What Caused the Rise and Fall of California?

[Zebo]

Huh? Prop 13 is about not allowing the appreciation of real estate for taxation of more than 1% per year.

That should either be repealed for commercial real estate or anothe rway to tax more fairly found, not letting business keep avoiding tax fairness as they sell corporations owning the property.

For residential, I don't have a specific suggestion - somewhere between leaving it as it is to providing some but less protection for the older, cash-poor homeowners who can't afford the big tax increases.

Maybe a creative plan like accruing the higher taxes while the person owns the home.

Not quite - Prop 13 freezes valuation and thus taxation at 1976 levels or when you bought it, which ever is later. And freezes maximum rate at 1% of appraisal.

 

[Agman]

I have to add that California is not alone. Texas will be the next California. Texas gained a huge population migration from Lousianna after Hurricane Katrina that have not returned to their home state. Texas has also gained through migration from California and other states, and illegal imigration (the flood isn't stopping), just over 600,000 new residents between July of 2008 and July of 2009. Plus the US Census Bureau is estimating that the rate of population growth for the remainder of 2009 exceded 370,000 new residents. We're talking close to a million new people in a year and a half. Texas has passed New York for the #2 positon in population, and is now around 9 to 10 million behind California. If the rate of migration to Texas is increasing like they project, Texas will #1 in population in 5 to 6 years, and right now Texas doesn't have the infrastructure to handle this many people.

On top of the oil that Texas has that California doesn't. Plus Texas by State law is REQUIRED to have a balanced budget so these crazy deficits would not happen in Texas.

 

[Craig234]

Not quite - Prop 13 freezes valuation and thus taxation at 1976 levels or when you bought it, which ever is later. And freezes maximum rate at 1% of appraisal.

We were both wrong. I said it limits the assessed value of property to go0 up a max of 1% per year, but it's 2%. That's the main point.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

People are forgetting that California was the epicenter of the information age, and it produced a huge economic boom here, and that this happened well after scads of illegals started pouring in. California has a fiscal crisis right now, and has some longer term fiscal problems that need to be solved. However, those problems are complex and are not down to one particular variable.

- wolf

While California was the epicenter for the start of the information age most companies have long since realized that you really do not have to be in California to do business. Hence why so many companies have fled to states like Texas.

Also while Texas may be encountering a large population boom the one thing the Lone Star state has going for it other then its natural resources is that their laws and tax code have not completely loss all common sense when compared to California. The liberals are still a minority in Texas and as long as that remains true the people of Texas can keep a lid on over spending if they use some common sense. Lets also remember that government does not create wealth, government only spends wealth.

 

[Craig234]

On top of the oil that Texas has that California doesn't. Plus Texas by State law is REQUIRED to have a balanced budget so these crazy deficits would not happen in Texas.

From memory, if this is wrong:

1. CA may be the only oil state who doesn't charge for oil being extracted.

2. CA's constitution requires a balanced budget.

Every time this is discussed, the 1/3 veto of Republicans should be highlighted.

 

[Craig234]

While California was the epicenter for the start of the information age most companies have long since realized that you really do not have to be in California to do business. Hence why so many companies have fled to states like Texas.

Also while Texas may be encountering a large population boom the one thing the Lone Star state has going for it other then its natural resources is that their laws and tax code have not completely loss all common sense when compared to California. The liberals are still a minority in Texas and as long as that remains true the people of Texas can keep a lid on over spending if they use some common sense. Lets also remember that government does not create wealth, government only spends wealth.

California's golden age prospered proving you wrong. Government builds a highway = increasing prosperity.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Except your post is full of ignorant hyperbole. This has nothing to do with cutting spending which is a separate issue, and not one bit of the efforts to cut spending are prevented by this.

It's your ideological approach that has led to the problems, given that none of your efforts to curtail it have worked.

Cut spending, and then cut property taxes - but stop screwing the state for your ideology.

The act of cutting spending means no new taxes. Repealing prop 13 would be in essence a tax increase on property owners. This misleading belief that CA state politicians will not raise property taxes to obscene levels thus further driving out the middle class is naive if not out right dishonest. All that would be needed to so would be to frame the issue as a means to somehow fix "social injustices" or some other PC liberal bullshit.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

California's golden age prospered proving you wrong. Government builds a highway = increasing prosperity.

