What Daesh (ISIL/ISIS/IS) Really Wants (source: The Atlantic)

[1prophet]

There is a major disconnect from what the writer is saying, vs many others that say that ISIS has nothing to do with religion. In fact, there was just a thread where a hostage was let go, and he said that ISIS did not focus on religion too much. There is an idea out there that ISIS is not about religion, but people wanting power and using Islam to legitimize their actions.

The problem is that once you dont believe religions are true, then all actions taken by them lose meaning. Once you believe god talks to people, how do you prove that ISIS is not doing gods work? ISIS is following Islamic teachings pretty closely. Its a religion founded during a time were people were assholes. All other major religions got over the assholes for the most part. The problem is that people are trying to say that ISIS is not really Islam and it very much is.

Religion can be interpreted. How you say any 1 interpretation is right over another is impossible. You would have to "know" which one is true, and that is to presuppose one is true. If you dont presuppose that one is true, then you can look and say which is more damaging. Right now, Islam has more followers that are doing terrorist activity. This does not mean that they do more illegal activities, as many other people do shit wrong that are not followers of Islam. Its also true that the internet is not being filled with Buddhists cutting off peoples heads, or Jews strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up Muslims. Both of those religions do have followers that do crazy shit too, but not as many terrorist activities. Something is there, and many say its racist to ask what, because its assumed you like one over another when you say one is worse than another. As an atheist, I don't like any religions, I just think followers in some religions are not as crazy as others.

Separation of religion from state, freedom of speech, women have equal rights, rule of law,

what a concept, you think someone in the middle east would have figured it out by now,

Oh wait someone did and proved Islam can undergo secularization like all other religions

Too bad oil loving neocons and multicultural apologist liberals allowed the type of Islam we see in ISIS to become what it is today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk#Domestic_policies

In the years following 1926, Mustafa Kemal introduced a radical departure from previous reformations established by the Ottoman Empire.[90] For the first time in history, Islamic law was separated from secular law, and restricted to matters of religion.[90] Mustafa Kemal said

“ We must liberate our concepts of justice, our laws and our legal institutions from the bonds which, even though they are incompatible with the needs of our century, still hold a tight grip on us.[91] ”

On 1 March 1926, the Turkish penal code was passed. It was modelled after the Italian Penal Code. On 4 October 1926, Islamic courts were closed. Establishing the civic law needed time, so Mustafa Kemal delayed the inclusion of the principle of laïcité until 5 February 1937.

Ottoman practice discouraged social interaction between men and women in keeping with Islamic practice of sex segregation. Mustafa Kemal began developing social reforms very early, as was evident in his personal journal. He and his staff discussed issues like abolishing the veiling of women and the integration of women into the outside world.

The clue on how he was planning to tackle the issue was stated in his journal on November 1915;

“ The social change can come by (1) educating capable mothers who are knowledgeable about life; (2) giving freedom to women; (3) a man can change his morals, thoughts, and feelings by leading a common life with a woman; as there is an inborn tendency towards the attraction of mutual affection.[92] ” Mustafa Kemal needed a new civil code to establish his second major step of giving freedom to women.

The first part was the education of girls and was established with the unification of education. On 4 October 1926, the new Turkish civil code passed. It was modelled after the Swiss Civil Code. Under the new code, women gained equality with men in such matters as inheritance and divorce. Mustafa Kemal did not consider gender a factor in social organization.

According to his view, society marched towards its goal with men and women united. He believed that it was scientifically impossible for him to achieve progress and to become civilized if the gender separation continued as in Ottoman times.[93] During a meeting he declaimed:

“ To the women: Win for us the battle of education and you will do yet more for your country than we have been able to do. It is to you that I appeal.

To the men: If henceforward the women do not share in the social life of the nation, we shall never attain to our full development. We shall remain irremediably backward, incapable of treating on equal terms with the civilizations of the West.[94”

 

[blastingcap]

Separation of religion from state, freedom of speech, women have equal rights, rule of law,

what a concept, you think someone in the middle east would have figured it out by now,

Oh wait someone did and proved Islam can undergo secularization like all other religions

Too bad oil loving neocons and multicultural apologist liberals allowed the type of Islam we see in ISIS to become what it is today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk#Domestic_policies

Guess who is rolling back Ataturk's reforms and you can tell he wants to bring back the Ottoman empire with himself as head?

