What Caused the Rise and Fall of California?

[werepossum]

both spending and tax bills should require 2/3 vote.
Problem solved.

qft

 

[sandorski]

Here's a better solution.
Cut spending.

I wasn't suggesting that, just saying that was the only way to deal with the situation. What you suggest wasn't a possibility at all. You may as well be saying, "Grow the Economy by X%".

 

[sandorski]

BOTH spending and tax bills should require 2/3 vote.
Problem solved.

No, that's a recipe for disaster. The Minority is given way too much power in that arrangement.

 

[soccerballtux]

...

That data is obviously reflected in my post. I'm going further back to discuss the underlying causes of the data you present.

I'm afraid immigrants have nothing to do with it. A spend happy leftist legislature is the problem.

 

[soccerballtux]

That depends on the nature of the road and the route. What happens if you need to build your road through some sucker's 1 mile x 20 mile parcel right at mile 10 on the 20 mile side and he won't sell that portion of land or give you permission to do it? (Under real capitalism he has a right to own his land and no court would have the legal authority to force him off of it nor to tell him what to do with his land.)

How great of a damper would toll roads (or "pay as you drive" roads) put on our nation's economy and people's freedom? Would the lower classes be able to afford to drive to work or would they be restricted to their dwellings? What kind of a damper would it place on commerce?

What really complicates this issue is that we're not talking about the production of widgets, but rather an item that is not very susceptible to competition because land only exists in finite quantities and there is really only one direct route between points A and B. That sort of a situation--infrastructure--is a good function of government.

Yeah, that never happens. Total abstraction from the absurd spending we see in California.
Starve the beast.

 

[sportage]

The rise and fall was due to their very “freebie-give-away” type of system.
CA had their own form of ssdi. All you had to do, to get paid for not working
via the taxpayers expense, was claim stress on the job, get a doctor to go along (easy to do out there) and then sit back and collect your pay. A lot of people did just that... A LOT! It was very common for a teacher, or cop to work for a few months, claim some work related stress experience, and they started collecting state checks in the mail.

Anyone remember or been to Blacks Beach out in San Diego?
I spent a lot of time baking in the sun at Blacks when I lived out there. Working evenings, I had my days free to enjoy.

You had to climb down (and back up) some 200+ foot goat trails to get to the beach below. All the workout you needed in a week. Was like a mile high stair case going straight up. A lot of people fainted after climbing back up the cliffs to the top (parking lot). I loved the exercise!

I bring this up because as a regular at Blacks Beach, I often noticed other regulars climbing the cliffs to spend the day at the beach. Same people, most every day (like me). One day I overheard one guy complaining to another that his disability was about to end, and he would have to find a job, and no longer able to beach-it every day.

Disability?

If this guy could climb those cliffs, he could certainly hold a job somewhere. But for many months, he came to the beach every day and climbed up and down those cliffs.
I had no idea he was living on CA disability, and then I discovered a lot of the regulars were also on state disability.

It was easy to do. And it pissed me off.

And that is just one example CA could never maintain its economy, especially after the jobs started going south and tax revenues began to shrink. A state cannot continue to give tax money away like a drunken fool, and not expect to go broke.
Give-aways in CA via the tax payer could be compared to a growing cancer of the state budget.

Real estate for example, if I understand it ( I rented out there so not sure) but as I under stood it, if you bought a house your property taxes stayed the same forever. Only when moving up to a new home did your property taxes change (taxes on the new home). So you had many people living in 500 thousand dollar home paying the same property tax rate as some guy in a 100 thousand dollar home.

That alone is going to severely limit tax revenues. But I do believe that is how it works, or did work?

Another issue was voter propositions. Anyone with a clipboard and some nutty idea could get a proposition on the ballot for public vote. All you had to do is stand at Vons or Alpha Beta in the parking lot and collect signatures all day. It didn’t take that many signatures to get something on the ballot.

You want all telephone poles painted green? Just collect enough signatures.
You want a ban on gay marriage? Go collect those signatures.
You want Gray Davis kicked out of office and Arnold put it? Signatures!