That is a very misleading statement.

California's golden age was only achievable through private enterprise making it so and being given the opportunity to flourish. Building a highway in and of itself does nothing to significantly improve the economy of the state. Do you realize how inundated California is with public works projects it cannot adequately fund right now without pull money from other budgetary sources?

 

[DucatiMonster696]

From memory, if this is wrong:

1. CA may be the only oil state who doesn't charge for oil being extracted.

2. CA's constitution requires a balanced budget.

Every time this is discussed, the 1/3 veto of Republicans should be highlighted.

A veto which has been used to stop liberal Dems from further worsening our budgetary problems. CA Dems have fought tooth and nail to continue the unsustainable funding levels for the massive "social program" ( aka socialist welfare and state employee pension complex) in the state, hence why CA houses 1/3rd of all the nations welfare recipients on top of the flood of illegals in the state demanding services and "rights".

 

[Craig234]

That is a very misleading statement.

California's golden age was only achievable through private enterprise making it so and being given the opportunity to flourish. Building a highway in and of itself does nothing to significantly improve the economy of the state. Do you realize how inundated California is with public works projects it cannot adequately fund right now without pull money from other budgetary sources?

Duh. Government helps private industries create wealth, as one of the things they do, like creating a road.

You really felt it needed to be said the road without any businesses doesn't make money? Wow.

 

[werepossum]

Never ending Deficit Spending and the recent Economic Downturn. The Deficit is exacerbated in California due to some very poorly designed Proposition and Tax Laws which gives the Populace the ability to make Law all kinds of Programs, but the Legislators have an almost impossible ability to raise Taxes to Fund those Programs. The only solution to that conundrum is to Borrow $.

Such an arrangement is destined for Failure.

Quite true, and destined to be repeated on a national basis, regardless of which party is in power. The only exception is that in most places the limitations on revenue are not statutory, but merely the self-limiting nature of tax increases. If you remove X percent of the private economy via taxation, there is now 100 - X percent left to generate your tax revenue next year. Only if politicians can hold spending increases to growth can we even continue to break even, and that isn't happening.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Duh. Government helps private indusries create wealth, as one of the things they do, like creatig a road.

You really felt it needed to be said the road without any businesses doesn't make money? Wow.

Government can help (mainly by staying out the way and giving tax breaks, loosing up restrictive regulations ) and it can hinder (taxes and over regulation to name a few) but it does not create wealth. Maybe that may sound odd in your Marxist view of the world but unfortunately history has proven this to be true.

This is basic economics 101. As I stated before CA's government didn't create the tech revolution which gave the state economy a boom. Sure it may have aided (mainly by staying out of the way) and benefited from it but it certainly did not create or push forward the boundaries of technology which lead to the raise of well known tech companies.

 

[Craig234]

Government can help (mainly by staying out the way and giving tax breaks, loosing up restrictive regulations ) and it can hinder (taxes and over regulation to name a few) but it does not create wealth. Maybe that may sound odd in your Marxist view of the world but unfortunately history has proven this to be true.

This is basic economics 101. As I stated before CA's government didn't create the tech revolution which gave the state economy a boom. Sure it may have aided (mainly by staying out of the way) and benefited from it but it certainly did not create it or push forward the boundaries of technology which lead to the raise of well known tech companies.

No, you sound like an idiot. Why don't I accuse you of folloiwing Main Kampf for all your opinions?

 

[DucatiMonster696]

No, you sound like an idiot. Why don't I accuse you of folloiwing Main Kampf for all your opinions?

If you can find any quotes of mine supporting socialism, blaming Jews for stuff, etc feel free.

 

[Craig234]

If you can find any quotes of mine supporting socialism, blaming Jews for stuff, etc feel free.

If you can find any quotes of mine saying to get rid of all private industry and convert to communism, then you can say your idiocy.

 

[JS80]

Except your post is full of ignorant hyperbole. This has nothing to do with cutting spending which is a separate issue, and not one bit of the efforts to cut spending are prevented by this.