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...dogan-palestine-abbas-welcoming-ceremony.html

 

[blastingcap]

Some people blame Daesh on poor/unemployed Muslims but statistically that isn't the entire reason. Islam is likely to be part of the problem, not just poverty. Else the millions of poor Buddhists, Hindus, etc. would have caused even more problems by now. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...a_administration_for_saying_unemployment.html

 

[werepossum]

I was raised as a Catholic and at mass when the priest read from the bible he would always end with "the word of the lord" to which we replied "thanks be to god" followed by a bunch of friggen standing, sitting, kneeling, standing again, sitting, getting up to wait in line to enjoy the sacred cannibalism, kneeling again, sitting and maybe another stand thrown in before we could finally get the hell out of there.

Yeah, but I haven't known many Catholics who actually read the Bible. Not much harm in believing it is the actual factual word of God if you don't know what it actually says.

The Baptists (the cult in which I was raised, characterized by the belief that holding someone under water will bring them around to your way of thinking) got smart, ditched the sacred cannibalism, and substituted fried chicken. They will not however speak to you in the liquor store as will Catholics.

Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. did most of the sponsoring. The CIA's involvement was pathetically small: http://www.wsj.com/articles/covert-cia-mission-to-arm-syrian-rebels-goes-awry-1422329582

"Some weapons shipments were so small that commanders had to ration ammunition. One of the U.S.’s favorite trusted commanders got the equivalent of 16 bullets a month per fighter. Rebel leaders were told they had to hand over old antitank missile launchers to get new ones—and couldn’t get shells for captured tanks. When they appealed last summer for ammo to battle fighters linked to al Qaeda, the U.S. said no."

"Officials defend the decision to keep the arms pipeline small and tightly controlled, citing concerns that weapons could fall into the wrong hands."

I certainly understand that fear as we seem to perpetually arm the next group that attacks us, but I think it's better to give nothing at all than to give a pittance. That just breeds resentment.

Omar what you are doing is no different than the Christians who deny Hitler was Christian, and those Nazi running the gas chambers where Christians.

Truth is ISIS is what Islam is all about, and the Nazi where the most faithful of Christians.

This is why we must rid the world of this plague.

Idiot. Islam is "all about" whatever individual Muslims make of it, just as with any other religion. ISIS' position is the purest adherence to Islam, but that doesn't make it any truer or more correct than Omar's diametrically opposed faith. Even among Salafi, some are content to work on self-perfection and wait for the end times, not try to bring it about. Faith is more than simply following orders written hundreds of years ago. And Hitler was an atheist who like all politicians simply used the cover of religion when advantageous. The Nazis were mostly not Christian at all, much less observant, and those soldiers who were observant Christians were much oppressed. General Gotthard Heinrici, perhaps the best general in the Nazi army (a position with a hell of a lot of excellent competition), was denied promotion and an army command several times because of his faith, receiving several personal reprimands from Hitler himself for his faith, until they could no longer do without his personal specialty. (Heinrici was the undisputed master of defensive warfare, and in spite of this aspect not getting as much press, the German General Staff taught defensive warfare at least as intensively as blitzkrieg, as Germany fully expected to be outmanned in every war.)

 

[finglobes]

"Guess who is rolling back Ataturk's reforms and you can tell he wants to bring back the Ottoman empire with himself as head?"


Curiously Obama's best new buddy on world scene is Ergodan - who has been getting arms and recruits to ISIS (they come via Turkey). I'm sure Obama admires how Ergodan threw 100+ military officers into jail. It was military who kept Turkey from going full salami on Islami


"Obama names Turkey’s Erdoğan among top five international friends"

http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomac...ng-top-five-international-friends_269076.html


US President Barack Obama has listed Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan among the five world leaders who he has the closest personal ties with.

 

[blastingcap]

"Guess who is rolling back Ataturk's reforms and you can tell he wants to bring back the Ottoman empire with himself as head?"


