot's of brave Canadians there fighting Daesh, my uncle is there helping the victims.
Yes, he is very brave for putting his life on the line to help others

edit- he is also my family, which means your death threats included him too

 

[blastingcap]

This one is for you, Omar F1:

http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/02032015

 

[realibrad]

This one is for you, Omar F1:

http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/02032015

The problem with most modern religions is that they speak out both sides of their mouths. Have passion and humility, until you are dealing with people that are bad, then kill them.

Militants often point to the Quran's ninth sura, or chapter, which includes calls for Muslims to "fight polytheists wherever you find them" and to subdue Christians and Jews until they pay a tax. Moderate clerics counter that these verses are linked to specifics of the time and note other verses that say there is "no force in religion."

Cultures run into problems when viewing other religions, because of perspective. For a while now, the western world has been viewing Islam as Christianity with some of the details changed. Couple that with the fact that most people know little to nothing about Christianity, you get a very broken view of things.

Very often religion is used to legitimize actions. Those actions could be good or bad. The popular view is that religion cannot be questioned. When someone does something bad, they simply were not following the real views of the religion. So what do you do when the religion does advocate horrible acts?

 

[Omar F1]

This one is for you, Omar F1:

http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/02032015

It would be a mistake to conclude the Islamic State group's extremism is the "true Islam" that emerges from the Quran and Hadith, he added.

Back while we had a true Islamic state, we had some extreme nobel examples like Makka's-liberation pardon and Taif-incident forgiveness. Back when we had a brave armies that would publicly declare war on their enemies and courageously fight them face to face - now they're abducting and beheading innocent civilians or worse hijacking some civilian airplanes, wtf that exactly is?
Also, as old Caliphate had structured one of the greatest and most modern places back in it's time, that is al-Andalus, I wonder what did ISIS establish beside the continuous destruction wherever they mobilized.

In June, the extremists declared a caliphate, or "khilafa" in Arabic, in the lands it controls in Iraq and Syria, with its leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as the caliph — a declaration roundly ridiculed by Muslim clerics of all stripes. But here too, the group went further, saying that Islam requires the existence of a caliphate and anyone who refuses to recognize its declaration is not a true Muslim.

I was tricked once and learned the lesson by the hard way - "The believer shouldn't be bitten twice by same hole" (Hadith), that is about the infamous OBL. No way for me to show sympathy to anybody who would exploit religion to lubricate his business, and we got many of them all over the ages.


I'd like to comment over many points from that article, if you're interested in specific one then shoot out. Nice read btw.

 

[blastingcap]

Back while we had a true Islamic state, we had some extreme nobel examples like Makka's-liberation pardon and Taif-incident forgiveness. Back when we had a brave armies that would publicly declare war on their enemies and courageously fight them face to face - now they're abducting and beheading innocent civilians or worse hijacking some civilian airplanes, wtf that exactly is?
Also, as old Caliphate had structured one of the greatest and most modern places back in it's time, that is al-Andalus, I wonder what did ISIS establish beside the continuous destruction wherever they mobilized.



I was tricked once and learned the lesson by the hard way - "The believer shouldn't be bitten twice by same hole" (Hadith), that is about the infamous OBL. No way for me to show sympathy to anybody who would exploit religion to lubricate his business, and we got many of them all over the ages.


I'd like to comment over many points from that article, if you're interested in specific one then shoot out. Nice read btw.

I thought it was a good counterpoint to the original article; in fact I will link to both in the OP to provide a more balanced viewpoint.

 

[PlanetJosh]

What about another surge to defeat ISIS? But this time with a more capable army, even more able than the U.S. Army. This army always seems to win when they are called in at the last minute:

 

[Omar F1]

The problem with most modern religions is that they speak out both sides of their mouths. Have passion and humility, until you are dealing with people that are bad, then kill them.



Cultures run into problems when viewing other religions, because of perspective. For a while now, the western world has been viewing Islam as Christianity with some of the details changed. Couple that with the fact that most people know little to nothing about Christianity, you get a very broken view of things.

Very often religion is used to legitimize actions. Those actions could be good or bad. The popular view is that religion cannot be questioned. When someone does something bad, they simply were not following the real views of the religion. So what do you do when the religion does advocate horrible acts?

I can say it's really hard to differentiate between hypocrisy (in which the world, and most importantly some religious clerics, are full of it one way or another) and between real religious view.
By the way, I can tell you that in Islamic contexts, it was intentionally meant to broad and not 100% clear-cut type. Was it meant for us to be different in the first place? That is ok until we start killing each other, or it's just a test to find out who has a straight faith/mentality aside from those who don't.

Core religion values can't be questioned, but human interpretations of the numerous contexts is questionable, despite clerics refusal to acknowledge so.

 

[michal1980]

That's a lot of words, not one of which answered the question.

Is it part of Islam to behead someone for denouncing the faith?

I only ask because a high Islamic court, (not some hyper radical ISIS folks) in S.A. passed that sentence down on a man.

How does Islam deal with that fact, that supposedly legitimate leaders of Islam believe that beheading is justifiable punishment for renouncing ones faith?

Pardon my basic English, disavowing/denouncing - do you mean by this to convert from Islam to other religion? if that is the case then answer is yes, that is at least the case with the Sunni doctrine that we believe in.
.

Yes I meant converting to another religion.

Killing someone for that sounds pretty radical. But I'm sure our resident ISIL mouth pieces will support you.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Yes I meant converting to another religion.

Killing someone for that sounds pretty radical. But I'm sure our resident ISIL mouth pieces will support you.

You believe SA is the authority on Islam, you believe there are Daesh supporters here, and now.. that all Muslims are Sunni.
You believe in these things with no evidence whatsoever

I don't think trying to reason with a fanatic on a message board is possible, its hard enough to do in real life face to face

 

[realibrad]

I can say it's really hard to differentiate between hypocrisy (in which the world, and most importantly some religious clerics, are full of it one way or another) and between real religious view.
By the way, I can tell you that in Islamic contexts, it was intentionally meant to broad and not 100% clear-cut type. Was it meant for us to be different in the first place? That is ok until we start killing each other, or it's just a test to find out who has a straight faith/mentality aside from those who don't.

Core religion values can't be questioned, but human interpretations of the numerous contexts is questionable, despite clerics refusal to acknowledge so.

The bold part I have a problem with. I think they should be questioned, as they are not objective. Even if you believe your religion is the right one, it only means all the others were invented or incorrect at best. That would mean they do not contain objective truths. So, with that being true, we as a society would want their core values questioned to help them grow and modernize. I think the problem with Islam that other major religions don't have a problem with, is that the culture of the religion is ok with changing its views, and even ignoring scripture. Islam being the perfect word of god cannot be ignored as easily. So, because the Qur'an was written so long ago, much of its "morality" is outdated, but because its perfect, cannot be changed.

Most Christians and Jews that I know completely ignore most of their holy books. It is likely a product of not knowing what is in their holy books, but either way, they simply ignore the parts that most would consider bad.

All religions I have seen have stupid stuff in them, some just have followers that stick to the rules better than others.

 

[Black Octagon]

Another rebuttal: http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015...mic-scholar-refutes-claims-isiss-links-islam/