It's your ideological approach that has led to the problems, given that none of your efforts to curtail it have worked.

Cut spending, and then cut property taxes - but stop screwing the state for your ideology.

Where do you see a revenue drop?

 

[glenn1]

Short version, the folks of California looked at their pretty good situation (natural resources, human capital, tolerant culture, relaxed business environment) and tried to turn good into perfection. Pile decades of well-intentioned but misguided social experiments, frivolous spending on vanity programs, and heavy-handed government intervention, and you wind up with a self-reinforcing negative feedback loop that more than undid the advantages the state began with.

 

[JS80]

Duh. Government helps private industries create wealth, as one of the things they do, like creating a road.

You really felt it needed to be said the road without any businesses doesn't make money? Wow.

Sorry, government is not necessary to create roads. See toll roads.

 

[theeedude]

CA has a broken constitution where its easy to pass spending bills without paying for them.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Texas has also gained through migration from California and other states, and illegal imigration (the flood isn't stopping), just over 600,000 new residents between July of 2008 and July of 2009. Plus the US Census Bureau is estimating that the rate of population growth for the remainder of 2009 exceded 370,000 new residents. We're talking close to a million new people in a year and a half.

I find this very interesting. So, people really are fleeing other states for the seeming economic and job-market oasis that is Texas? Texas probably has 1 million Michigan refugees by now.

But has the Texas chicken-fried gravy train left the station yet or will the Texas economy and job market continue to be one of the nation's least worst?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Sorry, government is not necessary to create roads. See toll roads.

That depends on the nature of the road and the route. What happens if you need to build your road through some sucker's 1 mile x 20 mile parcel right at mile 10 on the 20 mile side and he won't sell that portion of land or give you permission to do it? (Under real capitalism he has a right to own his land and no court would have the legal authority to force him off of it nor to tell him what to do with his land.)

How great of a damper would toll roads (or "pay as you drive" roads) put on our nation's economy and people's freedom? Would the lower classes be able to afford to drive to work or would they be restricted to their dwellings? What kind of a damper would it place on commerce?

What really complicates this issue is that we're not talking about the production of widgets, but rather an item that is not very susceptible to competition because land only exists in finite quantities and there is really only one direct route between points A and B. That sort of a situation--infrastructure--is a good function of government.

 

[JS80]

That depends on the nature of the road and the route. What happens if you need to build your road through some sucker's 1 mile x 20 mile parcel right at mile 10 on the 20 mile side and he won't sell that portion of land or give you permission to do it? (Under real capitalism he has a right to own his land and no court would have the legal authority to force him off of it nor to tell him what to do with his land.)

How great of a damper would toll roads (or "pay as you drive" roads) put on our nation's economy and people's freedom? Would the lower classes be able to afford to drive to work or would they be restricted to their dwellings? What kind of a damper would it place on commerce?

Yes, but my point was to counter Craig's worship of govt, that govt is NOT necessary for private business to exist, but govt needs private business in order for IT to exist.

 

[lothar]

Never ending Deficit Spending and the recent Economic Downturn. The Deficit is exacerbated in California due to some very poorly designed Proposition and Tax Laws which gives the Populace the ability to make Law all kinds of Programs, but the Legislators have an almost impossible ability to raise Taxes to Fund those Programs. The only solution to that conundrum is to Borrow $.

Such an arrangement is destined for Failure.

Here's a better solution.
Cut spending.

 

[lothar]

From memory, if this is wrong:

1. CA may be the only oil state who doesn't charge for oil being extracted.

2. CA's constitution requires a balanced budget.
Every time this is discussed, the 1/3 veto of Republicans should be highlighted.

1.) They don't charge for oil being extracted because there is barely anything to extract due to strict government regulations?

2.) How has CA been surviving prior to 2000?
It's not like the 1/3 veto measure was recently entacted.
CA has been fine in years prior to 2000. Don't blame the 1/3 veto for today's situation.

 

[lothar]

CA has a broken constitution where its easy to pass spending bills without paying for them.

BOTH spending and tax bills should require 2/3 vote.
Problem solved.