Curiously Obama's best new buddy on world scene is Ergodan - who has been getting arms and recruits to ISIS (they come via Turkey). I'm sure Obama admires how Ergodan threw 100+ military officers into jail. It was military who kept Turkey from going full salami on Islami


"Obama names Turkey’s Erdoğan among top five international friends"

http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomac...ng-top-five-international-friends_269076.html


US President Barack Obama has listed Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan among the five world leaders who he has the closest personal ties with.

Obama says a lot of things. Probably to try to butter Erdogan up. Actions speak louder than words, though, Erdogan wants to be like Putin. Look at his actions and behavior.

 

[Fern]

"Guess who is rolling back Ataturk's reforms and you can tell he wants to bring back the Ottoman empire with himself as head?"


Curiously Obama's best new buddy on world scene is Ergodan - who has been getting arms and recruits to ISIS (they come via Turkey). I'm sure Obama admires how Ergodan threw 100+ military officers into jail. It was military who kept Turkey from going full salami on Islami


"Obama names Turkey’s Erdoğan among top five international friends"

http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomac...ng-top-five-international-friends_269076.html


US President Barack Obama has listed Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan among the five world leaders who he has the closest personal ties with.

I think the topic of where ISIS's arms and supplies comes from doesn't get enough attention. Somebody is helping. That needs to be fixed.

Fern

 

[Ns1]

I think the topic of where ISIS's arms and supplies comes from doesn't get enough attention. Somebody is helping. That needs to be fixed.

Fern

isn't the answer the iraqi arms depots filled with american supplies that they raided?

 

[ivwshane]

isn't the answer the iraqi arms depots filled with american supplies that they raided?

Actually I think it's from the large arms depot we didn't destroy/secure when we bombed Libya.

 

[Fern]

isn't the answer the iraqi arms depots filled with american supplies that they raided?

There would be some of that. Same with Syria. I could be wrong, but I'm reluctant to believe ISIS fighters, who've been fighting there now for quite some time, don't need more supplies (food, ammo, etc.) than what they can scavenge.

We already know that they are doing business with someone, even if just selling oil.

Others suspect that they are being helped.

Fern

 

[Omar F1]

That is only true, if those among you have not transgressed upon you. If the unbelievers have wronged or oppressed you, then you simply need 9:123


Islam like most religions is filled with contradictions. It allows you to take any opinion on any topic. Islam says to defend yourself, but stop when the attackers stop. It also says to wipe out those nonbelievers who have wronged you and the religion.

But we're talking here about innocent civilians, which they're living safely among us, either as citizens or those who came from outside with covenant to work here.


As for what seems to be contradictions, that's why Muslims are requested to have some Islamic studies to help put Quran & Hadith into understandable perspective. Most of us actually do not understand each and every verse in Quran, if everybody would go construe some parts of it as they would like to, that could go very bad or dangerous, as currently happening with ISIS; they lack the overall perspective of the prophet guidance and teachings.

 

[Omar F1]

We were repeatedly told that they were not Muslims and weren't acting in accordance with Islam. Turns out they were just the most Islamic people on the planet.

Omar what you are doing is no different than the Christians who deny Hitler was Christian, and those Nazi running the gas chambers where Christians.

Truth is ISIS is what Islam is all about, and the Nazi where the most faithful of Christians.

This is why we must rid the world of this plague.

Every time a Muslim does something awful, the common refrain is that they "aren't Muslims." Yet would you agree that as long as they follow the five pillars of Islam, they are Muslims? Maybe not very good Muslims but technically still Muslims.

You're right, I can't deny that or call them infidels either, but as Muslims we're seriously responsible to fight such group that we call Khawarij (kind of outlaw).


We need to understand what are the main sources of Islamic enactments: They're Quran, Sunnah (Hadith), and what we call the major agreement of renowned Islamic scholars.

I would like here to emphasize the importance of the major agreement about ISIS here in the Islamic world and especially in Saudi Arabia, as some consider it extreme. Well, I neither heard of any country nor any renowned Imam that has permit to follow that group or consider it valid. The fact is, if those hypocrite mercenaries were true Islamic group, we could have witnessed millions of followers.

That said, who should be trusted and considered more knowledgeable about Islam, the Western media or us?

 

[realibrad]

But we're talking here about innocent civilians, which they're living safely among us, either as citizens or those who came from outside with covenant to work here.