Problem was... After some off the wall ballot initiative was passed by the voters, CA had to spend millions putting it into law. And always... the law suits followed to stop the action from becoming law. A lot of ballot initiatives, a lot of lawsuits, a lot of state expense.
Very costly to any state, even “you look marvelous” rich California.

And now... it’s all coming home to roost.
That is my opinion on why CA went broke, is going broke. And it really hit home when Gray Davis was the governor, so Arnold seen his opportunity. Hell... remember, Gray Davis “was” ousted from office thru one of those CA voter ballot initiatives. People just collected signatures in some grocery store parking lot every weekend, like a little army paid a few dollars an hour thru some group, each with its own agenda, and poof... it was on the ballot.

Might sound like the ultimate freedom of speech exercise, but a very costly one to the state.

 

[Craig234]

Sportage: got any numbers how many did what you say a very larger number did?

Is the emotional reaction driving your claims on the numbers?

I'm all for stronger enforcement (it costs money) of fraud and going after such people.

But I'm not for exagerrating the issue at the expense of making it bigger than the actual causes, like the Republicans' 1/3 veto.

 

[gingermeggs]

My opinion:

The rise of California was due to a massive influx of already-Americanized migrants from the East Coast and Midwest in the middle 20th century. Some dustbowl migrants aside, many came with money in their pockets. They did not come out of desperation.

What these people came for was primarily the suburban dream. Orange and Marin counties are the northern and southern models of what people were looking for. People did not come to be part of a multiracial society, although most probably didn't think about the issue.

So here you have an affluent or middle class influx of people who contribute significantly to the tax base. Flush with money, the state is able to educate its citizens in ways the rest of the world could only dream of: the University of California system. Not only was California economically rich, but it had cultural centers in Los Angeles and San Francisco. Also, California didn't have the same level of upper-class entrenchment as the east coast. If you had it in you, you could really make your dreams come true. People were happy with California.

Beginning in the 1970s, we begin to see a massive migration of poor central americans. These people were desperate. They did not have money in their pockets or advanced skills. These immigrants aren't to blame; the federal government is. They allowed the migration and in some cases caused it with hawkish anti-communist foreign policy in central America.

At first it wasn't too big of a deal. More people simply left Los Angeles County and went to Orange County instead. (We also got burritos and cheaper produce.) Although these migrants usually found work, the menial work they did rarely compensated for the world-class public benefits that California was offering. We are seeing a continued third-world-ization of California. Very rich people on the top and very poor people in slums on the bottom.

The migration has become so pronounced that there has been white flight to Colorado and Arizona. A large part of California's tax base has gone with them. California doesn't have the money to provide world-class benefits anymore. People don't have benefits or the suburban dream either. People are unhappy with California.

It is sad that in America's effort to defeat communism, it indirectly caused the loss of one of its jewels, California of the 50's and 60's.

So what's the good news? California is now a cultural center in a different way. It is dynamic in a different way. Urban Los Angeles and urban San Francisco are continuing to push forward. They're not for everyone, especially those that moved to Colorado and Arizona, but it isn't just homeless people and gangs either. If California gets real that it can't offer the same per-person benefits that it once did, it can still grow and be vibrant in a new way.

Edit: What's your theory?

what a load of bollocks, most that came there were poor who work their stinking asses off post ww2, get over it champ, the hippys that sucked their blood in the 60's destroyed the place.
there is fundamentals which create prosperity and neither liberals nor conservatives in politics respect those rudimentary requirements.
The fall of rome in 30 decades!
most dream/love of money and hate work nowdays- dirt on ure hands kinda work....PRODUCTION!
Capacity has replaced real genetic aptitude, the italians/celtics/southern Europeans that built it have died and their spawn is inoculated by the corporatocracy~
What becomes of the broken hearted?(funny spell check doesn't register that word"hearted").
dreams die faster then the real men and women that created that inspiration.
not all you got is apathetic conspiration, hang onto that flag....bud!
whats the dream now- to be a porn star?
When will people learn emotional buggery hurts like anal sex!
Maybe the Z's can turn it around, but the spawn of hippies are like crack babies.