As for what seems to be contradictions, that's why Muslims are requested to have some Islamic studies to help put Quran & Hadith into understandable perspective. Most of us actually do not understand each and every verse in Quran, if everybody would go construe some parts of it as they would like to, that could go very bad or dangerous, as currently happening with ISIS; they lack the overall perspective of the prophet guidance and teachings.

But thats the problem. You look at those people and call them innocents. You and I agree on that. You seem like a civil person, and as such, I have no problem with the way you practice your faith. The issue is that there is a foundation in Islam and Christianity that advocates horrible acts. Once you label someone as a non-innocent, you can then follow the scripture on how to deal with them. I think you would admit that there is a lot of violence in the Quran about what to do to enemies.

 

[blastingcap]

But thats the problem. You look at those people and call them innocents. You and I agree on that. You seem like a civil person, and as such, I have no problem with the way you practice your faith. The issue is that there is a foundation in Islam and Christianity that advocates horrible acts. Once you label someone as a non-innocent, you can then follow the scripture on how to deal with them. I think you would admit that there is a lot of violence in the Quran about what to do to enemies.

If the argument is that people like Daesh are misinterpreting Islam, then that is still a problem with Islam. The problem in that case would be that it is apparently much easier (compared to other religions) to misinterpret Islam as advocating violence.

Other religions can be misinterpreted as well, but there seems to be a much higher rate of misinterpretation among Muslims than anyone else. There aren't as many homicidal Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, etc., not to the extent where they decide to rape and enslave women, behead people, burn people alive, etc.

 

[Omar F1]

But thats the problem. You look at those people and call them innocents. You and I agree on that. You seem like a civil person, and as such, I have no problem with the way you practice your faith. The issue is that there is a foundation in Islam and Christianity that advocates horrible acts. Once you label someone as a non-innocent, you can then follow the scripture on how to deal with them. I think you would admit that there is a lot of violence in the Quran about what to do to enemies .

Nobody could deny the harsh ruling of Quran against non-believers, and there are many, actually it's one of subjects that some Muslims has thought about for sure, but personally I reached some opinion.

But as I stated earlier, it's agreed over that we don't rule by Quran only, we've the Prophet says with almost same importance to guide us as well.

 

[werepossum]

But we're talking here about innocent civilians, which they're living safely among us, either as citizens or those who came from outside with covenant to work here.


As for what seems to be contradictions, that's why Muslims are requested to have some Islamic studies to help put Quran & Hadith into understandable perspective. Most of us actually do not understand each and every verse in Quran, if everybody would go construe some parts of it as they would like to, that could go very bad or dangerous, as currently happening with ISIS; they lack the overall perspective of the prophet guidance and teachings.

That's a double-edged sword at best, since prevailing interpretation is that the contradictions cannot be the fault of Muhammad (being perfect) and therefore G-d must have changed His mind. Therefore any Islamic scholar or teacher seeking to teach coexistence begins at a serious disadvantage compared to the radicals who must only argue that the Quran means exactly what it says.

By contrast, Christianity only has the problems of convincing people to live by Christ's words and, hopefully, ignoring the bits about homosexuality. Judaism had the same problem being Old Testament, but has a recognized subset as well as having developed a rich body of law governing behavior. Same for Islam, but when peaceful coexistence goes directly against the supposed written word of G-d it is a much harder sale. I wish you well with it as I do think you are an honorable man and the world would be a better place if more Muslims (and frankly more non-Muslims) had your understanding of G-d's will. Unfortunately that does not seem to be the direction Islam is heading.

 

[Omar F1]

That's a double-edged sword at best, since prevailing interpretation is that the contradictions cannot be the fault of Muhammad (being perfect) and therefore G-d must have changed His mind. Therefore any Islamic scholar or teacher seeking to teach coexistence begins at a serious disadvantage compared to the radicals who must only argue that the Quran means exactly what it says.

By contrast, Christianity only has the problems of convincing people to live by Christ's words and, hopefully, ignoring the bits about homosexuality. Judaism had the same problem being Old Testament, but has a recognized subset as well as having developed a rich body of law governing behavior. Same for Islam, but when peaceful coexistence goes directly against the supposed written word of G-d it is a much harder sale. I wish you well with it as I do think you are an honorable man and the world would be a better place if more Muslims (and frankly more non-Muslims) had your understanding of G-d's will. Unfortunately that does not seem to be the direction Islam is heading.

I'd like to add that in our beliefs, the Prophet says/acts has came with acceptance from the God himself, that why Hadith has the same level of importance as Quran. This is a known Islamic principle and not a
mere opinion.

Therefore any Islamic scholar or teacher seeking to teach coexistence begins at a serious disadvantage

Islamic studies is a very long way and serious one, it's not like just lean the basics, read a few contexts and that's it go and issue any rule you might like.
We know some Islamic scholars who have spent most of their lives studying Islam's different aspects, and yet they never call themselves masters or consider they reached the end of it.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Islamic studies is a very long way and serious one, it's not like just lean the basics, read a few contexts and that's it go and issue any rule you might like.
We know some Islamic scholars who have spent most of their lives studying Islam's different aspects, and yet they never call themselves masters or consider they reached the end of it.

They just need to hang out in P&N for a while as there are a number of people here who would be only to glad to explain it all to them.

 

[Omar F1]

If the argument is that people like Daesh are misinterpreting Islam, then that is still a problem with Islam. The problem in that case would be that it is apparently much easier (compared to other religions) to misinterpret Islam as advocating violence.

Other religions can be misinterpreted as well, but there seems to be a much higher rate of misinterpretation among Muslims than anyone else. There aren't as many homicidal Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, etc., not to the extent where they decide to rape and enslave women, behead people, burn people alive, etc.

Problem is, they aren't misinterpreting Islam at all, here we're on agreement considering them astray group who totally missed the correct path.


The alleged Islamic ISIS is advancing through spreading nothing but misery, chaos, death and total destruction, that is the farthest from what our message intended to be in the first place.

 

[Omar F1]

They just need to hang out in P&N for a while as there are a number of people here who would be only to glad to explain it all to them.

And that is another problem actually, as a lot of Islamic scholars don't believe in the importance of English as second language, they're still doing it the old way.

Instead of blaming others for their believes, why don' they learn their language and try to reach the other side's people. As a matter of fact, you usually would find those clerics/scholars who travelled aboard to be much more tolerant than those who never been there, Aayid al-Qarni is one example which came right in my mind.

 

[MongGrel]

Daesh wants to live like Columbian Drug lords while they still have the chance, and probably are at the moment, at the upper end.

While using the ignorant people to make it possible.

They don't give a shit what happens later.

 

[feralkid]

They just need to hang out in P&N for a while as there are a number of people here who would be only to glad to explain it all to them.

In 140 characters or less.

 

[feralkid]

Daesh wants to live like Columbian Drug lords while they still have the chance, and probably are at the moment, at the upper end.

While using the ignorant people to make it possible.

They don't give a shit what happens later.

Sounds familiar; are there any other leaders in any other countries that behave like this?

:'(

 

[blastingcap]

Sounds familiar; are there any other leaders in any other countries that behave like this?

:'(

Then join Daesh since you are implying equivalence.

 

[blastingcap]

Problem is, they aren't misinterpreting Islam at all, here we're on agreement considering them astray group who totally missed the correct path.


The alleged Islamic ISIS is advancing through spreading nothing but misery, chaos, death and total destruction, that is the farthest from what our message intended to be in the first place.

That doesn't really address my point. Of the gangs like Daesh, most of them today are Islamic. Why is that? Why is Islam able to be twisted more easily than other religions. I don't believe the "they are poor and unemployed" part is a valid excuse, not when there are so many poor and unemployed people of other religions (or no religion) who don't act like Daesh. If Islam is more easily interpreted in Daesh-like ways then that is a problem with Islam that other religions apparently don't have as much of a problem with.

And polls, however flawed they might be, suggest that quite a number of Muslims worldwide agree in principle with some of the stricter elements of Sharia law, including execution of Muslims who try to leave Islam (sounds like a cult to me!): http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ (Yes there may have been pressure to answer in a certain way but at the same time they didn't even poll some of the most extreme countries like Saudi Arabia.)