 

[Craig234]

what a load of bollocks

See below

, most that came there were poor who work their stinking asses off post ww2, get over it champ, the hippys that sucked their blood in the 60's destroyed the place.
there is fundamentals which create prosperity and neither liberals nor conservatives in politics respect those rudimentary requirements.
The fall of rome in 30 decades!
most dream/love of money and hate work nowdays- dirt on ure hands kinda work....PRODUCTION!
Capacity has replaced real genetic aptitude, the italians/celtics/southern Europeans that built it have died and their spawn is inoculated by the corporatocracy~
What becomes of the broken hearted?(funny spell check doesn't register that word"hearted").
dreams die faster then the real men and women that created that inspiration.
not all you got is apathetic conspiration, hang onto that flag....bud!
whats the dream now- to be a porn star?
When will people learn emotional buggery hurts like anal sex!
Maybe the Z's can turn it around, but the spawn of hippies are like crack babies.

The people who worked in 1900 worked very hard. Too hard. Their kids often worked. They didn't get educations to work in some back-breaking labor for barely enough to live on to make someone rich.

This was the 'capitalist ideal' - very cheap labor allowing those with capital to get rich from others' labor. They didn't work for middle class status, but for enough food. No problem.

It was *liberal* reforms that allowed people working very hard to be middle class, not hungry instead of starving. It wasn't working harder - no child labor, the 40 hour work week, safety - it was liberal policy.

One reason the right, like you here, so much likes to attack the workers as you do for not doing enough, is it changes the subject from the inequities of the system.

Forget owner greed - if you aren't happy in your 16 hour a day six day a week unsafe work, then work 7 days, and be careful not to get hurt.

No, the people should get a fair share for their work, when the productivity allows they should prosper, not only the owners.

 

[BabaBooey]

 

[gingermeggs]

See below



The people who worked in 1900 worked very hard. Too hard. Their kids often worked. They didn't get educations to work in some back-breaking labor for barely enough to live on to make someone rich.

This was the 'capitalist ideal' - very cheap labor allowing those with capital to get rich from others' labor. They didn't work for middle class status, but for enough food. No problem.

It was *liberal* reforms that allowed people working very hard to be middle class, not hungry instead of starving. It wasn't working harder - no child labor, the 40 hour work week, safety - it was liberal policy.

One reason the right, like you here, so much likes to attack the workers as you do for not doing enough, is it changes the subject from the inequities of the system.

Forget owner greed - if you aren't happy in your 16 hour a day six day a week unsafe work, then work 7 days, and be careful not to get hurt.

No, the people should get a fair share for their work, when the productivity allows they should prosper, not only the owners.

nah, I'd rest with the point that more people have hopped onto the easy street of "created existences", they suck up the wealth created by those NOW slaving hard at labour intensive work, they are the sergeants to those LORDS of the coin.
typically they have avoided manual labour positions for highly educated doctorates, were they tell the "commoners" how to live....in accordance to the coin LORD!
A pr position where they justify abhorrent wealth in a world in which 20% starve to death annually!
better them then us hey? you sound like a catholic priest with your abductive words, mean while the coin continues to materialised in the accounts of the coin Lordss.
bad cop, good cop!
did you just watch oliver twist, after sucking a scooby doo, gay bud?
hard to argue with a man who splits ass pubes.

 

[gingermeggs]

nothing much could harm his roid fucked mind anyhow, wish we could get a photo of his micro penis and shrunken testicles....still bigger then his brain I'd reckon.
Makes a hell of a puppet all the same!
scarey bit is people are looking for the missing link!
here we have it! the Thal that became a leader of "man".
I would bet my house he's been "shanked" by another man once or twice.

 

[Sea Moose]

Its true then what they say about p&n

 

[lothar]

No, that's a recipe for disaster. The Minority is given way too much power in that arrangement.

I fail to see how requiring a 2/3 majority is a recipe for disaster while 51:49 isn't.
2/3 majority would require everyone to sitdown at the table together and pass a bill that makes better sense than either party can pass alone. No one party has the right solutions to all problems.
51:49 would only result in whichever party is in power ramming bills down everyone's throats without regard to talking or paying any attention at all to the other side. This kind of thing is what has happened in the US House of Representatives the past 15 years from Newt Gingrich to the current leadership of Nancy Pelosi.

 

[Craig234]

I fail to see how requiring a 2/3 majority is a recipe for disaster while 51:49 isn't.

You fail to see it because you are a follower of a misguided ideology that the best thing we could do is to cripple the government's agreement to agreeon almost anything and all but shut down elected government.

This is not a good solution, it's a disaster. You don't know how to deal with the real problems, like the corruption of the system by the money of the rich, so you offer another solution, blow the place up.

Like many libertarians, you have a misguided idea of how great it would be to not have almost any government, because your fantasy has seduced you while you ignore the real result more than a drunken horny divorcee ignores the reasons he got divorced in the first place when he calls his ex in the middle of the night to get laid and remarry.

You went on to praise the stagnation in recent history - without noticing that in many ways the government's has been a historic disaster where the only the agreed on was to serve the rich, who have done very well while the house burns down for lack of any agreement how to put out the fire. The last 30 years have seen very little constructive programs able to get passed compared to the many in history that have made the nation stronger. As things fall apart and the uncontrolled people like Wall Street run amok stealing the silverware, you say 'great'.

 

[Craig234]

nah, I'd rest with the point that more people have hopped onto the easy street of "created existences", they suck up the wealth created by those NOW slaving hard at labour intensive work, they are the sergeants to those LORDS of the coin.
typically they have avoided manual labour positions for highly educated doctorates, were they tell the "commoners" how to live....in accordance to the coin LORD!
A pr position where they justify abhorrent wealth in a world in which 20% starve to death annually!
better them then us hey? you sound like a catholic priest with your abductive words, mean while the coin continues to materialised in the accounts of the coin Lordss.
bad cop, good cop!
did you just watch oliver twist, after sucking a scooby doo, gay bud?
hard to argue with a man who splits ass pubes.

Strream of unconsciouness.

 

[StageLeft]

Every other county has strict educational requirements for immigration..like Canada must have a BS or professional skill. Not USA we take idiots in droves.

Actually, the USA has strict requirements, too. I remember learning about them intimately when immigrating here. The problem is simply they are not enforced. They are if you go through formal channels via USCIS but since immigration control allows so many to hop the border all those people get a pass.

 

[Avvocato Effetti]

California was built on hard work and hope for the future.

California has declined because of limited work and no hope for the future.

 

[theevilsharpie]

The "Fall" of California?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

California has the most educated, productive, and innovative workforce in the US. The technologies and businesses that will drive the US economy out of the recession and into the next economic book will be largely based in this state.

Mark this post.

 

[Craig234]

California was built on hard work and hope for the future.

California has declined because of limited work and no hope for the future.

Yes, I see the problem with no hope from Sharpie following your post. So, how did you get an exemption the commandment to not lie? Indeed, I just saw you 'lie with a man'.

 

[Avvocato Effetti]

Yes, I see the problem with no hope from Sharpie following your post. So, how did you get an exemption the commandment to not lie? Indeed, I just saw you 'lie with a man'.

Could you explain this in more detail?

 

[MotF Bane]

The "Fall" of California?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

California has the most educated, productive, and innovative workforce in the US. The technologies and businesses that will drive the US economy out of the recession and into the next economic book will be largely based in this state.

Mark this post.

You can consider your post marked.

 

[Craig234]

Could you explain this in more detail?

Sure. There's not a lot more needed - which point?

 

[Avvocato Effetti]

The reason California is in dire financial straits is simple:

First, remove all federal government subsidies from the equation, then;

Gap between sales and cost of sales in the formative years of California was large.

Gap between sales and cost of sales today is very, very narrow.

 

[Craig234]

The reason California is in dire financial straits is simple:

First, remove all federal government subsidies from the equation, then;

Gap between sales and cost of sales in the formative years of California was large.

Gap between sales and cost of sales today is very, very narrow.

The reason for the deficit is very simple. The spending exceeds the income.

Thank you very much.

Next week on Avaccato's simple posts:

The reason for high rates of teen preganncy is very simple. Too many teens having sex.